Higher Education and Research Bill

Baroness Neville-Jones Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, I too support the amendments. I am afraid I did not speak in the Second Reading debate—I was detained unavoidably elsewhere—so I express my interest as having recently retired from 19 years as the scientific adviser of the Association of Medical Research Charities. I clearly outlived my usefulness there. I am also a member of boards of a number of medical research charities.

It seems incredible that the charity sector is not mentioned and represented in this group of activities. We know that Cancer Research UK funds the majority of research into cancer. The British Heart Foundation funds the majority of research into heart diseases. It has buildings and professors of cardiology. The Wolfson trust funds a large number of research buildings in universities around the UK. Arthritis Research UK funds the majority of research into arthritis. There is also the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, where a huge amount of work is going on, supported solely by the research charity sector.

Another element to this is that many of the charities are funded solely by raising funds from the public—from patients and their carers. In a way they represent that constituency. It is a vital sector, yet they are not represented in UKRI. We must correct that. I hope the noble Lord will take these amendments seriously.

[Baroness Neville-Jones (Con)]

My Lords, a number of points have been raised in this group of amendments. I hope when he replies my noble friend the Minister will not lose sight of the extremely pertinent questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, about the ability of research councils to form partnerships and to do so without having to seek permission.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very good, sharp little debate. I look forward to the Minister’s response. Given his previous background in your Lordships’ House as a spokesman on behalf of the Department of Health, presumably he will speak with a bit more direct experience than would otherwise be expected. It must be very clear that, whereas in the first two groups of amendments we were talking about the mechanics and he was able to guide us away from any suggestion that the Bill might be amended, he is now firmly up against the fact that the culture is sorted here, but the mechanics are not. We will have to look very hard at the points made, with some force, by all those who have spoken.

We have signed up to most of the amendments in this grouping and support the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Sharkey. They made it absolutely clear that what we are talking about is completely different from desirable changes. It is about ensuring that the huge success we have seen in the development of research—particularly medical research, but it applies to other research councils—is wired into the structure. We must have an assurance from the Minister that that will be the case.

What was not said, but is available for those who have read the briefings, is that the current situation is also of concern to charities. They feel that they have been slightly taken for granted. If there had not been the change proposed here for UKRI they would probably have come forward with suggestions that they should have been brought in at this stage, if they had not been before, to the Medical Research Council and others. That is not a new initiative; it has been a bit of sand in the oyster for some time. It would be appropriate to do as they suggest. We have already been reminded that the Nurse review made it clear that charities felt that, given,

“the overlap in their interests with the Research Councils, it is important that strong contacts are developed and maintained between the Councils and the charitable sector”.

Indeed, Sir Paul, in the final section of his report, says:

“To facilitate such interactions and to ensure that proper knowledge and understanding of the entire UK research endeavour is maintained, I recommend particular care is paid to ensuring there are strong interactions between the charitable research sector and the Research Councils”.


That is a coded phrase, but it is fairly clear that his intention would be that charities, which make so much of a difference to what we are doing and bringing in patients—they have been doing this for so long and have so much experience to offer—should be hard-wired into what we are about.

Our Amendment 486A is subsidiary in a sense because the primary purpose of these amendments is to make sure that charities are involved going forward. One amendment, which we support, suggests that the mechanics of this should be done by continuing the arrangement that those charities which currently fund jointly with research councils should be able to do so and there should be nothing in the Bill to prevent that. We suggest that, in looking at this, the Government might also look at the question of making sure that the UKRI has that capacity as well and there is no problem in any legal framework about it. We support these amendments.

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[Lord Patel]

Perhaps I might expand on that. I had always assumed that the research councils will be able to form partnerships. If what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, just said is true, the Minister needs to emphasise that because it changes the whole working relationship between the research councils and UKRI.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

Could there not be a delegated authority to do this?

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

The Minister asked me to withdraw the amendment but I think we have started a whole new debate—this letter will be very interesting when it appears. I thank the Minister for his response, particularly for nuancing the whole issue of taking something back for Report for stiffening up, which is a very nice phrase and we look forward to this stiffening up on Report. I thank noble Lords for their contributions, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. I assure him that he has not outlived his usefulness. There is a great deal of usefulness still to come.

This has been a hugely interesting debate. Two things have emerged from it. First, recognising the importance of the charitable sector for research, particularly medical research, by the councils themselves or indeed UKRI is something that has to be addressed. I hope the Minister will address it when it comes back on Report. Secondly, partnerships are now a fundamental issue. I agree totally with the noble Lord, Lord Patel. The understanding of most people in this Committee—other than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern—was that the councils would be able, as they are now, to make their own arrangements for commercial and other partnerships, either with charities or bodies overseas. If that is not to be the case, a whole new bureaucracy has just emerged from this debate. But I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I also support Amendments 479A, 480 and 481A to 481D. I remind the House of my already declared interest as a so-called lay member of the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council.

The case for a non-executive chairman has been made extremely cogently by both the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and my noble friend Lord Selborne, and I hardly need repeat what they have said. Certainly, anyone who has read the corporate code knows that the case for non-executive chairmen is spelled out extremely clearly and cogently and that the notion of having an executive chairman is roundly condemned. The first works much better than the second and avoids conflicts of interest. The two functions are different and should be carried out by different people. Innovate UK will be much stronger in its performance if it is chaired by someone who has a science-related background but is also in the business community. It is crucial that we should make that link.

As to membership, having had personal experience of council membership—I am not the only person in the Chamber so to have done—the EPSRC has one of the bigger budgets and one of the bigger boards. I talked to the chief executive, who told me that there is a limit of 18. He said it operates customarily on about 15 or 16. I do not think the boards need to be quite as large if we have UKRI also on the scene. However, we should be practical about this. All of the members of the board of the council have full-time careers and are doing a full-time job—this is something extra that they do—and some are very pressed indeed. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, is a good example of someone who does multifarious things. The thought that the board can operate with the subcommittees that it has, with the travel it engages in and the consultations that it has with the universities, and that it can do so without having both numbers and variety of people on the board—businessmen as well as people like myself and academics—is fanciful. It will weaken the total structure if one does not allow the councils to fulfil the remit that UKRI is meant to create and enable them to do.

It is important that the Government do not limit the size of the council to that which would make it difficult for it to be effective. I am not going to suggest a limit—if you want to put in a minimum, put it in—but, on the whole, the figure for the councils, certainly for the larger ones, should be in double figures.

[Lord Broers]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendments 479A and 481A. I understand the concern about the appointment of non-executive chairs because that would introduce an additional level of management, which is clearly undesirable. I feel that the disadvantages of not having a non-executive chair are quite serious, and they have been put extremely well by my noble friends Lady Brown and Lord Mair and by the noble Lord, Lord Willis.

However, one case has not been mentioned. A non-executive chair becomes absolutely critical when the members of a board feel that the CEO is not performing adequately. In that instance, under the current arrangement, presumably it will have to be the UKRI CEO, who would not have watched that person performing as the members of his or her council would have done. Although the UKRI CEO could consult with the members, the UKRI CEO will not be nearly as familiar with the situation as they are. That is, as I say, quite serious.

A possible solution, but perhaps not a satisfactory one, would be to appoint a senior council member in a somewhat similar way to the senior non-executive directors who have become fashionable on corporate boards. That senior member could act as an adviser to the CEO and perhaps chair meetings where there were concerns that the CEO had a serious conflict of interest.