Smart Meters Bill

Baroness Maddock Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister said in his opening comments that this is a small technical Bill and, as is his wont, painted a very rosy picture. As we have heard, some of it is rosy but some of it is not quite so rosy.

It is difficult not to be too repetitive because noble Lords around the House agree that the Bill contains some positive measures and some negative measures. I think that very few people would disagree that smart meters will make a large contribution to our national energy infrastructure. We have heard, and we know, that they can assist consumers and energy suppliers to use energy more efficiently and to reduce costs on both sides. However, as others have said, we somehow fail to carry to fruition many energy and energy efficiency programmes in an efficient, timely and cost-effective way. The smart meters rollout is no exception and that is why we have this Bill before us today.

As others, including the Minister, have said, the Bill extends the Secretary of State’s powers to develop, amend and oversee regulations concerning the licensing of smart meters for gas and electricity usage. Presumably, we are discussing this issue because not everything has gone well in this area. The Bill sets up a new special administrative regime for the national smart meter communications and data service provider—in short, the DCC.

In the event of insolvency, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, highlighted many moons ago that there was a problem. Was this considered? We now know it was considered in the original discussions in 2008 but, nevertheless, we went along with it. We now have problems, and we have seen recently that dealing with it has been very slow.

The Bill also introduces new powers to modify industry codes and instruments directly to deliver a market-wide, half-hourly settlement that uses the smart meter data. There is agreement around the House that this would be a good thing but only, as my noble friend Lord Teverson said, if the meters work. The clause dealing with this came rather late in the day in another place. Will the Minister explain why? The original plan was that every household and small business in the UK would be offered a smart meter. We have already heard from others that the plan was for 2020; the Government now need proposals in this Bill giving them until 2023, and doubts have been raised this afternoon about whether they can do it by then. We have heard all sorts of statistics about how many meters will have to be put in every week to make this happen. Other concerns raised this afternoon concern data protection and privacy. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, gave us more detail on that.

We have also heard concerns about the installation and selling of this equipment to consumers. I have a particular gripe—I get rung up about smart meters and I realise that I am also being told we need to switch suppliers. I am not very good at doing this, but my husband has done it. I am concerned that, if I have a smart meter, I might not be able to have SMETS 1 and I may not be able to switch my supplier again; therefore, I am not prepared to say yes to the installation. When you have a conversation about this with someone representing the supplier, trying to persuade you, they do not seem to understand what you are talking about. There is a big issue about how people talk to consumers when they are trying to persuade them to have a smart meter.

We have also heard about costs. We know that around £11 billion will be spent and there have been projections of a net benefit of £5.8 billion. But, as others have highlighted, rollout is happening more slowly, so it is not clear that the cost benefit will work out as projected. The National Audit Office is reviewing the programme and plans to report this summer, looking specifically at whether the programme is on track and whether the economic case is still the same. I will not repeat how many meters have been put into houses; the big issue is that, while SMETS 1 installation has gone ahead, albeit not as fast as we would like, SMETS 2 is very slow. I have not done as much detailed digging as my noble friend Lord Teverson; the figures he put forward this afternoon are pretty frightening.

Good smart meters can play a part in helping those who find it difficult to pay for their energy—as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned. I am vice-president of National Energy Action, a charity that campaigns on fuel poverty, and I am grateful for its briefing. It is supportive of the programme, realising that it has good potential for helping people in fuel poverty. One thing it is particularly concerned about is the role of Ofgem in monitoring and enforcing minimum standards under the installation code of practice, because this is fundamental to the successful rollout. At the moment, there is little information about how or when individual suppliers are rolling out this technology or about their approach to engaging with customers, particularly vulnerable customers—I have talked about people like me—to ensure that they capture the benefits of more accurate billing, which the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, referred to. Nor is there much information about how they are helping people to get more of a handle on how they use their energy.

NEA would like to see Ofgem publish the annual rollout plans of individual suppliers and details of how many meters are installed annually. This could be broken down between SMETS 1 and SMETS 2 and the number of smart meters operating in pre-payment mode for those who find it really difficult to pay their energy bills. This could be done each quarter in line with other Ofgem E-Serve quarterly reporting. This information is not commercially sensitive and it would enable bodies such as NEA to offer bespoke advice to customers about when they can expect to benefit from their smart meters.

NEA also stresses that data protection should not be a key reason why more geographic-specific information cannot be put in the public domain. There are concerns and questions about data and data protection, which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, talked about, but we ought to be able to use the information without people’s data being used in the wrong way. If we developed a GIS-based map of where smart meters have been installed, that would be a great help to organisations all around the country—for example, to charities such as NEA. They could follow up the installations, amplifying the benefits and helping people by providing more extensive behaviour-change advice and support. It is clear that not all installers are providing this help—some are but some are not.

There is one acute concern about installations. We need to know that when an engineer leaves after putting in a smart meter, the heating still works. They might have said that a gas appliance was unsafe and turned it off. Obviously we want things to be safe but at the moment no government policy is in place to help people—particularly vulnerable households—to change a boiler, as used to be the case under the ECO. I had an exchange with the Minister about this back in the autumn because people were not able to replace their boilers—a situation that has got even worse during this cold winter. When I asked him about it, the Minister’s answer was, “Well, of course, we really believe in energy conservation now, and that’s where all the money is going”, but that does not help the person whose boiler needs to be replaced in the winter. We need to do both. From a sedentary position my noble friend says that it is more efficient.

NEA spends a lot of time talking to consumers and that is why it is so concerned about some of the issues that are not going as smoothly as they should. There is also an issue around price caps and pre-payment meters. The meter price cap is very closely linked to the smart meter rollout and to SMETS 2, and I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us a little more about that.

We have heard that Clauses 11 to 13 create powers to oversee the smart meter programme, but I have already highlighted that Ofgem is finding this quite difficult. However, it has now been asked to deal also with the half-hourly settlement. As others have said, this is a good thing because not only does it enable suppliers to offer different prices at different times of day—we have heard about other things that can help people to use their electric products more efficiently in the home—but it can assist in developing, nationwide, a more demand-led energy supply system. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, my noble friend Lord Teverson and I have raised this issue in successive energy Bills in this House. At one time it seemed that the Government did not understand that at all but they have cottoned on to it now and it is a welcome addition to the Bill.

Many people still do not have meters but research has shown that people who have them have changed their behaviour and are quite satisfied. In one survey, 75% of people said that they would recommend the meter to someone else; and 80% claimed that they were saving energy through their behavioural change.

If this is to continue we need to make sure that SMETS 2, the cleverer meter—so called—rolls out properly. People need to be able to change their supplier because we have two government policies working against each other—persuading people to have a meter, persuading them to change—and the two do not go together.

I welcome the Bill, as do many other noble Lords, but I am disappointed because it has highlighted many problems that perhaps could have been avoided. We keep falling into the same trap on several issues: we are bad at cost-benefit analysis and adjusting as time goes along; and we are bad at understanding human behaviour, which I appreciate is difficult. We assume all kinds of things about human behaviour which turn out not to be quite right. We need to be better at handling different scenarios.

I hope the Minister can assure the House that the programme will go forward in a more rosy way—I am sure he will; he usually does—and that he can reassure the House on some of the issues that have been raised today. There is common ground across the House and I look forward to his reply.

Smart Meters Bill

Baroness Maddock Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th April 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

Again, I will take advice on that. We will come back to it on a later amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has spoken about not moving further until we have a large number rolled out. However, my understanding is that this process is beginning to happen and that numbers are going up. The noble Baroness is looking at me in disbelief, as she so often does. We often disagree.

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

In defence of my noble friend, we have had briefings which tell us what she has just said to the Minister. I do not know where he gets his briefings, but the industry has briefed us and it is clear that SMETS 2 is not at the stage that he thinks it is.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not sure whether, strictly speaking, the noble Baroness is correct. My understanding is that the number of SMETS 2 installations will go up over the coming months, in which case it will be possible to test them, and therefore that by October we will be at a stage where we can go ahead. We have time on our hands on this matter and, as I said, I would like to have further meetings with the noble Baroness and others between now and Report. We could then go through some of these particular points.

At the moment perhaps I may get on with these amendments and come back to my point. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, there will be this change in October. SMETS 1 meters will no longer count, but suppliers will still be able to make use of their workforce in the installation process.

On the extension that the noble Lord is generously seeking on behalf of the Government, we do not think it can be justified. It would not send out the right signals and could even have—dare I say it?—an unhelpful impact. It could suggest that the Government would play an active role in leading the programme well beyond the point at which the self-sustaining industry model overseen by Ofgem is due to take over. It also risks undermining industry momentum in progressing the rollout just as suppliers are accelerating deployment with the new generation of meters being brought in. Delay to investment decisions and deployment would also bring delay to the benefits that accrue to consumers from receiving smart meters. In turn, that could impact on the pace of moving to a smart meter system with dynamic time-of-use tariffs made possible by smart meter installation. That is why we are firmly committed to the programme’s timetable as reflected in Clause 1.

The noble Lord referred to the NAO report. We welcomed it and the follow-up study on smart meters, and will work closely with the NAO to help review the progress of the programme, but I do not believe that the report necessarily means that we need a pause in the rollout. As the noble Lord knows, it is routine for the NAO periodically to examine every major government programme, as it did on smart metering in 2011 and 2014. We will take note of the report and discuss it with the NAO, but I do not think that the programme needs a pause.

Amendment 2 relates to the power to remove licensable activities. This amendment seeks to limit the extension of the Secretary of State’s power, so that beyond 1 November 2018 he would not be able to exercise the power to remove any licensable activities in respect of smart meter communications. The Government have so far used the power only to establish the provision of a smart meter communication service as a licensable activity. That ensures that we have a communications and data system that supports secure, reliable and interoperable services for smart meters. The DCC is playing a fundamental role in driving smart metering benefits, and we do not currently consider that we will exercise this power to remove the provision of a smart meter communication service as a licensable activity.

However, we cannot rule out that evidence could emerge to suggest that the removal of at least some elements of this licensable activity to the market could be justified. Retaining the power to remove licensable activities in respect of smart meter communications is therefore necessary as a backstop and is consistent with the Secretary of State’s principal objective of protecting the interests of energy consumers. The Secretary of State may also determine that it is appropriate and in energy consumers’ best interests to introduce further licensable activities in support of smart metering by 2023.

As detailed in our delegated powers memorandum, the smart metering programme continues to develop policy in a number of discrete areas, including overseeing the development of technical solutions delivering smart benefits to the small number of premises which are currently not expected to be served by the smart meter communications network as to do so would be disproportionately expensive. This is typically due to location and surroundings. For example, this can affect premises in highly built-up areas with many tall buildings as well as remote or mountainous areas.

One of the tools we may wish to use to deliver the policy is requiring activity to be licensed. For example, it might be considered appropriate to create a licensable activity that relates to arranging the establishment of communications to these properties. Should we introduce a new licensable activity here that is subsequently found no longer to be justified or needed, we would need to have retained until 1 November 2023 the ability swiftly to remove that licensable activity.

As the noble Lord will be aware, we have used the affirmative resolution procedure. We have also referred it to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It did not raise any issues with it. Further—I shall read this out because it is not often that one gets praise of this sort—the memorandum from the committee, in the part that I have highlighted, states:

“There is nothing in this Bill we would wish to draw to the attention of the House. We do, however, wish to commend the helpful and well-drafted memorandum about the delegated powers in the Bill, provided by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy”.


We do not often get praise, so I think that it is worth repeating it on this occasion to make sure that it is properly on the record. Obviously, it was already on the record, as it was in the committee’s 17th report—but I am grateful for the opportunity to repeat it.

Amendment 4 is the big amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and principally supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for what he said about it. He talked about there being confusion on a number of points, which I hope I can help deal with. He also spoke about moving from rollout by suppliers to rollout by DNOs, as happens in another country. I suggest to him that making such a change might bring more confusion and chaos than absolutely necessary. Let us first deal with the amendment and no doubt we can talk about that later.

The amendment would task Ofgem with consulting stakeholders and publishing a national plan for smart meters by 31 December 2018. It would then require the Secretary of State to specify the final version of such a plan in regulations. The large-scale rollout of smart meters across Great Britain by 2020 is a substantial technical, logistical and organisational challenge. As we have made clear, meeting that challenge depends on collective and co-ordinated delivery. I think that that programme should be led by the Government, who set the policy and regulatory framework for the realisation of the benefits. The rollout is delivered by energy suppliers, networks and others. Ofgem’s role is to make sure that consumers remain protected during the rollout, to monitor energy suppliers’ compliance with their obligations and potentially to enforce against any non-compliance. The Government have provided strong leadership and established governance frameworks, with clear roles and responsibilities, across all these parties. Under this leadership, the smart metering programme has already made substantial progress.

Given the scale of the challenge, I understand and welcome the noble Lord’s appetite for information and reassurance on progress. I remind him of the commitments that the Government made earlier in the passage of the Bill—namely, that we will publish an annual report on the progress of the smart metering implementation programme as well as an updated cost-benefit analysis in 2019, to reflect the state of play after the transition from SMETS 1 to SMETS 2 meters has taken effect.

In that context, it is not clear what the additional value of a national plan of the type proposed by the noble Lord would be. The purpose seems to be to task Ofgem with the oversight of smart metering implementation and to reduce the Government’s role. Such a change in approach would simply divert attention and resources from the rollout delivery and associated consumer benefits. The Government are rightly accountable for safeguarding the benefits of smart metering. The new clause would duplicate existing efforts to deliver an efficient rollout and would put an undue burden on Ofgem. Furthermore, requiring the Secretary of State to specify the final version of the national plan in regulations would limit his ability to use the Section 88 power, of which the noble Lord will be aware, to modify the smart metering framework in future. The purpose of the Bill is to enable the Government to respond to the operational realities of the rollout and to adjust the monitoring framework as may be required. The new clause would undermine that intent.

In summary, a high-level plan for the rollout of smart meters was set by the Government in their 2011 prospectus document, which establishes the framework for the rollout.

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[Baroness Featherstone]

My Lords, I tabled Amendment 11 to probe issues around the use of data obtained by the powers in the Bill. It takes the form of a review into the use and potential misuse of the data obtained via the smart meters scheme. The review would look at the risks of data theft and of data being passed to a third party without the consent of the consumer, and if the risk of theft or passing on without consent was substantial the report would bring forward measures to be implemented to combat such events. Lastly, the amendment would require the Secretary of State to lay a report of that review before both Houses within six months of the Act coming into force.

I think the intent of the amendment is quite clear. We have recently seen the extreme value of data to a number of organisations. It is clearly valuable in a world where we create and feed markets through information, and the more personal that information, the more targeted sales or persuasion can be. The amendment seeks to put measures in place to mitigate those risks.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, Amendment 6, in my name, refers to issues that I raised at Second Reading. It calls for a review of the code of practice for energy suppliers. It is a probing amendment. I am anxious to get a bit more information from the Government about how they understand consumer engagement because I feel that whenever we are trying to deal with these issues human behaviour is the last thing about which we have serious concern. If we look back at the Green Deal, some of the disasters there were due to human behaviour, so it is important that we understand how people react. Indeed, the success of the rollout depends on consumers and consumer confidence, yet, as we have already heard, they are not obliged to have a smart meter. Therefore, how they react to the proposals is very important.

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The noble Baroness also touched on the travails she has had on the telephone in dealing with some suppliers. She referred to “You and Yours”, which I am afraid I do not often get the time to listen to but I will make sure that those particular concerns are brought to me. She also referred to examples of gas being turned off. She will be aware that it is obviously the duty of any gas operative—if there is any danger, even a small perceived one—to go down that route and if it is unsafe to ensure that it is turned off.

[Baroness Maddock]

I made two points about gas. When it is turned off, I certainly do not expect them to allow things that are unsafe. My point was that there is no provision for somebody in poor circumstances—say they are elderly and they have a smart meter put in and it is the middle of winter and they cannot use their boiler—to get a new boiler. I think the Government need to look at this. It is a very small point but there will be several people affected by it.

The Minister has explained how the process works at the moment and how the code of conduct works and how it can be amended. Can he tell us how it has been amended as the process has gone along?

[Lord Henley]

I would prefer to write to the noble Baroness regarding any amendments that have taken place. I, like others involved in this, but not all, am relatively new to the subject—but it has been going for some time, so I imagine that amendments have been taking place.

I think the noble Baroness suggested earlier—just in terms of the travails on the telephone—a degree of aggression.

[Baroness Maddock]

It was the lack of understanding of the person who was trying to persuade to have a meter of how it worked and what the options were and whether they were interoperable.

[Lord Henley]

If the operator could not cope with the noble Baroness, obviously they probably need further training. I think that is probably a matter for that particular supplier. There is guidance for them and they should take every opportunity to treat all domestic customers fairly and to be as transparent and accurate as possible in their communications. I hope that they will continue to do so. I note what the noble Baroness said.

I hope I have dealt with the three amendments in sufficient detail and I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw Amendment 3.

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Moved by

[Baroness Maddock]

5: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
“Review: use of powers to impact energy use in the United Kingdom
(1) The Secretary of State must commission a review to consider how the extended use of powers provided for in section 1 will impact energy use in the United Kingdom, with particular reference to—(a) the impact on fuel poverty; and(b) the impact on energy efficiency.(2) The Secretary of State must lay the report of the review under subsection (1) before each House of Parliament within 12 months of this section coming into force.”

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 5—I hope I have got the right number this time and I apologise if I confused people before.

This is a probing amendment. I have raised issues with the Government before about the interoperability and the joining-up of the different policies that we have. Fuel poverty is an area in which I take an interest and the Bill impacts on fuel poverty strategy and affects those in fuel poverty. It also impacts on energy efficiency, which, as the Government have made clear, is one of the reasons for the programme. However, I am never quite sure how good the Government are at joining everything up. The amendment therefore asks the Government to review how this programme is affecting the fuel poverty and energy efficiency programmes and how it can benefit them.

On fuel poverty, the ability for people on low incomes to get an accurate bill and save energy is important. We know that shock bills can create a sense of fear in people and quite often that is why they end up going into debt. Inaccurate bills can sometimes have the same effect and we recognise that part of this development is to prevent people receiving inaccurate bills. Any delays in the programme will have a greater adverse effect on those who are in fuel poverty or are vulnerable in some way or another.

The pre-payment meter price cap, to which we will come later, is still closely linked with the smart meter rollout. One area of the rollout concerns me. Smart meters have been of great benefit to people on pre-paid meters but I understand there might be problems later when the SMETS 2 come in. Could the Minister reassure us that the Government have this in hand, because some people are concerned about how it might work out?

I learned today something that neither I nor my colleagues had heard of before. Photovoltaics on roofs is one of the energy efficiency programmes that we have introduced in the past, but when one of my colleagues in the House who has such a system asked for a smart meter she was told that she could not have one. However, she might be able to when SMETS 2 comes in. So there are two questions about the SMETS 2 meters: are people who pre-pay going to suffer and what are we doing about people with solar panels? Do the Government know how many houses have solar panels? That is a whole chunk out at the moment. If that is the case, they should be the first people to get SMETS 2. Somebody should try to target it in that way.

The other issue is one that I have discovered, I think from the briefings we got from Smart Energy GB, which is the fact that not everybody has an in-house display when they have their meter fitted. I was quite shocked by this because I thought that was the whole point. As it said in the briefings I received from it, some people have meters in very strange places—in cupboards under the stairs and all sorts of places. I cannot understand why the programme was not insisting that, when you have a smart meter, you have an in-house display, otherwise many of the benefits that we hope smart meters will bring are somewhat negated if you cannot read it very easily.

I am not going to prolong the Committee much longer, but it is important, whenever the Government review what is going on with the smart meter rollout, that they think carefully about the other areas of policy. As I said, and as I raised before, I am particularly concerned about those in fuel poverty. I know that the smart meter rollout companies are working quite carefully with other people to help those in fuel poverty. I declared an interest at Second Reading because I am a vice-president of a fuel poverty charity, National Energy Action. I would be interested to hear whether the Minister can answer a couple of the questions I have given him. I urge that, whatever reviews we have, we must sometimes refer to how it is impacting on other government policies. I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendments 12 and 13. One of the things that has exercised me most about this programme is how, in the transition from SMETS 1 to SMETS 2, we assess that we are sufficiently there to fire the gun to roll out what is an £11 billion programme. That is not an insignificant amount of money. My noble friend Lady Featherstone pointed to the congestion charge. I do not know what it cost to roll out; it was expensive, but I suspect it was not anywhere near £11 billion. That is why it is important, before the rest of this happens, that we make sure we are in the right place.

I understand that we currently have some 300 SMETS meters out there being tested. I also understand that there is still a further software upgrade to happen in September—I would be interested to know whether that is the case—yet we have a deadline of October, which is only some six months away. That is why I am saying in the amendment—it is rather a blunt instrument and probably would not be absolutely correct for the final Bill—that there should be some 500,000 SMETS 2 meters out there to make sure that this market works. That seems like a huge number, but I remind noble Lords that it is 1% of the total number of meters that have to be smart by the end of this programme—some 47 million to 50 million. That is why, in terms of the size of the programme and the length of time we have already taken in getting it right and getting consumer confidence, I am trying to understand from the Government and the Minister what tests they have and what threshold they are expecting to see before they say that the programme is fully fit for purpose, they have confidence and they are going to roll the rest of it out as SMETS 2—SMETS 1 no longer, although we have 10 million of those meters already. What is the threshold that says that they have the confidence to roll out one of the most expensive projects? I am not sure that it is as expensive as Hinkley C, but it probably will be by the end of the Hinkley C programme. It is a huge amount of money and a huge national investment that is really important for the future, so what is the threshold test before we roll it out with confidence?

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, £1 billion here, £1 billion there and pretty soon we are talking real money. I will deal with the amendments in the order they came: that is, Amendments 5, 7, 12 and 13. Amendments 12 and 13 go together. Actually, all three go together, but there was some confusion.

Starting with Amendment 5, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, on energy efficiency and fuel poverty, I ought to say in passing that I very much support the spirit behind these amendments but I am concerned that they could undermine the efficient delivery of the rollout and could lead to unintended consequences and costs for consumers. But I will deal with the amendments one by one, starting with Amendment 5.

One of the main objectives of the smart meter rollout in Great Britain—it does not apply to Northern Ireland—is to put consumers in control of their energy use so that they become more informed and efficient, and save themselves money. Smart metering will reduce the costs for prepayment customers and enable remote topping-up, meaning that some of Britain’s hardest-pressed energy consumers will have access to more competitive deals and more convenience in paying for their energy. I was grateful for what the noble Baroness said about people with prepayment meters and the price cap. We will get on to the price cap for others more generally, but it is already in existence for people with prepayment meters and I think that it has been working with some success.

If I heard her aright, the noble Baroness said that she had heard that SMETS 2 meters posed a problem for some prepayment customers. We believe that SMETS 1 meters provide significant smart functionality to consumers, but SMETS 2 will provide them with additional benefits and will allow consumers always to retain smart functionality when they switch suppliers. SMETS 2 meters will also allow consumers, if they choose, to share data with third parties, and those third parties may be able to offer, for example, tailored energy-efficiency advice, which could be of use to certain customers.

Amendment 5 would introduce a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to commission a review to consider how the extended use of powers would impact energy use in the United Kingdom, with a particular focus on the impact on fuel poverty and energy efficiency.

With in-home displays offered to households as part of the installation, low-credit alerts are more visible, giving consumers an early warning. The ability for consumers to set a budget and to see exactly how much they are using, in pounds and pence, is giving prepayment consumers control over their energy use and contributing to greater levels of satisfaction among prepayment consumers. Certainly, the research that we have done shows that 84% of smart prepayment customers are satisfied with their smart meters and 88% are likely to recommend them. Government research shows that eight out of 10 would recommend them to family or friends, and 82% of people with a smart meter have taken at least one step to reduce their energy use. British Gas is reporting that its dual fuel customers with smart meters are making sustained 4% annual energy savings.

To some extent, that brings me on to the question about accessibility of meters raised by the noble Baroness. As she is well aware, the accessibility of existing meters can be pretty difficult, as I discovered in London the other day as I lay down on the floor trying to read a meter. I realised that I did not have my reading glasses with me but then realised that reading glasses would not help as I was wearing my contact lenses. It is a minor problem for someone in a reasonably fit state, but we accept that reading meters can be difficult for certain people, depending on where the meters are put.

The technical specifications for IHDs require them to be designed to enable the information on them to be easily accessed and presented in a form that is clear and easy to understand, including by consumers with impaired sight, memory, learning ability or dexterity. Energy suppliers, led by Energy UK, have been working together to develop a fully accessible IHD, and we expect that device to be available shortly. If it can be made available to those who have problems, the noble Baroness and I will also find it a great deal easier.

[Baroness Maddock]

The thing that surprises me—and I have not really had an answer to it—is why, when the Government planned the programme, it was not part of the plan that everybody with a smart meter should have an in-home display. It would be an obvious enhancement and would not be difficult. I do not know why it was not thought that this should be insisted on from the beginning.

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[Lord Henley]

I am afraid I do not recognise what the noble Lord has offered. I suggest that we continue discussions on this. What the noble Lord is putting to me is not what has been put in front of me in other places. As I said, we will continue to monitor matters and to provide information. That will be sufficient to deal with the amendments. If the noble Lord would like to continue to make these strange allegations about what is happening, we can continue to do that in the discussions that I offered when dealing with the first amendment.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his full response to me on Amendment 5. I am still not totally convinced that the Government always look very carefully at how their different policies interact. I am grateful that he has asked for extra information about the photovoltaics. It was new to me and I will come back to him with a bit more detail. Let us hope that it is just a one-off—that the supplier was just not very interested in doing this particular person’s house and that there is nothing more to it than that. I was quite shocked: lots of people have photovoltaics and if that really was the case we really need to do something about it. As I said, it was a probing amendment to try to open up discussion on these issues that I am concerned about. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 5.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.