Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Baroness Altmann

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 22nd April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, briefly, I support everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, said. I also thank the Minister: I recognise that there has been significant movement on the part of the Government on some of the other issues.

Unfortunately, although just constraining the mandatory power in the way the Government have proposed is better than it was before, it is not okay for members. Normally, if there is an expectation of market failure, we would wait until that failure is proven before we pass primary legislation, in case it were to arise. It has not been proven. Indeed, if the schemes that invest in the way the Government want—and in accordance with the voluntary accord we are trying to mimic—perform better, as the Government expect, then others are likely to follow, but forcing them to do so against their better judgment cannot be right. There is no compensation if the investment decisions go wrong. The Government have, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, said, inexplicably excluded listed investment companies, which will potentially hold exactly the investments that the Government wish pension schemes to invest in. Therefore, it does not seem that the Government themselves are the best judge of how to invest.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in insisting on the omission of mandation in Motion A1. The proposal has made the Government unpopular in the City and, as an ex-businesswoman and ex-pension trustee, I urge Ministers to think more radically and get rid of the power altogether, even in its constrained form.

Moving on, I thank the Minister and the Minister of State, Torsten Bell, for Amendments 85C, 85D and 85E in Motion D, which respond positively to my proposal for a review of public sector pensions. The work promised by the Government Actuary’s Department should provide the transparent analysis of this complex area that I have been calling for, with the support of the Centre for Policy Studies, the economist Neil Record, my noble friends Lady Noakes and Lord Moynihan of Chelsea, and the coverage in the Times and the Telegraph. It was reassuring to know from the Minister that the important complementary work responding to the Public Accounts Committee’s concerns about the whole of government accounts 2023-24 will be published within the one-year timeframe in the amendment.

I have been addressing not just a technical matter but serious problems, such as intergenerational unfairness and the long-term affordability of our important public service pensions. I trust that, as a result of the new work, we will be able to tackle the issues better and in a much more informed way.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Baroness Altmann

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 20th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction and her helpful remarks relating to Motion D, which is mostly what I will speak to in my remarks.

The Government say that allowing small pots to be moved without member consent after just 12 months is essential because, otherwise, any longer period would be detrimental to scheme members. I do not think that would stand up to market scrutiny. This is about providers not wanting to have to administer small pots, the economics of which they find rather challenging. As to the idea that if people with small pots move somewhere else or are moved somewhere else, that will lead to lower fees being charged by the pension providers, I think the providers simply making higher profits is the far more likely outcome.

It will not particularly be detrimental to most members, but for those whose money is moved, without their consent and potentially without their knowledge, I have concerns that allowing just 12 months and then shipping the money off elsewhere to another scheme, which could be worse and could perform worse but just happens to be an approved scheme under the regulator’s supervision, would be a rather dangerous thing to approve after such a short space of time. Members may have paused their contributions temporarily, and I point out to the Minister that members who have decided to opt out of auto-enrolment, who will then be re-enrolled after three years, may decide not to opt out but the money that they previously put into the scheme will have gone somewhere else. This to me suggests that the policy needs to be reconsidered.

Yes, of course, we need to look at the economics of auto-enrolment but we have to also balance fairness to members who have paused temporarily, whether it is for unpaid carers’ leave—perhaps a relative who is terminally ill and it has gone on for slightly over the one year, but their money may have been moved before they get back to their employer—with the costs to providers of administering small pots. I do not believe 12 months is the right balance. It is too short.

I just ask noble Lords whether they feel we should allow a bank to move somebody’s money in their account to a different bank because they have not got a lot in there and the bank cannot make any profit on keeping that current account. I do not think we would feel the same—that after just 12 months, without member consent, their money could be shipped off to another bank.

I agree that we have to find some way of administering small pots. I hope that, when the noble Baroness points out that there is a minimum of 12 months being provided for in the Bill and that regulations will set the required time period, after further consultation there is a chance that we will perhaps have a longer period than the current 12 months. On that basis, I hope that the situation for small pots will turn out to be better after regulations than it currently would seem. I will not press my amendment tonight.

Very briefly on Motion K1 in the name of noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, I too am extremely concerned about the problem of the AEAT pension scheme members. I feel that there is an obligation in some way on government to look more carefully and to take careful consideration of the findings of the various inquiries that have happened more recently. I hope that, when the meeting takes place, those of us who are particularly interested in the AEAT situation will be able to have a proper discussion with the Ministers on that issue. I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, Motion J1 reintroduces my proposal for a review of the long-term affordability, intergenerational unfairness, fiscal sustainability and accounting treatment of public service pension schemes. I am trying to help the Government to fill a lacuna in their important work on pensions, so I was taken aback by the Commons’ reason for rejecting it—namely,

“that it is not necessary to duplicate existing information regarding public sector pension schemes”.

The presentation of the liability represented by public sector pensions is widely seen as inadequate, and the PAC itself has expressed concerns—in particular that pension liabilities are not being presented in a way that allows Parliament properly to understand their real costs in the long term.

I will highlight four reasons why a review is needed. First, the cost is huge. As we have heard repeatedly, unfunded pension liabilities represent the second-largest government liability after gilts. Currently, we commit future taxpayers to about £60 billion of new expenditure every year, in the form of a stream of index-linked new expenditure. According to the OBR, the long-term liability is £1.4 trillion, but it may be more as a lot depends on the assumptions made.

Secondly, it is an unfunded pay-as-you-go scheme. The problem with that is that the current generation of older and former public sector workers are taking money from younger generations of workers already weighed down by trying to finance housing, young families and, in some cases, repaying student loans. This is unfair, and it is why I put intergenerational unfairness at the heart of the review.

Thirdly, the coalition did well to reform some public sector pensions following the Hutton review, as the Minister acknowledged, but the new arrangements have turned out to be more costly than expected. Sadly, growth, which helps to ease things, has been modest. Moreover, substantial increases in the pay and size of the public sector make things look better in the short term, as employer and employee contributions increase. However, this is a mirage, as it stores up even more trouble for the future, as greater payouts on higher salaries will be needed as those people in the system retire.

Fourthly, there are serious accounting issues, as we know from the PAC. The scale of liabilities is not clearly visible from the public accounts. Moreover, as I have learned from my unique experience as a civil servant and a Cabinet Office Minister, the costs of future pensions are not properly taken into account in decision-making across the public sector—for example, on restructuring or adding to the workforce. In conclusion, there is a real need to establish whether the system is fair and sustainable, and whether anything could be done to improve things.

I emphasise that I support the work of public sector workers and that I am not making any recommendations. That is for the experts, who would look at the whole area objectively, and it is for the Government to decide what, if anything, needs to be done.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Baroness Altmann

Report stage
Thursday 5th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 31 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Altrincham. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, for putting their names to it. I will also speak to Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sater, a charity professional in the best meaning of the word. She is very sorry not to be here today. Her amendment is in the same spirit as ours, and she is right that the impact on charities is very important and should be kept under review.

His Majesty’s Official Opposition will continue to be a voice for small and medium-sized enterprises. We have heard, time and time again, from small businesses about the weight of burden that this Government continue to pile upon them—tax after tax, regulation after regulation. The Minister did not even answer my question at Question Time this morning about whether he would consider options for exempting SMEs from the burden of regulation. This amendment presents such an opportunity for the Government and would demonstrate that they listen; to show that they take seriously the mountains of complexity heaped upon small businesses and small social enterprises; and to provide some measure of relief and some acknowledgement publicly that these cumulative pressures cannot be ignored indefinitely.

The Minister suggested in Committee that only some 10% of employees in small and medium-sized enterprises have pension contributions through salary sacrifice that exceed the proposed cap. That may well be the case today, but with public awareness, more SMEs may introduce it. We on these Benches would like to see that figure grow, as saving for a pension is one of the most desirable and cost-effective methods of saving, as I am always explaining to the next generation. Salary sacrifice is also one of the few tools available to a small employer competing against a large corporation for talent and productive workers.

An independent review over a year would allow us all to consider the impact of the changes on SMEs and charities. I beg to move.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 31, and I support Amendments 32 and 33. All these amendments seek to help the Government to recognise that there is a serious impact if this Bill goes through as currently proposed, particularly on employers in smaller and medium-sized companies. I believe that the Minister confirmed that some 99% of employers in auto-enrolment are SMEs. The costs of complying with pension auto-enrolment have already been significant. Some of those employers have been advised that it is a “no-brainer” for them to use salary sacrifice as a way of mitigating some of the extra costs involved in having to provide pensions for their staff who want to stay in them.

We have imposed these extra costs on employers already; some employers have been good enough to put in more than the auto-enrolment minimum. What this Bill would do is to pile extra costs on to them, because if they are using salary sacrifice, they will have to renegotiate employment contracts, change payroll software systems, change the information that they give to their workforce about their pension arrangements and answer lots of questions that are bound to arise as a result of any of the changes that are proposed.

It should therefore be incumbent on the Government—indeed, it is quite astonishing that this was not already done before we got the legislation—that there is a proper, independent review of the costs imposed on smaller and medium-sized employers as a direct result of this legislation. That should inform the way in which the legislation is implemented, so that we try to do whatever we can to avoid the kind of problems that we have seen, where there are implications for employment levels, salary levels and indeed for pension investment and provision as an unintended consequence of perhaps well-meaning legislation, or legislation designed to hit an entirely different target, that is potentially going to fall on both employers and their workforces. We have seen that the extra national insurance costs have had an impact on employment levels already. I ask the Minister again: what is the rush in getting this legislation on to the statute books before we know its implications and what it will mean in practice for the corporate sector? First, can the noble Lord explain the rush and, secondly, consider putting this on hold until the full implications are better understood?

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Baroness Altmann

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th February 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak first to Amendments 12 and 24, which would exempt small and medium-sized enterprises, charities and social enterprises from the salary sacrifice pension contribution cap introduced by the Bill. I also welcome Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, requiring a review of the ability of SMEs to recruit and retain staff.

Small and medium enterprises have been hammered under this Government. They have introduced policies that will cost businesses £25 billion annually in tax compliance alone, according to the firm Together Accounting. Their previous NICs hike added a further £25 billion burden and there are business rate hikes, minimum wage increases and the Employment Rights Act. Is it any wonder that 52 businesses per 10,000 are entering insolvency, nearly double the rate from just five years ago? The Federation of Small Businesses reports that 63% of businesses now cite tax as their primary concern. Business confidence has plummeted. This is something that I have spoken about many times, and the Conservative Party stands with small businesses. They are the lifeblood of our communities, our jobs market and our economy.

Our amendment tries to shield SMEs and charities from what is effectively yet another damaging tax by exempting them from this policy. Given the onslaught SMEs have suffered under the Government, the rationale for this needs little explanation. SMEs operate on thin margins, often without sophisticated accounting mechanisms or payroll and accounting teams. They will be disproportionately affected by this policy and should be exempt.

Turning to charities, before the Budget was even confirmed, the Charity Finance Group ran a survey of the sector specifically on the question of salary sacrifice. It found, and I urge the Committee to note these figures carefully, that 81% of charities reported that the salary sacrifice change would have a negative impact on their ability to offer competitive benefits to staff. Nearly seven in 10 had already started to reduce headcount or expected to do so in the near future, and that was before this further measure. It is not surprising that they are worried, as in my experience charities often have more complex employment arrangements: seasonal working, moving jobs, and weekly rather than monthly pay. They also often have much less sophisticated payroll systems.

CFG warned explicitly that, for charities operating on tight margins, salary sacrifice has been a critical tool and a way both to support staff and to achieve meaningful savings on employer national insurance at the same time, stretching limited resources further while enabling employees to build better pension provision. To cap that mechanism is to remove one of the few cost-efficient tools available to organisations that cannot increase prices, raise equity finance or easily diversify their income when grant funding or public contracts do not keep pace with costs.

The wider context of what has happened to charities under the Bill matters here, too. Last year, on Report, the House of Lords carried amendments to the then national insurance contributions Bill that would have protected small charities with revenues under £1 million from the main NICs rise. However, the Government rejected them, and we have seen what happened there. The Government have said that they want to build a stronger economy and a thriving civil society. That ambition is not well served by a policy that removes from smaller employers and civil society organisations one of the most effective tools that they have to compete for talent and support their people in saving for retirement.

Amendment 26 asks that, within 12 months of this Act coming into force, the Government commission and lay before Parliament an independent review of its impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, including administrative costs, compliance burdens, employment costs and the ability of SMEs to attract and retain staff—and, crucially, that this be assessed in the context of the cumulative changes to employer national insurance since July 2024.

Time and again, the Government’s approach has displayed a worrying lack of understanding of how small firms actually operate, how thin their margins are, how sensitive they are to cumulative costs and how easily confidence can be shaken. We saw it with the previous national insurance hike and in the rushed recalibration over pubs, and we see it all over again in this Bill and the rush to pass it when the vital detail is still to be settled. We know that the revenue collected will almost halve in the second year of implementation, so there will be lots of new compliance costs and an uncertain future.

If the Government are confident that this measure will not materially damage SMEs, they should welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that through an independent review. If they are serious about growth, entrepreneurship and avoiding further damaging U-turns, they should look at the cumulative picture. Given the scale of pessimism now facing the small business community and the stakes for employment and growth, I urge the Government to accept this amendment. SMEs do not trust the Government to act in their interests. If the Treasury were to adopt such an amendment—as well as the associated one for Northern Ireland, where there are so many SMEs—perhaps this trust might start to be rebuilt. I beg to move.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have added my name to all of the amendments in this group. Again, I think that they are very important. I am pleased to have added my support for my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lord Altrincham and Lady Kramer—if I may call her my noble friend—as well as for the noble Lords, Lord de Clifford and Lord Londesborough. All of them are picking up on the huge risks that are being posed in terms of additional administrative costs, burdens and complexity for small and medium-sized businesses, charities and social enterprises, which, as my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe explained, have already had so many extra burdens placed on them.

I reiterate that I hope that the Minister will recognise that we need this analysis and this type of work before we make the primary legislation that we are considering here, rather than afterwards. I also hope that, if the Minister does not have ready answers, modelling or analysis that would address the issues these amendments are trying to understand in more detail, we can, as we have heard before in Committee, put some of this on hold until we have a better understanding of what the real-world impacts will be.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Baroness Altmann

Committee stage
Thursday 5th February 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie in proposing a review of pension awareness and saving among young people.

When I had the honour to review the state pension age for the DWP in 2021-22, I was struck by two things that strengthened the case for better policy in this area. First, I found it much more difficult to get young people or their representatives, or indeed middle career workers, to engage in my review. Those who did were keen to keep pension contributions down and they did not believe the state pension would still be universal by the time they reached the retirement age of, say, 70. They were worried about buying a flat, as my noble friend has said, looking after their children and paying back their student loans.

Secondly, the level of financial education was dire. Schools were focusing well on human rights, the environment and ESG, which was discussed under the previous amendment, but not on pensions or financial management. They were not teaching the importance of early saving, the magical impact of compound interest, the value of a pension matched by the employer and the risk of new sources of profit like cryptocurrencies. Much more such education is needed in our schools but the Department of Education was resistant, partly because teachers are also often a little short on financial education. This is an important area and I am sure the Pensions Commission will look at it, but my noble friend is right to highlight what a big job we have to do.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I add my words of support to the concept being promoted by my noble friend Lord Younger. I hope the Government will look into this, as it might well be a good topic to task regulators with in making sure that either they or pension schemes themselves are helping people to understand pension schemes better, how they work and the free money that goes along with a pension contribution in terms of your own money. There is, as I say, extra free money added by, usually, your employer and other taxpayers. I do not think young people always understand just how beneficial saving in a pension can be relative to, let us say, saving in a bank account or an ISA, or indeed the value of investing. It would be in the interests of the regulators and, indeed, the providers to help people to understand that. The Government’s role in guiding that and setting up this kind of review could be very valuable.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Baroness Altmann

Committee stage
Monday 26th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I, too, have a number of amendments in this group and I will address my remarks mainly to them. Amendments 99 and 106 recommend removing the specific figure of £25 billion from the Bill and replacing it with a figure to be determined by the Government nearer the time, I hope, after detailed consultation.

On the last day in Committee, when we debated Amendment 88 on small pots, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, which proposed a monetary limit of £10,000, the Minister rejected the amendment on the grounds that

“the Government are not persuaded that it is sensible to hardwire the cap in primary legislation”.—[Official Report, 22/1/26; col. GC 188.]

Quite right. The same applies here: my amendment follows exactly that principle. I am concerned about the risks involved in tying primary legislation to a fixed monetary sum.

First, a change in market conditions could render it inappropriate. Secondly, such a large sum risks stymieing the development of newer companies and gives an exceptional competitive advantage to those providers already of the required scale. There is no evidence—I have been searching—to suggest that big is always best and there is certainly no academic proof that £25 billion, £10 billion or any other number is the right dividing line between successful funds and failing funds.

Newer entrants with an interesting approach to member service, digital engagement or innovative investment may well take time to break into the market, but just because they have not reached what the Bill determines is the magic number should not mean that they are forced to close, which is what the Bill would do, in effect.

The Minister said that consolidation and scale will mean

“better outcomes for members … lower investment fees, increased returns and access to diversified investments, as well as better governance and expertise in running schemes”.—[Official Report, 22/1/26; col. GC 202.]

That may well be the case for many, but deliberately disadvantaging innovation and putting up barriers that damage recent or newer entrants, regardless of their merits, runs counter to those intended outcomes over the longer term. Using collective vehicles, for example, run by already established experts such as closed-ended investment companies, can replace the need for in-house expertise at each of the big pension funds. Indeed, that option is already available but is being discouraged by the Bill.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, a correlation is not the same as a causative impact. Putting £25 billion into the Bill creates a big issue with some of the newer companies that will fall into the vacuum between the new entrant pathway, which does not start until a scheme is established after 2030, and the transitional pathway, which requires this fixed £10 billion—I could have tabled amendments on that, but £25 billion is the same principle—if they have not reached that level.

What is worse—I tried to indicate this last week—is that, although I know that the Government want to inject certainty by including these numerical figures, unfortunately they are also blocking the progress and potentially forcing the closure of a number of schemes that have digital-first methodologies right now but have not been established long enough to reach the required scale and to which the market to raise growth capital is currently shut. Who would lend money to a newer company that may or may not reach the scale required by the particular date?

The Government need to think again about the merits of using a fixed number, as the Minister mentioned last week. I would be happy to meet officials or Ministers to go through the rationale that has had this damaging effect in the market. I hope that we will not give a hostage to fortune by specifying a particular number in the Bill that may or may not prove to be right, wrong or damaging. I hope that the Minister will help the Committee to understand whether the Government might consider this principle.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 91 and 95 in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes, to which I have added my name. I apologise for not being able to contribute to the Committee’s discussions on Thursday because of competing business on the Floor of the House. I have read Hansard and I should record that I share the reservations expressed about mandation, a subject on which I have received many well-argued requests and emails. I commend the arguments that have been well put by my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie on the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. I particularly dislike powers delayed into the future. If the Government decide that they need to legislate later, they can bring in another Bill that the House can scrutinise in the light of contemporary evidence.

I turn to the amendments in this group, so well argued by my noble friend Lady Noakes. I am uneasy, as others are, about the overemphasis on creating size and scale in the Bill: £25 billion is a big fund and, as my noble friend Lady Altmann said, it does not seem to be well evidenced. It is a Labour trend that needs to be treated with some scepticism. We see it in local government reorganisation, in rail nationalisation and now in the proposals for the police. I know from my business experience, which noble Lords know I always come from, that mergers of any kind always have substantial costs and that you need smaller, pushy innovators to keep sectors competitive. This might be contentious, but Aldi was good for Tesco because it kept us on our toes—and even better for the consumer, the equivalent of the saver in this case. The point is that reorganisations of any kind always have costs and only sometimes have benefits.

We have seen the growth in recent years of money purchase funds that are almost entirely digital, and they have brought beneficial competition to the market. We risk eliminating the next generation of innovation, real value creation and indeed British unicorn funds, generated by competition, if we leave the Bill as it is.

We must not allow good performers to be snuffed out by the movement to bigger schemes. That is why we are asking the Minister to look at excluding master trusts and group pension plans that deliver good investment performance from the scale and size requirements. Performance is, after all, what matters to those saving for a pension. Size, scale and growth are not everything, popular though they tend to be with the fund managers who benefit. Returns matter more, but the Bill at present rather underplays them in favour of scale. My noble friend Lady Noakes’s amendments are just what is needed, and I look forward to hearing how the Minister is going to solve the problem that she has identified.