Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords for an extensive, passionate and insightful debate. As noble Lords have observed throughout this debate, its quality and its conduct have been exemplary, and I believe that that has allowed the expression of differing and deeply held views. I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer for his work in introducing this Bill to the House, and I know that many noble Lords are waiting to hear from him as the sponsor.

We have all heard the debates across the country, in which campaigners on both sides have made their case with conviction and care. We have also heard the debates in the other place, and we know the previous consideration that this House has given to the topic of assisted dying. Now it is our turn to scrutinise this legislation.

I turn first to the important issue of the role of the Government, which relates in some part to the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and the amendment to it from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. The Government are neutral on the principle of assisted dying. It is a matter of conscience. Whether the Bill becomes law is a decision for Parliament, and my role, alongside that of my noble friend Lady Levitt, is to help ensure that, if this legislation is passed, it is legally and technically effective and workable. So, as with any legislation, if Parliament chooses to pass the Bill, the Government will be responsible for its implementation.

The noble Lord’s Motion refers to time being made available for consideration of amending stages. Scheduling is of course a matter for my noble friend the Government Chief Whip, who will indeed keep this under review. The Government have a duty of care to the statute book and, as such, my officials and those in the Ministry of Justice have worked with my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and the Commons sponsor Kim Leadbeater MP to offer drafting support and workability advice. This will continue throughout the passage of the Bill and is and has been usual practice.

Turning to the Motions in the name of my noble friend Lady Berger—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Can the Minister explain why, despite requests from the sponsors of the Bill, and despite the precedent which has been taken with other Bills which were Private Members’ Bills but matters of conscience, such as capital punishment and abortion, the Government are not prepared to provide time so that this House can ensure that it is properly scrutinised and considered?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I can only repeat the point I made that the Government Chief Whip will listen to the will of Parliament and will review as necessary.

The Motion and the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Berger refer to a Select Committee reporting to the House ahead of Committee of the Whole House commencing. The Select Committee should report by Friday 7 November. The outcome of these Motions and any others are indeed a matter for this House to decide on.

To the points that noble Lords have raised over whether this matter should have been for a Private Member’s Bill or a government Bill, I remind us all that, on matters of societal change, the Private Member’s Bill, with government neutrality, has long been used as the right vehicle to handle matters of sensitivity and importance such as this one. On this point of neutrality, I hope that noble Lords will understand my role and why it is not appropriate or possible for me as the Government Minister responding to respond to every point raised during the debate.

I thank the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill. As many noble Lords have highlighted, their recommendations will be important in the consideration. The content of this Bill and any delegated powers are a matter for the sponsor and Parliament. I am grateful to both committees because their recommendations will inform the scrutiny of your Lordships’ House. Noble Lords heard my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer’s opening remarks. He has already considered those reports and will continue to do so.

Many noble Lords have spoken about the importance of high-quality palliative care for all those who need it. I want to be clear that irrespective of any legislation on assisted dying, everyone must be provided with high-quality compassionate care through to the end of their life. While the majority of palliative and end-of-life care is provided by the NHS, we recognise the vital role played by the voluntary sector in supporting people at the end of their life. That is why we are providing the hospice sector with £100 million of capital funding for eligible adult and children’s hospices, to ensure that the best physical environment for care is available.

We recognise that more could be done to support people who need palliative and end-of-life care, as a number of noble Lords said. We are looking at how to improve the access, quality and sustainability of all-age palliative and end-of-life care, in line with the recently published 10-year health plan, and to make the shift from hospital to community, including making that care part of the work of neighbourhood health teams.

I thank noble Lords once again for their engagement, care and thoughtfulness during this debate. As I have said, the Government remain neutral on whether the Bill becomes law. Should Parliament pass this legislation, I can say to your Lordships’ House that it will be our responsibility to ensure that it can be implemented safely and effectively.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, this is the first debate in Committee on this important Bill so I hope that the Committee will allow me to take a minute or two to set out the approach of the Official Opposition. As my noble friend Lord Kamall and I said at Second Reading, the Official Opposition have no collective view on this Bill. Although each Member of the Opposition Front Bench will have their own view on the Bill, we will support noble Lords across the House in their scrutiny of the Bill. We will also table a small number of additional amendments where we feel that parts of the Bill need probing further. We will not seek to delay the passage of the Bill, nor will we seek to hold up progress in Committee. Instead, we will seriously engage in detailed scrutiny of the Bill so that we can collectively deliver the best possible piece of legislation.

In that regard, I respectfully pay tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for demonstrating his openness to improving the Bill already by tabling amendments that we hope to get to today and which reflect concerns that have been raised by noble Lords. I speak for all my colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench when I say that I look forward to working with him to ensure that we send a better Bill back to the other place.

The amendments in this group relate to the territorial extent of the Bill. My noble friend Lady Coffey is seeking to remove references to Wales in the Bill so that it would apply only to England. While I am not entirely persuaded that making this an England-only Bill is necessary per se, these amendments raise important questions about devolution. The core question for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, is why the Bill does not apply to the whole of the United Kingdom on the one hand or only to England on the other.

At the heart of this is, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, said—although various Acts of Parliament may put us to sleep, a speech by the noble and learned Lord never does; I was listening very carefully—that these amendments speak to the devolution settlement that we work with and the inconsistencies and confusions of that settlement. The noble and learned Lord used the word “complexity”. It is extremely complex. In this area, we have the problem that criminal law is not devolved to Wales whereas health is devolved. To pick up the point made by the noble and learned Lord, with which I respectfully agree, declaring the appropriate interest, Wales should not be regarded as inferior to Scotland. That is a point of general application.

The Scottish Parliament, as noble Lords know, is currently considering its own legislation on this topic. I hope that noble Lords have picked up that the Scottish Bill is significantly different in key ways—most markedly in the definition of terminal illness. In Scotland, it lacks the “six months to live” test which, whatever view we take, is at the heart of the Bill before us. The definition of terminal illness in the Scottish Bill is:

“For the purposes of this Act, a person is terminally ill if they have an advanced and progressive disease, illness or condition from which they are unable to recover and that can reasonably be expected to cause their premature death”.


I am not quite sure about “premature” in that context in all cases, but that is what the text says.

Leaving aside the point that those resident in one part of the United Kingdom will therefore have different rights to assistance under the law from those in another region of the United Kingdom should both Bills pass, I see the point that my noble friend Lady Coffey is making. If the people of Scotland may choose whether to have a law for terminally ill adults who wish to end their lives, why—I ask rhetorically, so to speak, looking forward to the response of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—should people in Wales not have the same choice? This is the key question that the noble and learned Lord has been presented with by this group of amendments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the opening comments of the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, which were helpful. I thank noble Lords for this debate.

I want to set out some points about the role of government Ministers. As noble Lords are well aware, the Government remain neutral on the principle of assisted dying and on the passage of this Bill. Whether the law in this area should change is absolutely and rightly a matter for Parliament. I and my noble friend Lady Levitt will speak in Committee as government Ministers responsible for ensuring that the Bill, if passed, is legally robust, effective and workable. To that end, I will not be providing a government view on the merits of proposed changes. Those are rightly a matter for noble Lords to decide. Throughout Committee, my remarks will focus only on amendments where the Government have significant workability concerns. I hope that this will be of assistance to noble Lords in their consideration of amendments. Where no comment is made, any workability concerns are less significant. The Government are unable to confirm at this stage that the current drafting of those amendments is fully workable, effective or enforceable.

Turning to the amendments in this group—

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be aware, as will your Lordships’ House generally, that Ministers have been absolutely consistent in setting out the right and proper role of officials, as is usual for a Private Member’s Bill. I will refer to that shortly. Also, if noble Lords have individual concerns, they are welcome to raise them with me.

The amendments in this group seek to restrict the eligibility criteria to apply to individuals in England only, rather than in England and Wales, as at present. These amendments would have minimal legal effect unless they are coupled with amendments to later clauses. Clause 1 is largely declaratory. This group of amendments would conflict with later operative provisions in the Bill unless consistent amendments are made to later provisions. 

I will pick up a few of the points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, raised a number of points about engagement and I would be pleased to write to her further. I have done my very best to ensure that all the questions that she laid have been answered. I hope she will accept my apologies if that is not the case, but I have certainly endeavoured to do so. I will also review points made by other noble Lords in this debate, where they are relevant to the Government.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised a question regarding legislative consent Motions. As would be expected, UK government officials have discussed these matters with Welsh government officials, and the management of the legislative consent process in the Senedd is, of course, a matter for the Welsh Government.

In closing, I will make a few general comments about engagement.

[Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)]

On the LCM point, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in the Senedd has made a statement about it not having received enough information on the conversations between the UK and Welsh Governments about why certain clauses do not engage with the LCM process. Can the Minister respond directly to that point about why this information has not been shared with the Senedd?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will certainly look into the matter that the noble Baroness raised and would be pleased to write to her. However, the first point I wanted to make here was about engagement with the Welsh Government. Of course, Ministers themselves have not met with the Welsh Government in relation to this Bill, as again would be expected, as it is not a government Bill. I know that the sponsors have met with the Welsh Government to discuss the policy intent and to negotiate which clauses require a legislative consent Motion.

The sponsors are also leading engagement with Scotland and Northern Ireland while—on the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Harper, and others—UK government officials are providing technical support to support the sponsor and are engaging with Welsh government officials to discuss technical matters in relation to clauses that require a legislative consent Motion or those to which Wales has requested that further changes are made. Officials have regular meetings; they can be as frequent as weekly, as was the case at some points over the last few months.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

The noble Baroness mentioned that the role of Ministers is to ensure that the Bill is legally robust, effective and workable, but surely safety has to play some part in that as well.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure it would be expected that safety is absolutely paramount. The point I am making—and I look forward to hearing from my noble and learned friend—is that our position in government here is not to deal with matters of policy. As I have said, we are restricted to areas to which any Government would be restricted.

We will absolutely work with the Welsh Government, NHS England and the NHS in Wales to understand the impact of any changes to the law and the provision of healthcare services in Wales, during the coming stages of the Bill.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I make a declaration of interest: I have an assistant who is funded by Mr Bernard Lewis and who helps me on this Bill. I make a declaration that Dignity in Dying paid for the printing of the material that was circulated to Peers in my name before this process commenced.

I compliment the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, on the short way that she introduced the important issue. I very much hope that I can put to rest most of the misconceptions that were expressed during this debate.

As everybody agrees, criminal law is not devolved to the Welsh Senedd. Therefore, any change in criminal law has to come from the UK Parliament. You cannot proceed with assisted dying without changing the criminal law. Therefore, the UK Parliament has to provide a legislative change for that.

Healthcare is rightly devolved to the Welsh Ministers and the Senedd. The Bill makes provision in England for Ministers to produce regulations on how assisted dying will be implemented and regulated in England. Clause 42 requires Ministers to produce such regulations. It is wrong, as part of the devolution settlement, to require Welsh Ministers who are responsible for health in Wales to do that. It is for the Welsh Government to decide what provision to make. Unlike Clause 41, which relates to England, Welsh Ministers are given the option to introduce such regulations as they see fit. Those regulations will permit the assisted dying process to be introduced in Wales, in the National Health Service, and for Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Government to provide whatever provision for it in regulations that they see fit.

The noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, asked why we are legislating for England and Wales but not Scotland at the same time. It is because we are doing exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Gove, asked me to do—and I am so glad he did—which is to respect the devolution settlement. Will the noble Lord let me finish? Then I will come back to him.

The way this structure works is that, first, we in this Parliament determine whether the criminal law should be changed. Secondly, the Welsh Government are given the power to introduce regulations. That power should normally be given to Welsh Ministers by an Act of the Senedd. Therefore, a legislative consent Motion has been proffered by the Welsh Government for the Senedd to decide whether it would be willing to give us consent to legislate in an area that would normally be legislated for in the Senedd.

The LCM—legislative consent Motion—in the Welsh Senedd covers the following. I give these details for noble Lords to consider them at their leisure: Clause 40, which gives Welsh Ministers power to issue guidance; Clause 42, which gives Welsh Ministers power to regulate how this is to be introduced in the health service in Wales and with what regulations; Clause 51, which gives the Welsh Government power to talk about and make regulations about the Welsh language; Clause 54, which gives them a general power to make regulations; and Clause 58, which gives the Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Government power to introduce certain of the provisions.

The sponsor in the other place and I have discussed this arrangement with the Welsh Government, and by that I mean Welsh Ministers and Welsh officials. We have done what the Welsh Government would wish us to do to respect devolution. We have taken these powers in the Bill, subject to Parliament, so that there is not a position where, after this Bill is passed, Welsh Ministers lack the power to introduce regulations if they choose to do so.

I have listened to this torrent of points about Wales saying it has not been thought out. I say with suitable humility that we have thought it out and sought to reflect what good devolution practice would require. I do not invite people to come back, but please think about what I have said and consider—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I would be grateful if any advice that has been given to the noble and learned Lord by officials is shared with the Committee. It is helpful, when determining legislation, to understand that, and it would be especially helpful if the Government, who have said they are getting involved only on legality and practicality, were to express their view. They will not even tell the Welsh Government what their view is, and that is very concerning.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I just emphasise my previous comments. I think it would be extremely helpful for this debate if I were to write to the noble Baroness setting it all out as she requires, following my previous Answers to Written Questions that have been laid.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I hope that the department will take a better attitude in determining things such as freedom of information requests. We have already had from the Cabinet Office whether it is now in the public interest to declare information that it holds. I hope the Government—I can see that the Deputy Chief Whip is on the Front Bench—will take this away, because it is a serious matter. This is one of the most important Bills that we will consider in this Parliament, and it is important that we have transparency and a full understanding that is shared across the Chamber. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

As a final point, I agree with the noble Lord. As Government Chief Whip, I take my job very seriously. I love the House, and I want to do this properly. I assure the Committee that I hear noble Lords’ sentiments. I know how long it has taken on the Bill. I know that views are sincerely held on both sides. I will work in the usual channels to deal with these matters.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the insightful contributions that have been made to this debate. I will be very concise on the point. In summary, it is our view that workability concerns are less significant, although the Government are unable to confirm at this stage that the current drafting is fully workable, effective or enforceable. As noble Lords will understand, the amendment has not had technical drafting support from officials.

On this point, if the amendment is passed in isolation, it is likely to have minimal legal effect, as Clause 1 is essentially declaratory rather than operative. The remainder of the Bill would refer to the capacity to make a decision, which, as noble Lords will be aware from the Bill, is to be read in accordance with the Mental Capacity Act 2005.

I anticipate coming later to discussions on amendments to Clause 3, as noble Lords have referred to, as those amendments would change the operation of the Bill. I will comment on proposals when we come to the relevant debate. These issues are, of course, rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider, deciding which test is to be used.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will deal first with the central issue in this debate, which is the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The wording currently mentions:

“A terminally ill person in England or Wales who … has the capacity to make a decision”.


The noble Baroness proposes that “capacity” should be changed to “ability”. From what the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, says, I understand that we should read that with Amendment 115, although there is another amendment that the noble Baroness proposes in relation to Clause 3. But I accept what the noble Lord says in relation to Amendment 2.

With the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, she is suggesting that we remove “capacity” and replace it with “ability”. The noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, put his finger on it when he said that “capacity” is well known to the law. You could not possibly have a Bill that did not refer to capacity because what it means, in the eyes of the law and of people in practice, is the ability to make the decision. As the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, if you do not have capacity, you cannot make the decision. That applies right across the doings of human beings, and the law recognises that. If, therefore, you replace “capacity”—

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

Nevertheless, given the Bill’s subject matter, there are two watchwords that we should carry in our minds, particularly in the light of the speech of my noble friend Lord Shinkwin. They are “reassurance” and “clarity”. Amendment 3 and others in this group would serve to deliver reassurance through greater clarity. That is why I suggested that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, should consider these amendments with a sympathetic eye, because they serve to put the Bill’s intentions around coercion beyond any reasonable doubt and they do so without in any way undermining the Bill’s underlying aims.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken today for their contributions on these important issues. As I have already made clear, I will keep my comments limited to the amendments on which the Government have major legal, technical and/or operational workability concerns.

On that basis, I will speak about Amendments 118 and 118B. Amendment 118, tabled by my noble friend Lord Hunt, could prevent a person from accessing assistance where there is no clear connection between their individual circumstances and the crime that their close relative is under investigation for or has been convicted of, even if the said crime took place some years in the past. Amendment 118B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, would expand the meaning of “close relatives” to include “friends”. It is not clear who would determine the meaning of “friends” in this context. I should also say that disclosure of personal data engages Article 8 of the ECHR and is regulated by the principles set down in the Data Protection Act. Detailed financial assessment of those connected to a person seeking assistance is likely to interfere with the privacy of those individuals, particularly where there are no signs of coercion. The necessity of doing so is difficult to assess in the round rather than considering this on a case-by-case basis.

I turn to Amendments 222 and 612, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. Amendment 222 proposes a new clause to oblige the Secretary of State to provide specialist psychological assessment and support for persons considering an assisted death and their families. It would also oblige the Secretary of State to establish bereavement support services offering psychological support before an assisted death to all persons concerned. The Bill does not require families to know about an assisted death in advance, so requiring the offer of psychological services to them could create an undeliverable obligation on the Secretary of State.

Amendment 612 would mandate the video recording of a person being assisted to end their own life. The amendment would also require the person to confirm in the video recording their identity, their wish to die of their own free will, their capacity and that they are acting without persuasion or coercion. The amendment would require that this recording is sent to the coroner within 72 hours of death and it would create a regulation-making power for the Secretary of State concerning the practical arrangements for the recording, storing and transmission of the recordings. Requiring that a person’s death be video recorded where they did not wish the event to be recorded could risk being a significant intrusion into their family and private life under Article 8 of the ECHR. Since the Bill includes several safeguards, this intrusion is unlikely to be considered justified, and this amendment could also raise GDPR issues and concerns.

Amendment 460, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, specifies a range of actions the panel must take into account when considering a person’s psychosocial and safeguarding circumstances. It includes a requirement to offer immediate access to safe housing and financial support where abuse is disclosed. As the Bill is drafted, neither the panel nor the commissioner is provided with such a function and it is not clear how this would interact with local authority responsibility for housing provision.

As for the other amendments in this group where I make no detailed comments, although they may be deliverable, some would be challenging to implement. For example, Amendment 47 would require assessing doctors and the panel to assess a person’s state of mind or private thoughts. Amendment 58 would require an assessment of indirect structural disadvantage, including poverty or lack of care. Although I raise specific workability issues with only a small number of amendments in this group, noble Lords will be aware that the other amendments in this group have not had technical drafting support from officials. The issues raised by these other amendments are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide on, but I note that the way in which they are currently drafted means that they may not be fully workable, effective or enforceable.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, in this debate we heard deeply personal information from the noble Lords, Lord Empey, Lord McCrea, Lord Watts, Lord Polak, Lord Griffiths, Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Shinkwin, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollins, Lady Hayter and Lady Grey-Thompson. I express my profound respect for people being willing to share in that way. I make it clear that in nothing that I say do I in any way intend to disrespect any of what must have been quite difficult statements to make. I really treasure many of the things that have been said, whether for or against the Bill.

As all noble Lords engaged in the debate know, at the heart of the Bill—there is no dispute about this—the decision to have an assisted death has to be where the patient, to quote the Bill,

“has a clear, settled and informed wish to end their own life, and … has made the decision that they wish to end their own life voluntarily and has not been coerced or pressured by any other person into making it”.

There is no dispute in the Committee that there have to be appropriate and sufficient safeguards to ensure that there is no coercion.

The current safeguards in the Bill are as follows: first, a doctor has to be satisfied that the person is not being coerced. Secondly, a second doctor has to be satisfied that the person is not being coerced. Thirdly, a panel has to assess that the person is not being coerced. Fourthly, the first doctor—after a period of reflection, in signing a second declaration by the patient—has to be satisfied again that the person is not being coerced. Finally, the doctor providing the assistance has to be at the last moment satisfied that the person is not being coerced.

The two doctors who give the certificate at the beginning must both have had specialist training in domestic abuse, including training on identifying coercive control and domestic abuse, and including identifying the effect of financial control. The panel considering the matter must consist of a psychiatrist, a social worker and a senior lawyer. If either of the two doctors have any doubt about the position in relation to capacity, they have to consult a psychiatrist. Anybody who by dishonesty, coercion or pressure induces the patient to either execute a declaration that they want an assisted death or take the assistance is guilty of a criminal offence. If all that the person does by dishonesty, coercion or pressure is to induce the person to execute a relevant document, the maximum sentence is 14 years. If, on the other hand, if they induce the person to take their own life, then the maximum sentence is life.

The question before the House in this debate is whether those protections are adequate to ensure that there is not coercion. I have before me a number of amendments. Amendment 3 is proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay: she would like “independent” to come before “decision”. I wholeheartedly agree with her that the decision must be independent, in the sense that it is a free decision made by the person, unpressured or coerced in the way that I have described. I am always influenced by what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, says in relation to that; he said, “Reassure us”. There is no dispute between me and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that it has to be an independent decision. Is it clear enough in the Bill? With the deepest respect to both the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I point out that it specifically says that the person should have

“made the decision that they wish to end their own life voluntarily and … not been coerced or pressured by any other person into making it”.

With respect, I say that it is clear enough on the face of the Bill.

I turn to Amendment 45, that of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, which would insert “encouraged” in addition to “coerced” and “pressured”. I have thought very carefully about this, and I am against putting it in. The reason is that I see the reality: somebody who is thinking about an assisted death will want to talk frequently to those who love them. They may want to talk to the multidisciplinary team which is looking after them. Let us suppose somebody says, “I really, really want to go now. Should I take that opportunity?” If somebody says, “I encourage you to make the decision that is best for you,”, what the noble Baroness is proposing is that that becomes a criminal offence, potentially imprisonable for 14 years or for life. To me, that does not seem sensible.

I turn to Amendment 46. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asks for “influenced” or “encouraged” to be added. I have dealt with “encouraged”. With regard to “influenced”, the multidisciplinary team or the person’s loved ones may well—with the best motives—influence somebody to go ahead with it. I do not criticise them for that if that is what the person wants and if it helps. It seems to me, again, wholly inappropriate to go beyond “coerced or pressured”.

On Amendment 47, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, suggests that it should be “external or internally” pressured that one is concerned with. We can understand external pressure—that is, somebody pressurising someone else to do it, and pressure carries with it an inappropriate degree of influence—but how does one in practice deal with an analysis of what would make me, for example, want my life to end? My noble friend Lady Merron also referred to that. The pain, the lack of dignity, the sense that I am not the person that I was in front of my own children is internal pressure. It might include me thinking, “I do not want to go on with this; in part, I’ve only got two or three weeks to live, and I want it to end”. The internal pressure is making me come to that conclusion. It is impossible to ask people, in particular the law enforcement authorities, to investigate what is going on in my mind. I have thought very carefully about that. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, that I have given each of these amendments very careful thought, because they are important, but, again, I do not think that is a practical solution.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I hesitate to rise as I want to ensure that everyone feels that their voice has been heard in this debate. We do not want to make law on a basis on which people look back and say that we did not properly debate a particular issue. If all noble Lords who wish to speak in this debate have spoken, I am very happy to make my contribution, but if there are any other noble Lords who wish to make their point, I should give way.

Well, that answers that question; I tried my best. I want to make that point clear. It is really important that everyone who feels they want to speak can do so, but I also say to noble Lords, including my noble friends, that it is also important to respect the rules and conventions, to speak to the amendments and not to repeat Second Reading speeches or make wider debates. I hope we can get that appropriate balance. I have taken time making those points, so I will try to be brief.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, especially for the way in which she delivered the Select Committee process that preceded our deliberations in Committee. The evidence submitted to that committee will be invaluable to noble Lords as we continue our work to scrutinise the Bill.

Without making a long speech, I will reflect on the specific amendments on changing the minimum age. I was talking to a noble and learned friend about this, and he said that, frankly, the law around age is a mess—and that has come out in some discussions. Sometimes we are speaking from our own experience. My two children are in their 20s, and I wonder whether they would really have the capacity to make this decision. But at other times, I sit in awe of them and the decisions they make. They express maturity way beyond 20 years, and, in fact, more maturity than much older people.

It very much depends on the individual in these cases. We have to look at whether there is a way to achieve that right balance; otherwise, we will just be making another age limit. You can join the Army at 16 but you cannot serve in combat until you are 18. The Government are talking about reducing the voting age to 16, but then we are hearing debates on neurological competence and capacity. It is important that we understand and express these points.

The point that came out for me in this whole debate about neurological development is that there is no such thing as “the science”. Science is contestable. We heard this from noble Lords who are experts in their field. We must be very careful about saying that “the science says this”. It also has implications for other decisions.

I turn to a couple of points which may already be treated in the Bill. I want to check the understanding of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, on what is in the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked: what happens if a new treatment is available? Clause 2 says

“which cannot be reversed by treatment”,

which probably takes care of that point, but I would like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to share his interpretation and say whether it addresses her concerns. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said that we should think about these young people who will be suffering and in pain, yet nowhere in Clause 2 are the words “pain” or “suffering”. We must be very careful to read what is in the Bill when we are making these points.

I welcome the intervention by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that while he is quite clear about 18, he is sympathetic to the idea of cognitive development and maturity between 18 and 25, and there might be some discussion. Who knows—I cannot speak for the noble and learned Lord, who has looked into this issue very deeply—but perhaps in those discussions he may be persuaded. He is saying 18 at the moment, but clearly he is open to enhanced measures for those aged between 18 and 25. That is something that I hope the whole Committee will welcome.

There are many other points that I could make, but it is important to hear from the Government and what the noble and learned Lord believes in response to the points that have been raised.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate on the age of eligibility for those who are provided with assistance under the Bill. I have made it clear previously, and reiterate, that I will keep my comments limited to the issues on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

The amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Berger, Lady Lawlor and Lady Hollins, seek to raise the age at which an individual would be eligible for the provision of assistance under the Bill. The points that I wish to raise here relate to the European Convention on Human Rights. There are potential risks that I am raising to inform the decision-making of noble Lords, but the underlying policies are rightly a matter for Parliament. Under the convention, the amendments in this group could give rise to legal challenge; for example, that excluding people who are under 21 or 25 from accessing assisting dying may not be justified under Articles 2 or 8 of the EHCR, or that this amounts to unjustified discrimination under Article 14.

Noble Lords will be aware that differential treatments, such as raising the age of eligibility, may be lawful if it is possible to persuade the courts to agree that the age limit is justified, necessary and proportionate. There would need to be a reasonable justification for restricting access to assisted dying to people aged either 21 and over or 25 and over. Noble Lords will want to consider this in relation to these amendments.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Can the Minister be clear? If we decided to limit—whether by age or in some other way that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, might decide—and put that into primary legislation, is that then not the law of the country? All that the European court could then do is say that it is not compatible but remains the law—or is the Minister saying something different? If we pass primary legislation, that is the law of the land, is it not?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The point that I was making just before I sat down was that noble Lords will want to consider the points that I have raised in relation to these amendments. I am sure that they will take into account what the noble Lord has just said too.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everybody who has contributed to the debate. I have made my position moderately clear in relation to what we should do—and I sense that the Committee is happy that we should take that course.

I completely understand the points about people aged 18 being impulsive and often emotionally immature. On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, that is why the Sentencing Council refers to it. However, it is a different question here as to what the age limit should be. If people are emotionally immature, they will not have a settled view about what to do in these circumstances, but some people will. The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked: what happens if there are new developments in medicine that would extend life? The answer is that you would not have six months or less to live, which I think was the answer that he was giving in relation to it.

I have made my position clear. I invite the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, in the light of where we have got to, to withdraw her amendment so that we can move on to the next issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I can be extremely brief, because of the confirmation given by the noble and learned Lord and also knowing that the substantive issues of domestic abuse, interpreters and various other matters will be dealt with in their appropriate place.

At the risk of underlining my reputation as a legal geek, I invite the noble and learned Lord’s attention to his Amendment 350, and in particular the Member’s Explanatory Statement. I understand the amendment, but I do not understand the statement. The amendment leaves out from “to” to end of the line and inserts “section 12(4) and (7)”, which are about “sharing of specialists’ opinions”. The Explanatory Statement says:

“This is a drafting change (consequential on subsection (4) being added to clause 12)”.


Now, Clause 12 already has a subsection (4), and the noble and learned Lord’s amendments to Clause 12 are to subsections (5) and (8). I do not know whether the Explanatory Statement has confused me and in fact the change is not consequential on a new subsection (4) being added but just stands in and of itself. It may be that I am confused unnecessarily, but if the noble and learned Lord could just clear up that minor point, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, shall be brief. All but three of the amendments in this group have been tabled by the Bill’s sponsor and, as has been discussed, they make a series of drafting changes to the Bill, including making sure that terms are consistent throughout and removing ambiguity and duplication.

The Government are neutral on all the policy choices reflected in these amendments, as they are on the Bill as a whole, but have as usual provided drafting support to make the Bill legally workable. As a part of the discussion today, it is of course for the sponsor and for Parliament to determine whether any of the amendments that the sponsor has chosen to table have changed the intent of amendments that were debated in the other place.

Amendment 7 in this group, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, seeks to amend Amendment 6 by changing a reference in Clause 1(2)(b) from “a preliminary discussion” to “their first preliminary discussion”. It does not make any wider changes to the Bill to provide for more than one preliminary discussion to take place, so this may lead to uncertainty. As with all amendments that have not had technical input from the Government, noble Lords may wish to note that the current drafting of this amendment may require further consideration to make it fully workable, effective and enforceable.

Amendments 8 and 9, on which I raise no major workability issues, appear to be trying to achieve the same purpose as Amendment 6, tabled by the Bill’s sponsor. But I would note that Amendments 8 and 9 have not had the technical drafting support from officials and therefore may not be fully workable, effective and enforceable.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for all the interventions. These changes are only drafting changes. Some legitimate points were made, particularly by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Lawlor, but they did not really go to the drafting points.

I go to the concerns various Members have expressed. Amendments 6 and 7, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, would prevent doctors having a conversation with people—I am not saying this in a bad or a good way, but that is what she wants to do—particularly before they reach 18. There is a point there, but it is nothing to do with the change I have introduced in my Amendment 6. My amendment would simply make it clear that there has to be a preliminary discussion before you can go ahead to assisted death. I have done that to make it clear that it is one of the eligibility conditions; it says nothing about what should be talked about or whether such a conversation should take place under the age of 18.

In fact, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, said, Clause 6 states:

“No registered medical practitioner or other health professional shall raise the subject of the provision of assistance in accordance with this Act with a person under the age of 18”.


I do not think that the noble Baroness’s amendment would add to that protection. The key point is that all Amendment 6 is doing is saying that you have to have a Clause 5 discussion.

The next point, raised by a number of Peers, is that I am watering down the protection in relation to domestic abuse. That, as a matter of drafting, is wrong. It is only a matter of convenience that, having defined domestic abuse as including everything so defined in the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, you get coercion, control and economic abuse as forms of domestic abuse. To avoid having to repeat that every time the Bill refers to training, I have simply referred to domestic abuse, and that is then defined at the top of page 41. I very much hope that people will accept that that is the position.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, who is shaking her head, raises a different point about the position in relation to abuse that is not domestic. Perhaps your lawyer is exercising undue influence on you. That is a point that I will respond to in writing, but it is not a point raised by my drafting change, because all the restrictions have been in relation to domestic abuse, not to what the lawyers would call undue influence. But it is a perfectly legitimate point, which I will come back to in correspondence with her.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right; on that point they do change the policy intention. I am grateful. I would welcome the thoughts of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, on that.

Finally, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Howe, I have been asked on his behalf to formally speak on his Amendments 301A and 305A. In speaking to those amendments, I want to highlight the threshold which is set for determining whether an individual is in England and Wales at the time of the first assessment. I hope the noble and learned Lord will be able to pick up this point.

As the Bill is drafted, the question as to whether somebody is ordinarily resident in England and Wales rests on what is called the

“opinion of the coordinating doctor”.

My concern is that an opinion without any further evidential requirement may be too low a bar, particularly given the need to guard against the risk of what has been called death tourism. In other parts of the Bill, the noble and learned Lord has used the word “satisfied”, and I think we would agree that that entails a higher evidential bar than merely “opinion”—indeed, that is also higher than “believes” or “reasonably believes”. “Satisfied” is a higher standard. When the noble and learned Lord replies, can he use that opportunity to explain why the test here is only “opinion” and not “satisfied”, as that test is used in other parts of the Bill?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate on the issue of residency and eligibility criteria. As I have already made clear and will now repeat, I will confine my comments to amendments on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

First, I turn to the amendments which narrow the residence criteria in respect of eligibility for assistance under the Bill. Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, would change the residence criteria for assistance under the Bill from requiring a person to be “ordinarily resident” to “permanently resident”. Unlike “ordinarily resident”, “permanently resident” does not have a set definition in the context of UK immigration law. It is possible that it would be taken as referring only to those who have citizenship or indefinite leave to remain, which is a much narrower scope than the current wording of “ordinarily resident”.

Similarly, Amendments 23, 309, 300A and 306A would restrict access to assisted dying support to British citizens or people with indefinite leave to remain. This may result in migrants on long-term work or study visas who have resided in England and Wales for longer than 12 months being denied access to an assisted death, thereby potentially giving rise to indirect discrimination based on race. These amendments may be subject to challenge under Article 14 of the ECHR when read with Article 8, on the basis that this may amount to unjustified discrimination. This differential treatment would require an objective and reasonable justification.

In addition, under various international agreements, the UK has an obligation not to discriminate against EU, EEA and Swiss nationals on the basis of nationality, although the agreements do not prevent restrictions on the basis of residency. Since these amendments would prevent individuals from those countries from accessing these services on an equal basis to UK citizens in the same circumstances, they are likely to be contrary to the UK’s international obligations under those agreements.

Amendments 11A, 258A, 306B and 449A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, seek to change the residency requirement from “ordinarily resident” to “domiciled”. These amendments would add complexity and potential uncertainty to the eligibility requirements. “Domiciled” refers to the determination of a person’s permanent home largely for tax purposes, meaning that a person can be domiciled in a place without being resident there. It is not a familiar concept in domestic law outside of taxation, so it is unclear how it would apply in this context. Further elaboration in guidance would be needed to make these amendments workable. It is also unclear what practical impact this change would have when the Bill would still require people to be physically present in England and Wales in respect of the steps under Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19.

I will next turn to Amendment 14, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Before the Minister moves on, Kim Leadbeater specifically introduced this concept of England and Wales, and, in Committee, Stephen Kinnock did not raise any issues with it at all in terms of operability or similar. I am astonished to hear some of the other elements that are now coming out for the first time in the consideration of this Bill.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sorry to hear of the noble Baroness’s surprise. I am simply setting out where the Government have particular concerns within the scope to which I referred. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer may be able to comment more appropriately, if he wishes to do so, on the points that she raises.

Amendment 14, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, would widen the eligibility criteria to include UK citizens of pensionable age who are living abroad. There are two main issues with this amendment. The first is that the UK has obligations under international agreements that enable residents of partner countries to receive certain benefits, including some health service provision, in the UK. These agreements are, as I mentioned, with the EU, EEA states and Switzerland. As I set out, these agreements prevent restrictions based on nationality, although they permit those based on residency. Therefore, the amendment would have the effect of opening access to provision of assistance under the Bill to EU, Swiss and EEA residents of pensionable age, provided that they satisfy other eligibility criteria. Widening access only to UK nationals of pensionable age would be contrary to the UK’s obligations under those agreements.

Secondly, by including those who have “moved to live abroad”, the amendment would enable pensionable-age citizens from Northern Ireland or Scotland who have moved abroad to access the provision of assistance, in accordance with the Bill, if they satisfy the other eligibility criteria.

For all the other amendments in this group, on which I make no comment, any workability concerns are less significant. For example, Amendment 10 would remove two eligibility criteria from Clause 1, while Amendment 13 would change the requirements relating to ordinary residence in England and Wales. As Clause 1 is largely descriptive, these amendments would have limited legal effect without corresponding amendments being made to operative provisions later in the Bill.

While these are choices for noble Lords, these amendments may introduce inconsistencies and ambiguity into the Bill. As noble Lords will be aware, these amendments have not had technical drafting support from officials, so the way in which they are currently drafted means that they may not be fully workable, effective or enforceable—but, of course, the issues raised are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide on.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

Given that Jersey and the Isle of Man, if I am correct, are not EEA countries, how is the contract for health service delivery affected by this Bill in the light of the problems that I highlighted right at the beginning of what has turned into quite a lengthy debate? I was trying to look at a carve-out for those countries so that those contracts could continue, but I was told that it was deemed out of scope of the Bill.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure the noble Baroness will understand that I am restricted in the comments that I can appropriately make here. I heard my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer say that all these matters needed consideration, and I am sure that he will expand further on that very point.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will come to that question when I go through the points.

The purpose of Clause 1(1)(c)—namely, that to qualify you have to be ordinarily resident in England and Wales and have been so resident for at least 12 months—is, as noble Lords have said, to avoid people coming here specifically for the purpose of having an assisted death. It therefore would not be adequate to say that people should be ordinarily resident at the moment they apply, because they would have come specifically for that period. Hence you need a period, and 12 months is taken as a reasonable period in relation to that.

The phrase “ordinarily resident” appears right throughout the statute book in a whole range of settings and reflects the policy choice made by regulations or statutes. It says, “We want to give this right to people who permanently live in this country”, using the word “permanently” not in a legal sense but in an ordinary sense. In applying that phrase, the courts have not generally had any real difficulty as to what it means. It is a reflection of this Parliament saying that we want to give particular rights to the people who live here, and sometimes we say, as we are suggesting here, that we do not care what their citizenship status is—if they live here permanently, they get that right. For example, in relation to the National Health Service we say that if people live here permanently, they get that right.

With the greatest respect to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the cases have made it pretty clear that you can be ordinarily resident here but have temporary absences abroad—for example, if you go to work as a diplomat abroad, serve in the Armed Forces or take a job that takes you away for two months. The big case is somebody whose family lived here and who went to be educated in India for a period of time, who is still held to be ordinarily resident here. With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, I do not think that adopting the phrase “ordinarily resident” gives rise either to injustice or to legal difficulties.

I will deal with the points made by individual Peers. I am very sympathetic to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, as I made clear in my intervention. I do not think she was putting in the word “permanently” other than to probe the question of those who live on the Isle of Man or Jersey and get all their medical treatment habitually in England. When the doctor in England says, “I will help you go home to the Isle of Man to get an assisted death”, assuming that it becomes legal in the Isle of Man, the doctor there will be committing a criminal offence under the Bill unless there is an amendment.

The BMA has proposed an amendment that, if you help somebody go home for an assisted death—home being, say, the Isle of Man or Jersey—and it is legal there, that should not be a criminal offence. I talked to the BMA about that. We need to work together to see whether we can get an amendment that satisfies the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has made. I would welcome her input in relation to this.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

As I set out last week and will repeat if noble Lords will forgive me, I completely agree with what the Government Chief Whip said about noble Lords ensuring that they speak to the amendments and do not give Second Reading speeches, but, at the same time, I think it is important that all noble Lords who want to speak to an amendment are given the opportunity to do so.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for her amendment in this group. It seeks to ensure that someone who currently is or has recently been deprived of their liberty will not be eligible under the Act. This amendment refers to the Mental Capacity Act 2005, which is also the Act underpinning capacity for the purposes of this Bill. I appreciate the underlying logic behind the amendment, which has opened up a valuable discussion of who exactly should have access to assisted dying services. I am sure that all noble Lords would agree, whatever their position, that there should be robust provisions and safeguards in the Bill and that it should be available only to those who are suffering from terminal illnesses who are of sound mind, so that we do not inadvertently open it up to those with issues related to their capacity.

I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, for her contribution in place of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley. It is very important that, given the backlog in the system, not just those who have DoLS but those who have made an application for DoLS are deemed not to have capacity when seeking to end their lives. It would be very interesting to hear the Government’s perspective on this and that of the noble and learned Lord.

These questions all fundamentally ask whether the Bill is right to use the Mental Capacity Act 2005 as the basis for defining capacity. I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for offering to meet those who have tabled these amendments. That is very constructive and helpful and should be acknowledged. I also look forward to hearing the noble and learned Lord’s responses to some of the issues that have been raised.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions on this group. To echo the comments of my noble friend the Chief Whip, the Government remain neutral on the principle of assisted dying and on the passage of this Bill. Whether the law in this area should change is a matter for Parliament. As before, any comments that I make will focus on amendments where the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

This group relates to deprivation of liberty and eligibility for seeking an assisted death. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friend Baroness Keeley for tabling the amendments in this group. Amendments 16 and 114, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, seek to prevent individuals who have been deprived of their liberty within the last 12 months under the Mental Capacity Act being eligible for an assisted death. In the case of Amendments 16A and 114A, tabled by my noble friend Lady Keeley, someone would be ineligible as a result of an application for deprivation of liberty having been made, irrespective of the outcome of that application.

Noble Lords may wish to consider that the amendments would introduce a departure from the Mental Capacity Act framework by linking a lack of capacity in one area—capacity to consent to care and treatment arrangements that amount to confinement—to lack of capacity in another area, that being capacity to make the decision to end one’s life. Amendments 16A and 114A go further and would make a person ineligible on the basis that only an application for deprivation of liberty had been made. This may result in a situation where the application was unwarranted, but that person would still be ineligible for assisted death.

Regarding the European Convention on Human Rights—

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I want to ask what the Government’s view is. This actually changes the whole basis of the Mental Capacity Act. The Mental Capacity Act concerns existing capacity. These amendments move into retrospective or future capacity, which is completely incompatible with the Mental Capacity Act. Do the Government have any views about that significant change of capacity and the test of the capacity of an individual?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I hope that the comments I have made already indicate where we are concerned, rather than going into further areas, but I would be very happy to look at the noble Lord’s point.

I also wish to raise points relating to the European Convention on Human Rights. As before, these are potential risks that I am raising to inform noble Lords’ decision-making, but I wish to be clear that the underlying policies are rightly a matter for Parliament. Noble Lords may wish to note the requirement for an objective, proportionate and reasonable justification to treat those who have previously lacked capacity in a different context differently from others who have not. Noble Lords may also wish to consider whether there is justification for different treatment where an application for deprivation of liberty has been made, but not necessarily completed or approved. In the absence of justifications that are sufficient to persuade a court, the amendments may conflict with ECHR obligations, specifically Article 14 on the prohibition of discrimination, when read with Article 8.

I confirm to noble Lords that, if a court finds that primary legislation is incompatible, it may make a declaration of incompatibility. This does not invalidate legislation. As is usual, the Government would then consider—

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for making that point, which I think was the question I asked last time. This is very relevant to the question that I posed to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. It is very important that we put protections in the legislation, so that they are not subsequently unpicked, whether by domestic courts or the European Court of Human Rights. If they are only in a code of practice or guidance, it would not provide protection against those legal challenges. Will the Minister just confirm that what I have said is correct?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure that my noble and learned friend will comment on the noble Lord’s points, but the point I wished to make, which might be helpful, is that it is usual practice for the Government to consider and address these matters. Noble Lords are aware that there is a range of ways of dealing with that: by amending primary legislation, through a remedial order or by a declaration of incompatibility. That is the usual practice.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

On human rights law, does the Minister agree that, if Parliament forms a considered judgment that there is a basis for a differentiation in this context or any other, it is most unlikely that a court is going to intervene on the sensitive subjects of social policy that we are concerned with here?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I hear the noble Lord, but my role today, as I am sure he understands, is to advise your Lordships on the risks as we see them and for noble Lords to decide how they wish to interpret them with regard to these amendments. But I am grateful for the point that the noble Lord makes.

Noble Lords may wish to note that these amendments would lead to different treatments for those detained under the Mental Health Act from those detained under the Mental Capacity Act. Only those detained under the Mental Capacity Act would be excluded from assisted dying. Noble Lords may wish to consider whether this is justifiable, given that the criteria for detention under both Acts are similar. The decision on which Act to use is largely a matter of professional discretion. Operationally, these amendments could also create confusion for practitioners, because they depart from the principle that capacity assessments are decision- and time-specific, so additional guidance and training would be needed.

Finally, as noble Lords will be aware, these amendments have not had technical drafting support from officials, which means that they may not be fully workable, effective or enforceable in the way that they are currently drafted. However, the issues raised are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I have heard this outline of the Government’s position. Am I correct in understanding that the Government have no position on ensuring that the Bill is safe for vulnerable groups of people?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would not make that assumption.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The question that a number of noble Lords are concerned about, when discussing this amendment, is that the Mental Capacity Act was passed in 2005. Of course, the guidance has been updated, but it might be helpful to those in the Committee who are concerned that this Act is 20 years out of date to talk about any guidance that has been updated, so that it is not seen as out of date—if that makes sense. This is just to clarify that we are not dealing with an Act that was set in stone in 2005, as things have changed since then.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and feel that this would probably be a very appropriate point to move on to my noble and learned friend.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will just pick up what the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, is saying. I think he is saying that the Act has been updated over the years and that people have taken account of improvements. He is absolutely right; from my own knowledge of the working of the Act, he makes an absolutely valid point.

I repeat what I said earlier—that we need to discuss this. I will deal with the interventions after I have given my response.

First, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, is right in identifying the risks that arise. That is why I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is right that we need to build in some form of enhanced protection.

As far as the intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, is concerned, this amendment is limited to DoLS under the Mental Capacity Act; it does not include any exercise of the inherent jurisdiction of the courts on somebody whose liberty has been taken away. The noble Baroness is very welcome to come and discuss that with us, and I will give her notice of any meeting that we have.

As far as the noble Lord, Lord Harper, is concerned, how one provides effective protection depends first on the discussions that take place. I would envisage tabling an amendment on this or maybe agreeing that somebody else tables one. I cannot tell noble Lords the extent to which it will involve the Minister having powers, but it is something that we will discuss.

The points that the Minister, my noble friend Lady Merron, made about discrimination relate to people who have had a deprivation of liberty order in the past, or even those who have one now, who will be excluded altogether from the right to assisted dying. The nature of the Mental Capacity Act is that this should be done on a case-by-case basis. I am proposing that we discuss how to provide enhanced protection rather than excluding.

In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Baroness, Baroness Berger, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, feel able to withdraw their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, this group of amendments covers two distinct but connected questions. The first question, posed by Amendment 17, is, in my judgment, a very helpful one, because the answer will clarify the role—or lack of role—played by a person’s GP in the process being pursued by that person in seeking an assisted death. It seems to me, from reading the Bill’s provisions, that the involvement of a person’s GP in that process, although very likely, is not legally necessary provided that the patient fulfils all the conditions set out in Clause 1(1). Clarification from the noble and learned Lord would be very helpful.

The second question, posed by my noble friend Lady Fraser’s Amendment 62, is also one that I hope can be answered very simply by the noble and learned Lord. Am I correct that it is implicit in Clause 5 that the preliminary discussion between the patient and the registered medical practitioner need not involve a doctor physically situated in England and Wales and need not be face to face? Equally, am I correct that it is unnecessary to state in Clause 1(3)(b) that the steps set out in Clauses 8 and 19 must be taken

“by persons in England or Wales”,

because Clauses 8 and 19 already explicitly provide for this?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. As I have said, I will keep my comments limited to the amendments on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

On Amendments 17 and 309A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, and introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, Amendment 17 is a probing amendment that seeks to establish whether people who are registered with a GP in Scotland but live in England would be excluded from eligibility for an assisted death under the Bill. Noble Lords may wish to note that Amendment 17 would have limited effect as it amends only Clause 1, which is largely descriptive. Without further amendments to Clauses 10 and 17, which contain duties to assess eligibility criteria, Amendment 17 would not impact those criteria and would introduce conflicting provisions.

Amendment 309A would amend the corresponding eligibility criteria in Clause 10 to include a person registered as a patient with a general medical practice in England, Wales or Scotland. It would not amend Clause 17, which contains the assessment by the panel. Therefore, Amendments 17 and 309A would require further consequential amendments to ensure that the Bill is coherent. This would include amendments to ensure that data recording obligations and the associated criminal offences apply to Scottish GPs. These consequential amendments would likely require consultation with the Scottish Government, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, referred to, in line with the guidance for Private Members’ Bills.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, for tabling Amendment 62. The purpose of this amendment is to establish why the Bill requires only the actions set out in Clauses 10 and 11 to be undertaken by people in England or Wales, and not the preliminary discussion under Clause 5. Our understanding is that the reference to the preliminary discussion in Clause 5 is not mentioned in Clause 1(3) because Clause 5(3) already requires that a person wanting to have a preliminary discussion must be in England and Wales. Amendment 62 would require steps under Clauses 8 and 19 to be taken by persons in England or Wales. As drafted, the Bill requires that most of the steps in Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19 will already have to take place in England and Wales.

In addition, Amendment 62 would have the effect that, when the Secretary of State makes regulations under Clause 19, the Secretary of State must be in England and Wales at the moment they sign the regulations. This could lead to the regulations being improperly made and challenged should the Secretary of State not physically be in England or Wales at the time of signing the regulations. This raises a practical issue of workability, as I am sure the noble Baroness understands.

On the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, and the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, relating to Scotland and guidance that the Government have provided to the sponsor, as I am sure noble Lords will understand, and I have reiterated, we are providing technical and workability support to the sponsor on devolution issues, including those that have been raised. This is an evolving situation that will continue throughout the passage of the Bill.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am grateful to everybody who has taken part in this short debate. I pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, who discussed the issues with me yesterday and was incredibly clear in the way that she raised them today. She also raised the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Beith.

I will deal with three issues: first, where the GP practice has to be to satisfy the eligibility requirements; secondly, whether the Clause 5 conversation has to take place with an England and Wales GP, or whether it can take place with a Scottish GP; and thirdly, how we will deal with the clashes between Scotland and England. I am aware, because the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, told me about it, of the deposit return scheme and how that went wrong. I am conscious of that as an issue.

First, the noble Lord, Lord Beith, asks with his amendment whether the GP to whom you have to be a member of the practice can be in Scotland. The answer is no under the Bill at the moment. The Bill is clear that you have to be in a GP’s practice in England or Wales. Everybody has said to me that it is perfectly normal for a person living in England in the border areas to have a GP in Scotland, and asked why cannot we change the Bill to say that your GP could be in Scotland, because that reflects how people actually live.

I am sympathetic to that, but the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, legitimately points out that, if that happened, I would need to make various other changes. For example—and the noble Baroness made this point—under Clause 7, where there is a preliminary discussion it has to be sent to the GP, and the GP has to keep a proper record of it. How can I enforce that unless I expand the provisions of the Bill to allow Scottish enforcement, for which I would need Scottish agreement? My view in relation to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beith, is: let us see whether we can make it work, but it will require discussions with Scotland.

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[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has already been very helpful in the undertakings and clarificatory comments that he made earlier in the debate, so I shall be very brief. In following up those comments, I will return to the question that I raised on the previous group. The Bill seems consciously to steer clear of insisting that a person’s GP must always be involved in the process being pursued by that person in seeking an assisted death, other than the GP having a duty to note in the patient record that the preliminary discussion has taken place. The entire process, in other words, could be conducted by the patient in conjunction with hospital-based medical consultants.

Do I understand correctly that the noble and learned Lord is willing to look closely at ways of making sure, by whatever means, that the crucial judgments made by clinicians about a patient’s capacity, about coercion and about that person’s settled wish to end their life are firmly and soundly based? The route to achieving that may well be the GP practice and the multidisciplinary team within it, but, as we have heard, that source of information may not be practical or useful in every case. Will the noble and learned Lord therefore ensure that he will consider more generally in the round possible safeguards that will forestall the possibility of superficial or cursory assessments being made—especially, perhaps, assessments by hospital consultants, who may have enjoyed only a brief acquaintance with the patient?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions on proposed safeguards relating to general practice. I will keep my comments limited to the amendments on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns. On that basis, I draw noble Lords’ attention to the operational workability concerns in relation to Amendments 19, 20, 21, 29, 30B, 265A and 443A.

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I beg the Minister’s pardon but she is referring to my Amendments 30B, 265A and 443A, not those of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am most apologetic and grateful for the clarification. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, will forgive me, too.

I will continue. The GP must also have seen them at least six times in face-to-face appointments during those two years. Noble Lords may wish to note that these amendments introduce requirements that may result in people seeking GP appointments that are not clinically necessary. This may have an impact on wider access to GP services. Noble Lords may also wish to note that, even if a person has seen their GP the required number of times over the two-year period, their GP could still refuse to provide the explanatory letter, as they are not under any duty to participate in the provision of assistance, as per Clause 31. This would result in the person being unable to access an assisted death.

Lastly, Amendment 220, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, seeks to add an additional step in the assisted dying process. It would not be a compulsory step; therefore, it would not have a major impact or be unworkable. However, this amendment has not had technical drafting support from officials and, although the issues raised are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide, would likely require further consideration in order to be made fully workable, effective or enforceable.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

If there are on average 3.5 consultations a year face to face, with calls and so on bringing it up to 8.7, it would not necessarily make for additional unnecessary appointments for a person with such a condition. That is my first clarification. My second is about a letter being required and the doctor concerned not wanting to assist in the process. The letter is not about the process. The letter would go into the person’s history over the two years they have been consulting the doctor. It has nothing to do with the process of seeking an assisted death.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Acknowledging that the amendments that I was referring to were tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, I have nothing to add to the points that I have already made, other than to say that the noble Baroness used the word “average” and therefore there is a question about workability. Therefore, our interpretations on the noble Baroness’s second point do differ.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I indicated my position in my intervention. I will summarise my understanding of the amendment, what my response is and next steps. All the amendments in this group seek a requirement in addition to having a GP before you can have an assisted death. My noble friend Lord Rook suggests having a GP for at least 12 months and having seen him twice before the first declaration. The noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Grey-Thompson, refer to having an “established relationship” with a GP. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, refers to one consultation and a home visit before the application. The noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, refers to a two-year relationship, an average number of visits face to face and then a letter that relates to the medical condition, the treatment and the state of mind of the patient.

As I have indicated, the GP, in the structure of the Bill, is not somebody who has to be involved. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, encapsulated perfectly that the GP is somebody who is receiving information. All these provisions for making it necessary to have a better relationship with your GP than just having a GP do not touch the safeguards. Quite separately from that, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said. These provisions have an air of utter unreality if you are saying that a condition of an assisted death is a particular relationship with a particular GP. I do not think that any of these safeguards work or reflect the current drafting of the Bill.

It is clear from listening to the debate that people who are concerned with the care should form a basis for the decision. It may not necessarily be making the decision—a lot of people would say that they should not be making the approval—but their input is vital. That was the insight of the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, which was very much reflected around the Committee. I am willing and keen to reflect that insight in the Bill. But the route is not through newness in relation to the GP. It is reflecting the proposition that the multidisciplinary team dealing with the patient must have some input. I do not know whether that satisfies the question asked by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, but that is the purpose of what I am taking away from this very valuable debate.

As for the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, we are going to speak about prisoners on the next group. Can I reserve my position in relation to prisoners to avoid there being too much duplication?

In those circumstances, I invite the noble Lords not to press their amendments.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I have never been so popular; it will not last, I know.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for her amendments. I pay tribute to her for her sincere and long-standing commitment to protecting the most vulnerable in society. If we cast our minds back to Second Reading, many of the contributions made and concerns raised were regarding those who are the most vulnerable in our society. I remember at Second Reading being particularly touched by the words of the noble Lord, Lord Rees—he is not in his place now—who raised concerns about the vulnerability of some ethnic-minority communities, particularly those from disadvantaged communities as well.

Let us quickly rush through some of the points. On Amendment 22, which would make prisoners ineligible for end-of-life services as envisaged by the Bill, I completely understand the underlying principle. Many have spoken, rightly, about the vulnerability of prisoners. While for some it might seem wrong, as the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, has suggested, that a prisoner who has a terminal illness may have a way of cutting short their sentence by means of this Bill, as my noble friend Lady Coffey alluded to, others may say “Good riddance”. I also recognise the argument that prisoners with a terminal illness should be treated with the same compassion and care at the end of their lives as other terminally ill people subject to the Bill, as my noble friend Lord Markham recognised.

We also have to recognise some of the concerns over moral hazard. I do not know how large the incidence of this would be. Would it really encourage those who are terminally ill to commit crime? No studies have been done, but I am open to that concern. There is also the idea about higher levels of suicidal ideation, as raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. These are really important points that we have to take account of.

The right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lord Deben spoke about the pressure of reducing the prison population, while the noble Lord, Lord Carter, spoke about the higher rate of suicide among male prisoners. These are all reflections that should give us cause for concern, and things we should take account of as we consider what we will do between Committee and Report.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for raising the issue of those who are pregnant. As the noble Baroness said, this was not debated in the other place, so I am grateful that the noble Baroness was able to give us the opportunity to debate it. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, for sharing statistics about expectant mothers. It was important that we heard those stats. I cannot begin to imagine the difficulty an individual in those circumstances may face. I understand the concern that it does not seem right that the safety of an unborn child may be endangered under the provisions in the Bill. I also understand that there might be precedence in other legislation. I wonder what the noble and learned Lord’s reflections on that are, given his expertise.

I note the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, on access to this for those who are awaiting trial. Once again, I would be very interested in the noble and learned Lord’s legal experience on whether that seems relevant and should be within this Bill. During the debates on the Mental Health Bill, my noble friend Lady Berridge was assiduous in spotting gaps in legislation or inconsistencies between different Acts. My noble friend has done the same thing here by raising concerns over the vulnerability of those with education, health and care plans. I think this needs further consideration.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for her amendments relating to those who are homeless or who live in insecure and temporary accommodation. I welcome the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Gray. I still remember a conversation I had with one homeless charity that we are all one or two unlucky events or bad decisions away from homelessness. I heard from homeless people who told me that they had a great job and a great family life and that everything was going their way. They lost their job, which then led to them losing their marriage. After incidents of sofa surfing and testing the patience of their friends, they ended up homeless. It could happen to anyone. It is important that we do not dismiss the homeless as people who cannot be bothered or are idle. It could happen to anyone. Any noble Lords who have met those in homeless communities will know that some people had been incredibly successful but, after two or three bad decisions or unlucky things that happened in their life, they suddenly found themselves homeless. They are also judged by the way they look when they are homeless.

I remind all noble Lords that the Bill relates only to those who are suffering from a terminal illness and those who have been given an expectation that they will not live for longer than six months. We have to be very careful that, although we have sympathy for the homeless and prisoners, the Bill relates only to those who have a terminal illness. I know there are concerns that the Bill may be widened beyond that, but that is the debate at this stage. We should be quite clear that we are focusing on those with a terminal illness. So, much like on the question of prisoners and others, I recognise the arguments on all sides, but this is an opportune moment, not only because of time but because of the noble and learned Lord’s legal experience, to hear his reflections—after the Minister, obviously.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am most grateful.

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debate on this group. As is my consistent introduction, my remarks will focus only on issues where the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns. Many of the points that follow relate to the European Convention on Human Rights. These are risks that I am raising to inform noble Lords’ decision-making, as I said on the first group. I wish to be clear that the underlying policies are a matter for Parliament. I say to noble Lords who referred to my ministerial colleagues in the other place that it is the role of Ministers, whether in your Lordships’ House or in the other place, to flag the risks to the Bill, including potential legal challenges. As I said, policy decisions remain a matter for the sponsors. Decisions in this regard rest with Parliament.

I begin with Amendment 22, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and Amendment 30C, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Farmer. These amendments would make prisoners, a defendant on remand, a defendant on bail or those detained by a hospital order ineligible for assisted dying services, even if they have a terminal illness and meet all other criteria. Aside from the right to liberty—Article 5—the ECHR requires that prisoners, a defendant on remand or a defendant on bail should have the same rights as those who are not. The rights engaged by this amendment are Article 8 on the right to respect for private and family life and Article 14 on prohibition of discrimination. Noble Lords may wish to note the risk that making these groups ineligible for assisted dying would, on the face of it, lead to a difference in treatment, which would need to be objectively and reasonably justified in order to comply with ECHR obligations.

Likewise, making ineligible hospital in-patients who are under a hospital order would lead to a difference in treatment. Without sufficient justification for the discriminatory treatment, this may be a breach of the ECHR, which could lead the courts to issue a declaration of incompatibility.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has also tabled Amendments 24, 458, 308 and 347. The purpose of Amendments 24 and 458 is to exclude those who are pregnant from accessing assisted dying, while that of Amendments 308 and 347 is to make persons who are homeless, or living in supported or temporary accommodation, ineligible for assisted dying services. As I have previously noted, the reasons for this difference in treatment would need to be adequately justified to avoid the risk of a successful challenge under the ECHR.

[Baroness Stroud (Con)]

Can the Minister give her perspective on whether the arguments laid out today would be justifiable as reasons for a different form of treatment between the two categories: prisoners and non-prisoners?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is important I reclarify that that is a policy decision. What I am doing with your Lordships’ Committee is advising on risks, to assist noble Lords to make their decision regarding this policy.

Amendments 30A and 119A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, would exclude any person with an education, health and care plan from being eligible for an assisted death, except in cases provided for in regulations made by the Secretary of State. As drafted, these amendments could impose unclear and potentially undeliverable legal duties on the Secretary of State and are potentially not aligned with how EHCPs work in practice or in law. The amendments give rise to a number of unresolved operational questions that do not work with other provisions of the Bill and they are not drafted with sufficient specificity. That could lead to confusion for those interpreting the legislation and unintended outcomes.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

We are about to have a meeting to outline special additional conditions, so can I clarify that the Minister is not saying that that is not possible and just that the particular conditions outlined in Amendment 119A are not possible?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

First, I am referring to the amendments before us. Secondly, I am advising on risk and workability, again for the assistance of your Lordships’ Committee, which, as is correct and proper, will make the decision.

These amendments appear to treat people with EHCPs differently from those who do not have them. This could give rise to potential incompatibility with Article 14 of the ECHR, when read with Article 8, and would require reasonable justification for differential treatment.

Finally, as noble Lords will be aware, the amendments in this group have not had technical drafting support from officials, so the way they are drafted means that they may not be fully workable, effective or enforceable. However, as I have said, the issues raised are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide.

[Lord Carter of Haslemere (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to a number of articles of the ECHR, but she has not referred to Article 2, which is the duty on a state to protect life. That is why the courts have imposed a duty of care on the Prison Service and the Government to protect prisoners from committing suicide. My question goes back to what I said earlier: how do the Government reconcile that duty with a vulnerable prisoner applying for an assisted death? How does that square with the duty under Article 2 and the duty of care to prisoners?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I refer the noble Lord to the provisions within the Bill. His earlier question was very much about policy. I am sure that my noble and learned friend will also refer to this, but this is a matter of policy and therefore it is for Parliament to decide.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am obliged to noble Lords for all their questions. I will deal with the four issues that this group raises: prisoners, pregnant women, homeless people and those who are the subject of an education, health and care plan.

Turning first to prisoners, I declare my interest as chair of a prison charity, Liberty Kitchen. I have been involved in prison issues for a very long time; indeed, I was once the Minister responsible for prisons. When I was in that role, every time a prisoner committed suicide, it was deemed a failure of the Prison Service and something that we took incredibly seriously.

As far as prisoners are concerned, I will make two points. First, this is about people who are terminally ill and have six months or less to live. The question that the sponsors address is whether prisoners should be treated differently from the rest of the population. The posit is: if you are a prisoner and get a terminal illness, is the condition of the prison so terrible that you should never allow a prisoner ever to have that right?