Trade Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 15th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. I fell foul of the procedures myself today—I think I am still a new girl, navigating my way through these extraordinary times, but I pay tribute to the facilities we have and we are grateful to have the hybrid system that is working so well.

I shall speak to Amendments 81 and 83 and later amendments. For the record, I perhaps misled my noble friend the Minister in my question at Question Time, but I have the highest possible regard for members of the Trade and Agriculture Commission—they have proven their independence and their value to date. My noble friend said that they take no money for their role, so we are particularly grateful for their public service contribution. My noble friend will be under no illusion, however: I would like the commission to be independent and to have its own resources, its own staff and its own offices, and I shall continue my little campaign in that regard.

On appointments made under Amendment 81, can my noble friend put my mind at rest? What does the Governance Code for Public Appointments say about non-disclosure agreements? I am sure they do not sit comfortably within the present arrangements.

On Amendment 83 and the trade advisory groups, I noticed in the previous group that we had 17 expert trade advisory groups in July with, I think, 250 representatives. In August, we had fewer representatives and only 11 trade advisory groups. I would like to clarify, if I may, what the current composition is. Do they include, for example, anybody—a British national, ideally—who has first-hand experience of negotiating trade through the EU Commission, which would obviously be hugely beneficial at this time, as we set out negotiations on our own? To what extent is industry involved, either through the CBI or otherwise? I understand that the CBI was represented in the earlier trade advisory groups and it is extremely important, if the CBI is not represented, that we have some kind of business representation.

Can my noble friend also put my mind rest that services, both professional—such as legal services—and financial, have bodies that are represented through the trade advisory groups? If that is the case, could he please explain which they are?

I was delighted to sign Amendments 106, 107 and 108. I support the sentiments behind them and I consider them, at this stage, probing amendments, but it is extremely important that the Trade Remedies Authority also represents those categories. In Amendment 106, under proposed new sub-paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) I would add (e) and (f) to include representatives of business, professional and financial services as well, because services are so important to our future trading potential.

On Amendment 108, I repeat my earlier remarks and endorse the provision that a person should hold office

“for a fixed period of five years”,

which would, I think, increase the potential for independence. A fixed term would give Trade Remedies Authority members greater security of tenure and therefore reinforce their independence and impartiality. A commitment was given by my right honourable friend the Minister, Greg Hands, in Committee in the House of Commons, that people are appointed on merit following fair and open competition, in keeping with the Governance Code on Public Appointments. The code itself states that there is a strong presumption that no individual should serve more than two terms or serve in any post for more than 10 years, other than in exceptional circumstances. I therefore hope that my noble friend will see fit to put this in the Bill through this amendment.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad to follow my noble friend. My amendment in this group is Amendment 113, which I shall come to at the end, where it is listed. However, there are two other areas that I shall briefly touch on.

First, Amendment 81, and those linked to it, cover appointments to the Board of Trade, or indeed to the trade advisory groups. I have a disinclination, I have to say, for statute or, indeed, the Select Committees of either House to be reaching into government departments and telling Secretaries of State who they should have to advise them. Amendment 81 probably misses the point, in that there are, as I understand it, very few appointments to the Board of Trade as such; most of the appointments being discussed are appointments of advisers to the board rather than members of the board itself. However, that is neither here nor there from my point of view. If Ministers are able to give the Committee assurances about the balance they will bring, I would be perfectly happy that they are getting balanced advice—that is terribly important.

Secondly, on Amendment 107, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh are venturing back into the territory I ventured into on Tuesday. I said that there should be a pre-appointment hearing of the International Trade Select Committee of the other place for the appointment of the chair. I await a letter from my noble friend the Minister explaining why I am wrong. I may well be wrong, but the point was well made by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker: we are dealing here not with the appointment of those who advise the Secretary of State in his own department but an independent body. That independent body is accountable to Parliament, and Parliament should have a say, although not a determining say, in who is appointed to chair it.

I am not proposing, as Amendment 107 does, that these appointments of non-executive members of the Trade Remedies Authority should be subject to consent—that goes further than I would—but the appointment of the TRA chair is important. It has impact and, if not wide public importance, very wide business importance. It is something that should be clearly commented on by Parliament. That does not mean that Ministers cannot go ahead and appoint whom they wish. Indeed, even where there is a pre-appointment confirmatory hearing in other cases, Ministers, when I last looked, on nine occasions made recommendations to which Select Committees objected, and on six of those occasions, Ministers went ahead anyway. It would not prevent Ministers doing what they want to do, but it would give them Parliament’s view, so I am rather sympathetic to that amendment.

Amendment 113 is not about appointments or the membership of the TRA; it refers to Clause 6, which gives the Trade Remedies Authority the power—indeed, the obligation—to give advice to the Secretary of State in a number of respects, and the Secretary of State can request such advice. The Trade Remedies Authority is an independent body; there is a statutory relationship with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State may ask for advice. For example, and I make no apology for coming back to this, let us say that we are talking about the Airbus and Boeing dispute, and the Secretary of State has asked the Trade Remedies Authority for advice on the “trade remedy measures” adopted by the United States in relation to that dispute, as both sides have secured World Trade Organization consent to the imposition of additional duties. When the Secretary of State asks for that, it is something on which the Trade Remedies Authority should expose for accountability purposes that it has given advice when it comes to the annual report.

It is important, and the fact that its advice has been sought is also important. I do not expect the annual report to go into obsessive or spurious detail, but, when one makes an annual report for an independent body accountable to Parliament, it should tell us how and when this statutory provision has been deployed during the year.

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Moved by

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

85A: Clause 7, page 5, line 17, at end insert—
“(7) Nothing in regulations made under subsection (3) may require the disclosure of information or the production of documents which are subject to legal professional privilege.”

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, it makes sense to take Amendments 85A and 89A together and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so. It is generally believed in legal circles that Clause 7(1) and the whole of Clause 8 as currently drafted are extremely wide and give great discretion to HMRC to require information. A similar amendment was moved in the other place that these provisions should be much more clearly defined to give greater certainty about the extent of the information and the anticipated frequency of this method of data collection. As my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe described so clearly, while in normal circumstances it could be quite amusing, a breach of confidentiality or legal privilege is no laughing matter—and accidents and mistakes do happen. It is for that reason that Amendment 85A seeks to add at the end:

“Nothing in regulations made under subsection (3) may require the disclosure of information or the production of documents which are subject to legal professional privilege.”


Similar wording would be added to the relevant provisions of Clause 8.

I know that my noble friend Lord Younger went to some pains in summing up the previous debate to make it clear that the information would be provided on a voluntary basis—his defence was that there should be no compulsion. That indeed was the summing-up of my right honourable friend the Minister, Greg Hands, in the other place: that legal professional privilege was, in his words,

“a long-standing principle that protects the confidentiality of communications between lawyers and their lay clients and vice versa.—[Official Report, Commons Public Bill Committee, 25/6/20; col. 299.]

He went on to expand on why the principle is so important.

In thanking the Committee for the opportunity to speak to these amendments, I will say that it is felt that there are grounds to have these two amendments written into the Bill. Perhaps the Minister could meet me half way to make sure, by putting these phrases into the Bill, that there is absolutely no scope for anything to be done involuntarily or accidentally. With those few remarks, I beg to move.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we support these amendments and, broadly speaking, I could just repeat my comments on the previous group. So, if your Lordships could take them as read, I will not repeat them.

The powers of HMRC cannot ride roughshod over matters that are protected, in this instance by legal privilege. It seems to me that HMRC cannot be put above the law as a matter of principle. I will repeat that there are concerns because of the current provision in the Finance Bill seeking to obtain access to bank accounts that would normally have required a court’s approval. There is also doubt as to whether, within HMRC, there are the appropriate procedures for the proper handling of some of the information that it may demand. The issue is around the training and abilities of the people who may access or disclose things who, if previous form is to be followed, can be in relatively junior positions. I think that these are matters that HMRC is trying to address but, despite that, it seems improper to demand to acquire powers before any safeguards are in place. Also, legal privilege would appear to me to need special protection, and therefore provisions to achieve the aims of these amendments would be useful in the Bill.

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I will deal with Amendments 85A and 89A, in the name of my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, together, as they are closely related. My noble friend has written half my speech, because it echoes her remarks. Both amendments concern legal professional privilege, which, as noble Lords know, is a long-standing principle that protects the confidentiality of communications between lawyers and their lay clients, and vice versa. It enables lawyers to consult and advise their clients, without clients fearing that information will have to be disclosed later.

As a matter of general interest, any person who wishes to consult a lawyer must be free to do so under conditions which ensure uninhibited discussion. I do not believe it has been mentioned in this debate that this principle is recognised and protected under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. I can therefore provide an absolute assurance to the Committee that the Government have no intention, either now or in the future, of using these powers to seek or share information that is protected by legal professional privilege.

For Clause 7, the information being requested from exporters will be provided voluntarily. This has already been said by me and other noble Lords. That the information is being provided voluntarily is, perhaps, an indication of the Government’s position on minimising burdens and, therefore, not requiring privileged information to be disclosed.

As part of this short debate, it is crucial to make this point: Clause 8 allows for the sharing of data that is already held by HMRC for its administrative functions. Such information cannot, therefore, be subject to legal professional privilege, as it has already been provided to HMRC. However, I understand your Lordships’ concerns about data sharing, and I reassure the Committee about the safeguards we have put in place around the collection, handling and processing of information collected under this clause. In response to the winding-up speech of my noble friend Lady Noakes, who raised concerns despite my remarks, I take this opportunity to confirm that I will write to her and all noble Lords, and put a copy in the Library of both Houses, concerning those reassurances.

The data-sharing powers in this clause are permissive, so all instances of data sharing must be approved by HMRC. Criminal penalties for any unauthorised sharing of data will apply under the existing Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005. Nothing in the clause permits the disclosure of information that is not otherwise permitted in data protection law, including the Data Protection Act 2018 and the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. A lot of this was said in the remarks on the previous amendment. I hope that this provides the reassurance that my noble friend Lady McIntosh seeks on this point, and that she will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have contributed and for the support expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. I am slightly concerned by the response of my noble friend Lord Younger. I understand that Conservatives support, and have enshrined in this and other legislation, the European Convention on Human Rights, but it begs the question of what would happen if a future Government were to resile, so they were no longer a signatory to it. This is not beyond the realms of possibility as we leave the European Union. I realise that the Council of Europe is a separate organisation, but it begs the question.

As my noble friend Lord Younger so clearly said in summing up, legal professional privilege exists so that information can be communicated between lawyer and client. I am sure he recognises that many UK statutes already give express protection of legal professional privilege and that it is protected vigorously by the courts. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, was absolutely right that this is a probing amendment, but my concern is only that, if we do not insert something like this, my noble friend and the Government may face future court cases, in the event of a breach of legal professional privilege. Having expressed these concerns, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage.

Amendment 85A withdrawn.

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[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, this group consists of three government amendments, which are minor and technical in nature, together with an amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I will present the government amendments, before responding to Amendment 89. The amendments all relate to the data disclosure provisions at Clauses 8 and 9.

On government Amendment 86, it has always been our intention that the devolved Administrations should be able to access HMRC information to facilitate the exercise of their trade functions through the powers in the Bill. However, in recent discussions, colleagues in the devolved Administrations asked for their ability to receive information to be made more explicit in the Bill. I am happy to offer this clarity. This amendment puts beyond any perception of doubt that the devolved Administrations can access HMRC information for their trade functions through the Bill.

The associated government Amendment 96 is simply a consequence of Amendment 86, and explains what is meant by “devolved authority” for the purposes of the Bill. We have worked closely with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the data-sharing gateways in the Bill also assist them with their devolved functions. In this spirit, I make two further commitments to the devolved Administrations on data-sharing in Clause 9.

First, the data shared under Clause 9 will be used by the border impact centre and the Cabinet Office to develop strategic insights. They are committed to sharing strategic analysis related to flow of trade, where it will support the more effective management of flow through the border. I understand that Cabinet Office officials have been working closely with counterparts in the devolved Administrations to ensure that relevant analysis and information relating to trade and management of the border can be shared to support devolved functions. Examples of the types of information that the border impact centre intends to share with relevant parties in the devolved nations are flow patterns through ports. The Cabinet Office will continue to work with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the border impact centre provides strategic benefit to management of flow through key ports.

Secondly, the UK Government commit to consulting the devolved Administrations before any devolved authorities are added to, or removed from, the list of specified authorities that can share data under Clause 9.

Amendment 90 corrects a drafting omission in Clause 10(4)(b)(i) in relation to the imprisonment term for a person guilty of an offence who is liable in England and Wales on summary conviction. Clause 10 as currently drafted provides that a person guilty of an offence under the clause is liable on summary conviction in England and Wales to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine, or to both. Until the relevant provisions of the current Sentencing Bill are enacted and commenced, however, magistrates can impose a sentence of only up to six months’ imprisonment for a single offence in England and Wales.

In other legislation that provides for a maximum penalty of 12 months’ imprisonment on summary conviction, a provision concerning magistrates’ current sentencing powers is included to provide that reference to “12 months” is to be read as reference to six months until the relevant provisions of what will be the Sentencing Act are commenced. The amendment adds a similar provision to the Trade Bill.

I hope noble Lords will support these minor and technical government amendments.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to my noble friend Lord Grimstone for making these amendments. This flags up a constant issue, whereby issues are raised late and at quite short notice by the devolved Administrations, but it also flags up a broader issue for another day as to where we are with the common frameworks.

I want to put one question to the Minister about the remarks that he has just made. He refers to the fact that the Cabinet Office will be responsible for disclosing this information and making it available to the devolved Administrations under Clause 9. He went on to say that in future they will now be consulted under Clause 9. I want to go one step further and ask him, in the usual way, that they are not just consulted but that the Government wait for them to give their consent to these changes, particularly if they might not just be technical but could be substantial. It is extremely important to keep the devolved Administrations on side, given that there will be elections at some point in the future where this could be used to the Government’s disadvantage. Could the Minister just confirm that they might await consent rather than just consultation?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, as I am very supportive of this Bill and of my noble friend Lord Grimstone, I put my name down to support the Government. However, having listened to earlier exchanges on both information and legal privilege, and having studied the wide power in Clause 8(1), I am a little uneasy that the data being collected can be passed on to devolved authorities in the way provided for in Amendment 86. The devolveds will obviously have very different objectives on international trade that are not always compatible with those of the Government, and they may take a different view on who in the public or private sector can safely be sent data that in some cases will be confidential and sensitive to a company’s competitive position. I assure noble Lords that other countries in the world would not be so keen to risk the interests of their businesses.

As the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has said, we are not entirely clear who will be targeted. Will individuals be informed that their circumstances, if only reflected in a number, are the subject of trade policy discussions? I was thinking about scotch and the much smaller distilling interests in other parts of the UK. I am afraid I am also not entirely clear as to what borders my noble friend was talking about, although obviously I will look very carefully at his comments. As we are still in Committee, and therefore at the probing stage of some of these important amendments.

I am both curious about and a little uneasy with Amendment 89 from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, which I think forms part of this group. I was hoping to hear from him, particularly as I am not familiar with the customs legislation referred to. However, if I have understood it correctly, he seems to be adding very fierce penalties—imprisonment and/or a fine of up to 4% of a corporation’s annual turnover—for non-compliance. I have to say that I often agree with the noble Lord on business and enforcement issues, but these proposals could be disproportionate and damaging. They are penalties that stem in concept from EU law, notably competition law, and I have always had reservations about them. They seem likely to lead to companies hiring expensive lawyers and, more generally, to a loss of common sense and humility. I would also like to understand whether the financial penalties would apply to officials as well as to private operators. I suspect not, but the Minister may be able to clarify these matters.

To conclude, I urge my noble friend to be very careful in this area. The amendments are technical but it is very important that we get them right.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I will take advice from the clerk.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

We find ourselves in strange circumstances and I find it a little disconcerting. I have asked one specific question to which I would like a reply before the government amendments are adopted. Once they leave here, they become part of the Bill and we cannot come back on Report.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I wonder whether I could take advice from the Minister on whether to call a Division.