High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill
Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara(11 years ago)
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Baroness Kramer
My Lords, what a tremendous debate. Every time this issue comes before the House I learn more, which adds very much to the pleasure. I, too, was appreciative that the Secretary of State came to listen to the early speeches; he then had to leave to vote, but I know that he will read the rest of this debate. I know that that information flow to him is very much appreciated on his part.
Obviously, the overwhelming majority of noble Lords who spoke today spoke so strongly and positively in favour of HS2 and the high-speed rail network that once again I feel almost that the comments that I can make are somewhat redundant; they have been almost better covered by other noble Lords who have spoken. I will begin by trying to pick up on the questions from noble Lords who were perhaps more sceptical, and in particular that issue of cost that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, mentioned, which was also mentioned by other noble Lords—by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, in particular, and in a slightly different way by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.
The cost of the project—the budget—has been set at £42.6 billion. The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, mentioned the figure of £73 billion, which was floated in the Financial Times and some other parts of the press. That is a mischievous number, because of the way in which it is constructed; I was quite sad to see it in a respectable newspaper. It included things like VAT, which obviously comes back to the Treasury and is therefore not a cost to the taxpayer. It also included inflation, although we look at infrastructure projects using current numbers rather than inflated numbers because we do not look at the benefits in inflated numbers. A mischief-making number has, unfortunately, been introduced into this conversation.
I shall say more about cost, because it is important—and what I have to say about it will also address some of the other issues that have been raised. The work that has been done in preparation for High Speed 2, to the point where it is now ready for phase 1 to appear in a hybrid Bill, is far more intense than that for any previous hybrid Bill. I think that that degree of preparation is a good thing, and I am cleared to say that the hybrid Bill will be introduced in the Commons on Monday. That degree of detailed examination and preparation gives us far greater confidence in the actual numbers, particularly for phase 1.
As the noble Lord, Lord Davies, will know—he has read the strategic case—High Speed 2 now estimates that, without any contingency, it could bring in phase 1 at £15.6 billion. The Secretary of State has said that we need to have a little contingency, but he wants to see this come in at £17.16 billion or less. That is the pressure being put on Sir David Higgins, and he feels that it is pressure that he can accept. That is a much crisper number than the more overarching number, including contingency, that we have generally been using. I ask that, as people look at the strategic case, they understand that we are talking about the overarching budget, but that underneath that there is huge pressure to ensure that the cost is pushed down, and we can do that with more and more confidence because of the level of detail that we now have. I hope that that also explains to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, why there is a generous contingency in all this. The contingency does not reflect the fact that there is very detailed work going on to push the cost down.
That consideration also speaks somewhat to the governance point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank. Sir David Higgins, when he comes in, will make governance and driving down cost two of his highest priorities. The governance programme, which sounds incredibly complex as it is read out in a paragraph, actually reflects a number of bodies that have come together to increase the downward pressure on costs. That is part of the reason why there have been so many parties so absolutely focused on ensuring that the costs of the project have been reduced to the greatest extent possible.
In the same context, Sir David Higgins has said that he will look at delivering HS2 faster. There is an underlying question here, which I picked up from a number of people today—for example, from the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh—along the lines of, “Why don’t we start both phases pretty much at the same time?” The answer is that we have the detailed work to be able to go ahead with the hybrid Bill for phase 1, and to hold that up in order to bring phase 2 to the same degree of preparation would hold back the whole project. We are in a position to move much faster on phase 1. I have heard many people in the House today talking about the importance of going as fast as possible; they compared us unfavourably with France, and I can understand why. We are doing this in phases so that we can get into the ground at the earliest possible date.
Benefits will flow from phase 1 alone. It is true that the maximum benefits will come when phase 2 is completed, but from phase 1 alone there is already an advantage, both in capacity going from London through to Birmingham—on the most congested set of routes that we could possibly have—and also in terms of starting the time reduction, which, as others have said, adds to the connectivity and the potential for development in the north and the Midlands.
The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, referred to the Bill as a blank cheque and asked why it does not have a monetary figure in it. The Bill gives permission for preparatory expenditure and contains a very vigorous reporting process under which the Government must report back annually and record any deviation from budget, and the consequences of that. The wording of the Bill has been strengthened somewhat in the other place, which has put in place a very intense scrutiny process around the budget.
One of the reasons why there is no monetary figure is because this is not just the paving Bill for HS2 but allows us to look at extensions. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, talked about the importance of going beyond HS2 and looking at Scotland. I was up in Glasgow and Edinburgh just over a week ago, announcing formally the initiation of a study which will look at bringing the benefits of high speed to Scotland. Automatic benefits come from bringing High Speed 2 as far as Leeds and Manchester. In fact, Scotland benefits even from the run to Birmingham. However, taking it beyond that, the study will look at how to maximise high speed on existing rail lines and at potentially building what some people have dubbed “High Speed 3”. This paving Bill creates the context for what in the end will be a high-speed rail network. The word “network” matters in the context of some of the questions about economic growth. Dedicated high-speed trains can run only on high-speed lines. However, in addition, these lines can be used by the classic trains which currently operate on our long-distance services. They can travel part of their journey on a high-speed line and then deviate off on to the west coast main line and various other lines, creating a much more interconnected network.
The noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Cormack, and, to some extent, the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, raised concerns about the Chilterns and its highly valued landscape. We all value that landscape; I do not think there is any question about that. However, I think that we have also always understood that there are circumstances in which we have to weigh the significance of infrastructure projects against that value. We must mitigate any effects to the extent that we can. I listed earlier many of the mitigations. Looking much more narrowly at the Chilterns, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that, between Chalfont St Peter and Hyde Heath, which is a distance of 8.3 miles, of which 5.8 miles lies in the area of outstanding natural beauty, the route will be in a tunnel. To minimise the visual impact in the AONB, the following mitigation measures will also be taken: 3.5 miles in cuttings; 1.5 miles in “green tunnel”; 0.6 miles on viaducts; and 1.4 miles with embankments. This means that fewer than two miles of the 13 miles of the route through the Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty will be at surface level or above. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has asked why we cannot extend the tunnel. Unfortunately, that would require the construction of ventilation shafts and an emergency access station at Little Missenden. Weighing that damaging environmental impact against the current mitigations has led us to the conclusion that we have used tunnelling to the best effect.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, and it is a very trivial point, but it would have helped if we had been able to have the meeting that I requested over a month ago. It has not yet happened and if it had, we could have explained this. This canard about having to open up an opening near Little Missenden is not what is proposed. The alternative, which I sketched out for her and which I am happy to present to her in more detail, provides for an opening, required under European law, to be within the 22 miles covered by the AONB. It is near Wendover—in fact, at Wendover Dean—it is agreed by residents, agreed by all the authorities around and does not affect the central part of the Chilterns. This point was raised by her predecessor in a debate more than a year ago, and I tried to correct it then. I am clearly not effective at doing that, so can we please meet?
Baroness Kramer
As we agreed earlier, I am looking forward to that meeting and I apologise. Because I am new to the department, it has basically been triage. I regret that we did not have the chance to have that meeting before this debate, but we will have it. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, recognises, the course of the hybrid Bill will address many of these issues.
The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, was very concerned that HS2 is a London-centric project rather than one which will spread economic opportunity out across the country. I could make the case in the other direction— I thought that I had in my opening speech, as had the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and others, in the course of their speeches. I pray in aid the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, who from his position in Greater Manchester has been able to represent to this House today the great potential that Manchester and the other great cities of the north and the Midlands have seen in this project.
They are using this opportunity in a very positive way, which perhaps is relatively new as a British approach to infrastructure. So often, we have built an infrastructure project in a silo and left it to see if anything good generates around it. In this case, the noble Lord, Lord Smith, and others are working within the various local authorities and within the various key cities. My noble friend Lord Deighton, too, is working with his task force in order to try to reinforce and support the process. This is a very different approach that will ensure that we garner the economic benefits.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, reiterated the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, of development corporations. It is certainly true that the Mayor of London would be able to initiate them—that is already within his competencies. However, the Government are waiting to see how local communities in the areas that will be impacted by HS2 will wish to take these issues forward. It is within the concept of devolution that Whitehall should not always know best how each individual area should approach these questions, but I suspect that in many of the schemes and developments that develop, we will look to capture development gain in various ways. Indeed, the Government have already said that they expect all the stations to be built, essentially, with private money, which in and of itself is a development-gain process. So I fully appreciate those comments and I know that they will be studied closely as we go forward.
The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, raised an issue that has been in some of the literature that has been coming through people’s doors and which I would like to take on. He argues that we are not at capacity, citing an example quoted by one of the campaigning organisations, that trains are only 52% full in the evening peak. I think he is referring to a Virgin long-distance train. Certainly, regional and commuter trains are incredibly heavily used. To remove that Virgin train from the train paths in order to allow expansion of regional and commuter traffic would be a drastic option, widely opposed by passengers. There is sometimes no easy trade-off between the issue of train paths and usage at particular times. I also point out that the evening peak is a very well spread peak. During the morning peak we are pretty close to anyone’s definition of being out of capacity as it is, never mind in the circumstances that we will face as we get to the 2020s.
Perhaps I may move on to thank those who spoke so effectively and with much knowledge in favour of this high-speed rail network project. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, called on the spirit of the Victorian pioneers and the spirit of cross-party working. Both have to inform the way in which we move forward. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked from his experience of actually running the four lines that go out of London. That is always an invaluable and incredibly practical touchstone as we move forward in these debates.
My noble friend Lord Freeman brought to us the experience of being the Transport Minister for HS1. That project gave us the confidence to move ahead with HS2, and the lessons that he is able to bring to this debate are therefore crucial. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, again reminded us of the freight conundrum that we face. In passing, he also reminded us that it is not just the Chilterns that have an issue but the area around Camden, Euston station and the HS1-HS2 link. We must appreciate and do everything we can to achieve the necessary mitigations. In this case, there is close working now between Camden Council and Network Rail, although many issues have yet to be resolved and answered.
The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, provided a constant reminder of the lack of alternatives to HS2. The point was put more clearly by the noble Lord, Lord Snape, when he said: if not HS2, what? One alternative is likely to be an exceedingly intrusive motorway. I am afraid that there would be not just one six-lane motorway if we do not build HS2 but probably two. The impact of that on the environment, communities and areas of natural beauty would be something that this House would, frankly, not relish.
I cannot remember whether it was my noble friend Lord Cormack or my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising who talked about aviation as an alternative. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, hit the nail on the head; the discussion around aviation capacity is primarily around international capacity rather than around attempts to build up a domestic aviation network of much greater intensity, but I will obviously bow to the Davies commission as it considers capacity issues in the south-east.
I should say thank you to the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, because on this occasion and previously he made a point that was picked up by others about the cluster potential. That was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, from the perspective that he and Manchester are looking at development. My noble friend Lord Teverson shared with us reports from Kent of the change from a negative to a positive attitude because of the experience of the benefits of regeneration as a result of HS1.
I am sure that in this whole process there are questions that I have failed to answer. I am reminded that I am coming to my boundary of 20 minutes. I feel that I have had the opportunity to listen to an exciting debate, and if I have not responded to questions we will do so afterwards. Perhaps I may conclude by saying this: let us protect the Victorian spirit that built our railroads, but let us look for an infrastructure that is not Victorian but modern and 21st-century so that we can build the economy of the future. I thank this House and I formally ask that the Bill be now read a second time.
Financial Services Bill
Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 140A, which is in this group. It is slightly different but we did not seek to have it regrouped, just in the interest of time. Amendment 140A would establish in the Bill that the PRA and FCA are considered equal in status. We have a letter from the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, dated 18 June, which indicates that it is the Government’s intention to have parity of status, but I would defy anyone to read the Bill and come away with that particular conclusion. In the Bill, as your Lordships will be aware, the PRA has the right to veto certain of the FCA’s regulatory actions. I have no problem with that—it can be right and proper—but it reads over very quickly into a sense that the PRA is the superior body. The PRA is also part of the Bank of England family, a very powerful family. The FCA stands outside of that, which is right and proper. However, it creates the issue about the balance between those two regulators, particularly since the Governor of the Bank of England chairs the PRA as well as the FPC and the MPC. The FCA therefore stands in a different relationship to the governor and has a very different role. The governor is a very important individual in the international community in terms of public recognition and public standing.
Building a little on the comments just made about culture and behaviour by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, we must recognise that within departments there tends to be a sort of default behaviour to live in a silo. It is very difficult to persuade organisations to co-ordinate effectively with each other, and to have the kind of respect that goes with parity. Although there is a memorandum of understanding, a great deal of judgment is involved in that memorandum in terms of deciding when it is appropriate to share information, to consult and to co-ordinate. It depends a great deal upon attitude. I have been in at least two meetings with members who were a fairly broad representation of the financial services sector when it has been evident that the assumption of the sector is that the PRA is the lead institution and the tough guy, and that the FCA plays a somewhat secondary role.
This is of particular concern because of the range of financial services sectors that the FCA will regulate. It comprises 27,000 firms contributing £63 billion in tax revenues, providing over 2 million jobs, two-thirds of which are outside London. We must be very careful that it is not regarded as second class in its role. The London Stock Exchange is particularly concerned about this issue because of the role that the FCA must play in Europe. As your Lordships know, it has the seat of ESMA, which is highly significant. The UK market accounts for between 60% and 80% of EU securities trading but has only 8% of the vote on ESMA. Therefore, the status, standing and significance of the FCA will matter enormously in those European discussions which affect the City, the financial services industry, and the international world of finance more generally.
This amendment seeks to, in a sense, make it clear in the Bill that the FCA does not have second-class status and that it is equal in its standing with the PRA. It seeks to make sure that that then gets embedded into the culture of how these regulators relate to each other and co-ordinate with each other, and that the FCA has standing in international eyes, and is recognised by international regulators as the body they can appropriately talk to, and not as a body that they must go around in order to speak to the genuine powerhouses.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 140A, 140BA, 140DA, 143C and 144JA. Amendments 140AA to 140DA appear to be, to use the words of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, in the same territory as those amendments that he was proposing and which have also been supported by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. Therefore, I do not think that we need to say much more except that we support them. We hope that our points will also be taken into account—they are relatively self-explanatory. We look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
Amendments 143C and 144JA, raised in the other place, are intended to probe the practical aspects of co-ordination behind the FCA and the PRA on the ground—for example, across the membership of the boards. Schedule 3 on page 177 makes provision for the Bank’s deputy governor for prudential regulation to be on the FCA board. However, paragraph 6 states that:
“The Bank’s Deputy Governor … must not take part in any discussion by or decision of the FCA which relates to (a) the exercise of the FCA’s functions in relation to a particular person, or (b) a decision not to exercise those functions”.
Similarly, new Schedule 1ZB(5) states that:
“The chief executive of the FCA must not take part in any discussion by or decision of the PRA which relates to”—
I do not need to quote it further, it is very similar. There we have two deputy governors, supposedly sitting on these two boards to aid the co-ordination of these two bodies and to have cross-membership, and yet there is a provision that gags those two individuals and prevents them getting involved in discussions in certain areas. There may be a rational reason for this but it beats me as to what might be.
There is a further point. Paragraph 5 on page 177 of the Bill states;
“The validity of any act of the FCA is not affected”,
if there is a vacancy in the office of deputy governor, or if there is
“a defect in the appointment of a person”,
to those boards. However, if a deputy governor happens to stray in discussions into areas that relate to a particular person or to a decision on exercising a function, might there not be a serious risk that on judicial review—for example, a third party could challenge the validity of any act of the FCA—should it be discovered that the deputy governor had uttered a phrase or misspoken in a particular way about a particular person or issue?
One must be concerned about enshrining restrictions on the things that board members can and cannot utter so that they cannot take part in a decision. How would that be implemented? Would they have to leave the room when one of these topics came up? Would every single decision of the FCA and the PRA have to be separated into generic and operational questions? It would surely not be right to fetter internal discussions in this way. If it is right to put them on the boards of both organisations, it must be right to let them discuss everything that comes up on those boards. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to these points.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments 143ZB to 143ZD as well as Amendment 144EA. This group of amendments relate to the consumer advice functions of the FCA, currently delivered through the Money Advice Service, and the separate responsibility that the MAS has for co-ordinating debt advice. I declare my interest as a chair of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, the country’s leading debt advice charity, which has helped more than 1.3 million people in the last few years to deal with their unmanageable debts.
I start by asking the Minister if he can confirm the Government’s intention to retain the status quo in this area in so far as the body known as the Money Advice Service is concerned. MAS has responsibility for delivering money advice to members of the public as part of its consumer education function and has recently assumed responsibility for co-ordinating debt advice, which is currently delivered by a number of charitable bodies, including Citizens Advice, the Money Advice Trust and the Consumer Credit Counselling Service.
As your Lordships’ House will be aware, although the Bill continues the FSA’s current responsibilities regarding these functions to the FCA, new Section 3R in Clause 5 confirms that a consumer financial education body undertakes this function on behalf of the FSA at present and it is intended in this section of the Bill that the body corporate, originally established by the FSA under Section 6A of FiSMA, will continue to deliver these services for the FCA. So the Bill assumes that the MAS will continue.
I invite the Minister to clarify the situation, because rumours have begun to circulate, following the hearings held recently by the Treasury Select Committee on the Money Advice Service. These were fairly rumbustious sessions, and for long parts of them the committee was focusing on what it clearly saw as an unsatisfactory situation regarding the FSA’s current responsibilities for the MAS, its business plans and its operations. I gather that it would not surprise many observers if the Government intended to bring forward amendments on this topic. I will not repeat the rumours that have reached me, but the stories authoritatively report a range of decisions including the abolition of the MAS, to giving it its own statutory position within the Bill. I would be happy to give way to the Minister if he would like to clarify what the position is at this point. He does not wish to do so now so I shall continue.
These amendments seek to clarify the role of the Money Advice Service in respect of its money advice services, to ensure that it focuses with laser-like intensity on the needs of members of the public on low incomes and to ensure that it provides,
“targeted, proactive and easily accessible advice to those encountering economic disadvantage, financial exclusion or financial exploitation”.
In respect of the co-ordination of debt advice, the amendments seek to make sure that this means that the MAS will be explicitly focused on promoting the work of registered charities such as the MAT, CCCS and the citizens advice bureaux, so that people struggling with debt are made much more aware of the excellent free, independent and impartial support that is available to them.
There is one point which I hope the Minister will be able to help me with when he replies. While the MAS is a direct provider of money advice, it is not the Government's intention that the MAS should become a direct provider or regulator of debt advice, in direct competition with and duplicating the work of these long-established registered charities. He will recall that in the other place, the Treasury Minister, Mr Mark Hoban, said:
“The role of MAS is to commission free debt advice, not … to provide [it].”—[Official Report, Commons, Financial Services Bill Committee, 6/3/12; col. 345.]
That having been said, there is an issue here which it would be good to recognise—about whether it is credible to view money advice and debt advice as separate activities. We in our charity certainly take the view that when people come to us with debt problems, our priority is obviously to get them to repay their debts in as short a time as is possible, without jeopardising their basic needs and livelihood; and we are not into debt forgiveness.
However, another of our functions is to use the process that they are going through to educate them about how to deal better with credit in the future. In that sense, I have sympathy with those who argue that money advice and debt advice are two sides of the same coin, if you will excuse the pun. However, that may be an issue for the future. For the moment I am anxious to ensure that the Government are not seeking to complicate the debt advice space. There is a need for co-ordination, a reduction of duplication, and for all concerned to bear down on costs, as well as increase throughput. However, there is no need for additional direct provision of services by the Government. The registered charity sector can and will deliver a brilliant service here.
Recent research by the Financial Inclusion Centre has shown that there are 6.2 million households in the UK that are financially vulnerable. Half of those are already behind with debt repayments or face insolvency action; 3 million are living so close to the edge that they do not know how they would cope if there were to be even a small increase in their regular household bills. That is why the MAS needs to focus on those members of the public who are on lower incomes, and to target advice to those encountering economic disadvantage, financial exclusion or exploitation.
Around half of our debt advice clients have struggled on their own for more than a year before seeking help and many feel ashamed of their financial problems. When people do summon up the courage to ask for help, they need advice about the best remedies for them, and we would argue that they should seek free advice. Around 400,000 people in the UK are thought to be on commercially provided debt management plans, which cost them £250 million in fees every year. We estimate that for a typical debt of £23,000, a client of a debt management company pays more than £4,000 in fees to that company. Clients of charitable providers by contrast only pay back what they owe, and the time taken to get free of their debts is about 18 months less than with a commercial provider.
That is why we suggest in this group of amendments that a key function for the Money Advice Service must be to get financially vulnerable consumers to seek help earlier from charities such as National Debtline, Citizens Advice and CCCS by promoting free debt advice. The public interest here, surely, is to encourage people with debt problems to recognise the free debt advice sector as the best place to go for rehabilitation. Raising the profile of the free debt advice sector is necessary if we are to counter the aggressive advertising of fee-charging debt management companies which seems to be everywhere. However, this is difficult for the charitable sector to do under its own steam, as its charitable funding should really be used to deliver direct charitable benefit. In December last year, the chief executive of the Money Advice Service said that he wanted to build the profile of the free debt advice sector so that ultimately, everybody in need of debt help sees the free debt advice sector as the “better option for them”. I welcome that approach and beg to move.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I want to comment on Amendment 143ZE. I have great respect for the CCCS and the work that it does, but there is also at least one commercial player—I am thinking of Payplan—which, I understand, provides free debt advice on a basis very similar to that of the CCCS, and in fact Citizens Advice frequently refers people to it to deal with debt management. Like the CCCS, it gets its funding from the creditor and not by turning to the individual who is in debt.
Although I entirely agree with all the statements that have been made about those—perhaps not all but certainly many—who advertise and often provide a very unsatisfactory and highly questionable service to individuals who are in debt, leaving them in a worse situation than when they started, I am slightly cautious about the suggestion that only the charitable sector can provide free debt advice. We need all the players we can get in this business and, provided they do it in the appropriate way, we should surely encourage all of them.
I question why the companies that seek to have the debts repaid to them should not be more influential in this process. My understanding is that they would far rather work with those who provide free debt advice than those who muddy the waters by essentially taking the fee-paying attitude and offering and delivering a less satisfactory solution for everybody involved.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to require the Secretary of State to give full consideration of how more use can be made of Post Office card accounts and to extend the services available in respect of them. The Post Office card account was launched in April 2003 as an alternative for those who could not or did not want to open a basic bank account when the direct payment of benefits was introduced. The contract for that account is extremely important to the post office network, being worth around £1 billion to post offices between 2003 and 2010.
There were, it is fair to say, some issues around the Post Office card account contract. Suffice it to say that the matter was resolved in November 2008, not least because of the intervention by my noble friend Lord Mandelson. He was able to announce then that the Post Office card account had been saved for the Post Office. On 13 November 2008, Richard Bates, head of community services at Consumer Focus, said:
“Post Office card account users will be delighted that they can continue to access their money in an environment they trust and that is within easy reach. The decision is good news for consumers and provides a bedrock for the viability of the post office network”.
He went on to say:
“Consumer Focus thinks the Post Office Limited is in a strong position to play a much more expanded role in financial services. … Today's decision is a good step in the right direction. People tell us they need the option to deposit money, pay bills and make savings in their Post Office card account. The Government must now provide and promote these services”.
It is interesting, given some of our recent debates, that there was a particular cheer at the news in Northern Ireland, where 190,000 people have their pensions and benefits paid into a Post Office card account using nearly 500 Post Office outlets.
In many ways, the Post Office card account has been a major success. Around 4.3 million people now receive benefits via such accounts, of whom approximately 40 per cent are pensioners. The account plays a central role in service provision in a whole host of areas, providing great benefit to communities across the country. Each week, 6.5 million visits are made to the post office network with a view to withdrawing funds from the Post Office card account, and it has been calculated that those under 65 who hold such an account are 28 times more likely to be “unbanked”. These same people—those in receipt of state benefits and tax credits—are also the most likely to use high-cost credit, while those without bank accounts are the least likely to hold any other financial product.
We have heard already today that the Government are looking for ways to extend appropriate, inclusive and functional services to Post Office customers. We welcome that commitment. The National Federation of Sub-Postmasters, in its Six Steps to a Sustainable Post Office Network, emphasised that:
“The Post Office card account … reminds vital for the post office network and”—
I stress these words—
“its functionality should be increased”.
That is what this amendment is about.
Post Office card account customers are some of the least well served by financial services in society. They make up 20 per cent of visits to Post Office branches each week and spend as much as £2 billion in the network each year. It should be a priority for the Government, in seeking to protect and grow the network, to find ways to develop that account. A robust Post Office card account must be an essential part of the portfolio of financial services that the Government are now proposing for the Post Office, not least because it will provide valuable bridges to financial inclusion and much needed committee support. Before the Government transfer the Post Office to a mutual, we think it sensible to require the Secretary of State to give full consideration to how more use can be made of the Post Office card accounts and to extend the services available in respect of them. I beg to move.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I shall speak briefly on my very short Amendment 23A, which I put before this House partly to have the excuse to name and shame and, perhaps more importantly, to give the Secretary of State in his annual report to Parliament the opportunity to name and shame. My decision to put forward this amendment came through a conversation with Age UK, which was careful to point out to me that in 2006, when it did its survey of older people,
“44% … used the post office to collect their pension, 43% for access to cash and 56% used it to pay their bills”.
That demonstrates what an important role the Post Office played in the financial life of older people.
Age UK welcomed the Government’s announcement, as did I, last November that their ambition is for all UK current accounts to be accessible through the post office network. Of course, the significant majority of high street banks are now going along with providing that service, but there are two major exceptions. Here is my opportunity to name them: HSBC and Santander. They do not make their standard current accounts accessible at post offices. Age UK has pointed out that older people could say, “This is very inconvenient”. Perhaps they are in deprived areas or in rural communities where there are no easily accessible bank branches. They could transfer their accounts to one of the banks that use the Post Office, but the reality is that switching accounts is complex and difficult. There are endless forms to fill out and I know from experience that it frequently goes wrong. To put that additional burden on older people is unacceptable.
We had a good discussion not long ago when in every part of this House there was real concern for the post office network, but even more for the communities to see more financial services available through the Post Office with its trusted name and accessibility and to keep people out of the hands of loan sharks. There were endless reasons, and it is important to provide the Secretary of State with the little reminder that there is a mechanism that can be used to name and shame. I hope that it will not be needed and that the banks will have fallen into line, but if they have not they ought to hear themselves declared on at least one of the Floors of Parliament.