Children and Families Bill

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am speaking to Amendment 224, to which we have added our names, and to Amendments 225, 226, 227, 228, 229 and 230, as well as to government Amendment 241. I echo the comments already made—that this is a very welcome breakthrough in the Government’s approach to young carers. I am very pleased at this unusually effective twin-track approach, with the Department of Health and the Department for Education coming together to address these issues from both aspects. That is a welcome development.

Without rehearsing all the arguments, we can all identify with the overwhelming evidence that there are an increasing number of children and young people caring for a family member, parent or sibling and that that is affecting their education, their chance to socialise and their health. We have not had the processes in place to identify these young people and give them the help they need, but I am pleased to say that we are now moving forward.

The key to this new requirement is the duty on local authorities to identify young carers. As we know, they are often hidden from view. Our amendment places parallel duties on schools, social care and health providers to play their part in finding these young people, and in putting in place co-ordinated support packages for the children and for those for whom they care. Our amendments spell these out in some detail. Amendment 225 also specifies a duty to provide sufficient resources to improve the well-being of all young carers in the area.

We have now had an opportunity to consider the government amendment to the Bill, and I appreciated the chance to attend the meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Nash, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and with representatives of young carers’ charities. As the Minister has said, there was a strong welcome for the steps that have been taken and for the Government’s recognition of the importance of this issue. We feel that the government amendments provide a useful outline framework to address the issue. We also accept that some of the detail will inevitably have to be spelled out in regulations. However, our amendments go one step further in stipulating the specific duties required of health, social care and FE institutions. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain how his amendments—which impose a much more general duty—relate to all those different aspects of the combined package that is meant to apply to young carers in future.

We have acknowledged previously that you can only go so far in driving change from the centre. There also has to be the political will at local level. Concern remains about the appetite of local government for embracing these extra duties. Their representatives were noticeably absent from the meeting we attended, though at the time we were assured that they were supportive of the changes. Would the Government look again at Amendment 225? This goes one step further than simply putting in place whole family assessments—it places a duty on local authorities to provide a range and level of service sufficient to improve the well-being of young carers. We are not just talking about the structure; we are talking about the resources as well. Without the sorts of amendments that we have put forward, there would be a concern about the level of resources made available locally. In other words, we would ensure that the resources were in place to make a real difference to these young people’s lives. Could the Minister clarify whether he agrees that there is merit in such a duty?

We also have residual concerns about the split between adult and children’s services in local government and their inability to work together in a co-ordinated fashion. These structural problems still need to be addressed going forward. How, if not in legislation, might we make some progress on these issues so that all sides of local government are talking and working together?

There is also a big training need. For example, schools and other education institutions, which often have no knowledge that their pupils are carers, need training to identify the symptoms of young carers and in the skills needed to champion their needs. As we have previously identified, teacher training has a big role to play here. Could the Minister address the issue of training, particularly at school level?

Finally, an issue came up in the Care Bill: that of parent carers. It was raised by my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley. On Report, in response to her concern the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that it was the Government’s view that the main provision for assessing and supporting those caring for disabled children should be in the children’s legislation, so that the family’s need for support could be looked at holistically—in other words, it should be in this Bill. It feels as if we are addressing everybody’s needs in this wonderful new holistic arrangement apart from the parents of disabled children. How has that read-across from what happened in the Care Bill to this Bill been followed through?

Nevertheless, we feel that the Government are on the right track and support their amendment. We accept that this is a unique opportunity to improve the lives of young carers. Obviously, we should grasp that. I very much welcome the steps taken so far but would like answers on the points I have raised with the noble Lord this afternoon. That could help to make a lot of difference to young carers, in terms of the reality of their experience on the ground.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 224, to which my name is attached. I will also make some comments about government Amendment 241.

I agree with other noble Lords who think that today is a landmark moment in what has been a very long journey for young carers to get the support that they need. More than a year ago, the Government announced new rights for adult carers. Those were extremely welcome but no equivalent provisions were put forward at the time for young carers. I pay tribute to the Government today for the very hard work they have done over the summer, across government and working with the sector, to get to this situation.

Like many other commentators at the time, I was particularly surprised a year ago at that omission, given what we know about children and young people who care for someone. They are particularly vulnerable to poor outcomes and life chances. Obviously, the reasons for that are straightforward. It was clear that for far too long young carers had not been sufficiently protected by the law. Indeed, very few young carers had received statutory assessment and support. Where they did, they often continued to undertake inappropriate levels of caring, simply because the adult that they were looking after continued to have unmet needs. The law was so confusing for young carers that it often was not even clear who had responsibility for them.

These are critical points in what we are looking at today because young carers’ well-being was directly affected by how far the adult they looked after was supported. That is why the whole family approach to assessment, which we have heard about already from the Minister, is so important. If this is to make a difference in practice, it is absolutely critical that children’s and adult services are able to work together. That sounds obvious but any of us who have been involved in the sector know that in practice it is often quite the reverse.

As my noble friend Lord Storey said at the beginning, the two Bills are scheduled at the same time. Originally when I saw that, I thought “Oh my goodness, I do not know how I will cope running between the two”. Actually, I think the opportunity provided to link the Bills is rather important. It has felt quite a complex process at times but I think we are almost there.

I have a final couple of points to make. What it really comes down to now is regulations. In addition, the Government have made it absolutely clear in various briefing sessions that the Care Bill provides a whole family approach to assessment, and this will need to be set out in the regulations. I would very much welcome any further assurances the Minister can give today that all those loose ends will be tied up so that the jigsaw is absolutely complete. One of the reasons that I attached my name to Amendment 224, before the government amendment was tabled, was to make it clear that adults’ support needs should be met in order to protect children. I would particularly welcome assurances that the Government intend to look at how regulations relating to the Care Bill will make this crystal clear. I, too, commend all the collaborative work that has taken place. I pay particular tribute to the expert advice and real-life experience that the National Young Carers Coalition has fed in.

The only remaining point I would like to highlight concerns the respective roles and responsibilities of other agencies, particularly health and education agencies but social care as well, in identifying young carers and knowing how they can best be supported. That is also something I would like to see picked up in the guidance. These amendments, particularly the government amendment, together with the provision in the Care Bill, provide an excellent opportunity to set new standards for identifying young carers and approaches to supporting the whole family. Regulations and good practice guidance on these new standards would be a very good place in which to take the provision forward.

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My amendment would encourage action on what schools provide for our children. I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 232(Rev) and 233 as this might help with the subsequent debate.

I warmly endorse the contribution of my noble friend Lady Massey and the amendment in her name. She always speaks with enormous weight and confidence on these issues. The amendments in my name are slightly more specific and both propose new clauses relating to the provision of sex and relationship education in schools.

Amendment 232(Rev) is a detailed amendment which would place PSHE in the national curriculum at all four key stages, covering primary and secondary schools. It aims to broaden and update the curriculum to ensure that, in an age-appropriate way, sex education emphasises the importance of loving relationships. It is vital that this subject is taught by those skilled to deal with complex emotional and developmental issues, who might not therefore be based in science departments.

Because young people need to better understand the physical and emotional journey to maturity, they have the right to information about same-sex relationships, the danger of sexual and domestic violence and a much clearer understanding of body awareness and sexual consent. They also need help in resisting the pressures to achieve a size-zero body shape, while understanding the dangers of obesity.

These are all complex issues which require specialist teachers if they are to be handled successfully. The amendment would require the content to be put out to consultation, to ensure that it was age-appropriate for children at different stages—in the way described by my noble friend Lady Massey—and would give parents the right to opt their child out of sex and relationship education up to the age of 15. It would also apply to all schools.

Amendment 233 concerns the need to update the statutory sex and relationship guidance issued by the department to schools. It would require the Secretary of State to convene a round table of experts to update the guidance, which was last updated in 2000 and which contains no reference to the impact on the lives of young people of mobile technology, the internet or online bullying. This update is, therefore, long overdue. We have all been appalled by the recent cases of child grooming, which have highlighted the urgency with which government authorities and agencies need to act to prevent abuse of children and young people. In recent court cases, it became clear that the young girls concerned had no idea what they were getting into or how easily they could be exploited. Meanwhile, research by the Children’s Commissioner has found that too many young people do not know what a healthy relationship looks like any more and do not even know what consent means. In the absence of effective education, they are, literally, modelling themselves on internet images instead.

There is a growing body of support demanding that this issue be addressed. Organisations such as the Girl Guides, Mumsnet, the National Association of Head Teachers and the Mothers’ Union are calling for the guidance to be updated. Even the Telegraph newspaper is running an excellent Wonder Women campaign, calling for sex and relationship guidance to be updated. It cites some shocking statistics; one-fifth of boys between the ages of 16 and 20 told the University of East London that they were

“dependent on porn as a stimulant for real sex”.

In the University of East London survey, 66% of girls between the ages of 12 and 16 say that pornographic images and content are their main source of sexual knowledge; they say they find that information from Facebook. A study by the NSPCC found that almost a third of school pupils believe that online pornography dictates how young people in a relationship should behave towards each other. A study of 601 pupils, aged 11 to 18, revealed that girls feel that they have to act like porn stars in order to be liked by boys. How sad it is that we have come to this. For those of us who think that sex education should be the parents’ responsibility, their survey also showed that young people are three times more likely to go online to find out about sex and relationships than they are to ask their parents. The result of our inaction is that teenagers are being influenced by violent, pornographic images, leading to increasing violence in their relationships.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, whose Private Member’s Bill has sought to limit young people’s access to adult pornography and I support that piece of legislation. However, we need to approach this whole issue from a number of different directions, and education has a key role to play. We argue that our country is breaching its commitment to Article 19 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which requires us to take all,

“social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse”.

The Welsh Government have already updated their sex and relationship education, building on Article 19, and addressing the rights of the child to have the necessary information to make informed personal choices. So, at a national and international level, the pressure is on us to act.

Both Nick Clegg and David Cameron have backed the Telegraph campaign. In September, the Prime Minister vowed to update sex and relationship education, to bring it into the 21st century, and to ensure that teachers were equipped to talk about the dangers of the internet. We also have support from the Cross Benchers, from the Bishops and from the Lib Dems—although we have yet to hear from them—so I hope that this will be a cross-party issue.

Unfortunately, Michael Gove remains opposed to updating the guidance, and seems to be blocking it. In a recent interview, he said that he thought sex education ought to be timeless. The Minister also appears to be taking this line. On Wednesday 30 October, when asked about this by my noble friend Lady Hughes, he said:

“Technology is moving very fast, and we do not think that constant changes to the regulations and top-down diktats are the way to deal with this”.—[Official Report, 30/10/13; col. 1580].

Regrettably, this does not match the reality of 21st-century life. Yes, the recent pace of technological and social change has been huge, but it has also had an enormous impact on children’s personal and sexual development. We have to keep pace with these developments, in order to provide proper support for these young people.

We have to acknowledge that young people are being hurt and traumatised by trying to form relationships in a new world that they do not really understand. We cannot remove all these pressures and expectations, but we can give them better tools and insight to help them develop mutual respect and loving relationships. This is what an update of the guidance can deliver, and I hope that noble Lords will support this really important amendment.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Can I come back briefly on that? The noble Earl has underlined the point we were making: addressing these issues requires specialist teachers with proper guidance. I agree that you cannot pigeonhole young people and say that just because you are attracted at one moment in your life to someone of the same or different sex, then you are that for life. People have complex emotional experiences and they need to find the terminology to make sense of the journey they are going on. It is all very complicated, but that is why you need really well trained teachers who can explain this. The alternative of pigeonholing in the way the noble Earl has described makes young people feel very confused. They do not have any understanding of the language to express what they are feeling, or they do not think anyone will listen to or respect them if they admit it, or they think they will be bullied. A way has to be found to put all these issues on the table so that people can feel confident about their sexuality, whichever route it will finally takes them on.

[Lord Storey]

First, I welcome the very clever amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey. Sometimes we have to remember the journey we have come on and how we have created some of these problems ourselves. We had a national curriculum with core and foundation subjects which was, if you like, the bible of schooling. At the time it was very progressive and a great deal of thought went into it. There might have been disagreements about what the subjects should be, but it laid down clearly what every pupil would be taught. It was easy for trainers to train teachers because they knew what the national curriculum was.

As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, knows, the legislation laid down clearly that every school should have a daily collective act of worship. That does not happen in schools any more, although it is still the law of the land. Ofsted, when it reports, has concerns about how schools try to get round it by having a quick prayer in the classroom or whatever. So that was covered, and inspectors came to schools knowing what they were inspecting. It was not just a very narrow definition of inspections. They would look at the whole ethos of a school, and in their reports would actually use the phrase—mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack—“feel the ethos”. They would shadow a pupil for a whole day to see their experience in the school. Then as a society we thought, “Hang on a second, we are being too prescriptive here. We need to let schools be free and decide what they want to do. Perhaps the national curriculum is a bit too much for them; perhaps the type of school is all a bit too organised and bureaucratic”.

The previous Government went down the route of academies, particularly for schools that were failing pupils. Academies had slimmed-down curriculums where they did not have to teach the national curriculum so they did not have to do some things which they did not think important, whether that was PSHE or sex and relationship education or whatever. We have built on that tradition and, as political parties have coalesced round it, we have said that we want a slimmed-down curriculum. There is a lot of merit in that because in the past more of society’s concerns have been pushed on to schools, which could not cope. We now have a slimmed-down curriculum so that schools can breathe and build on their strengths. Certain schools, such as free schools or academies, do not have to follow it. What is more, we will move to being more flexible on who can teach.

We have got to a situation with the national curriculum where it is not actually a national curriculum. It does not have to be taught in Scotland and Wales, in academies or free schools. It is not a curriculum for all, so I do not know why we still use that phrase. However, we are now realising that children have a right to learn and teachers have a right to teach. Pupils have a right to be respected and understood. We suddenly realise that some of the pillars of our educational establishments are in danger of being taken away or need to be developed again.

The noble Baroness, Lady Perry, was absolutely right to say that it is not just about looking at what needs to be taught, it is how you teach it and the quality of the people who teach it. I can tell noble Lords from bitter experience that there are hundreds of schools that proudly say in the school prospectus that they teach PSHE. You go in and it is a tick-box exercise; they do not teach it. The same is true of sex and relationship education. We have got to realise that. It is all very well sitting in Committee and saying, “This is what we believe in; this is what we want”. It will not change unless we change the foundations of how things happen.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, that I do not know what has gone wrong here. I had always thought that schools produce a school prospectus that sets out the aims and values of the school and states clearly what it does. I remember my vision and the phrase we used. We said that we wanted to, “Ignite the imagination of pupils”. We listed everything we did in the school, and why we have lost that, I do not know. Parents should be able to look through a school prospectus and see exactly what the school is doing and how it is done.

This debate is absolutely fascinating and I will make just one other point. When I first started teaching we had sex education. We followed the BBC “Merry-Go-Round” radio and television programmes and we starting teaching it at the age of seven. If you leave it until children are aged 11 and 12, it becomes a bit of a joke. They get embarrassed and giggle, but if you do it when they are six and seven, it becomes a natural progression. I hope that we realise in our deliberations, and in how we build on this debate, that other fundamentals have to be put in place as well.

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[Lord Nash]

We have great concerns about the quality of teacher training in this country, which is one of the reasons why, frankly, we do not think qualified teacher status is essential. If teachers were trained for many years, like doctors, vets or lawyers, it might be different, but they are not. In ITT colleges, somewhere between one-half and two-thirds of training is in schools. We are expanding in-school training and have substantially beefed up, for instance, behaviour management training. I will look at this and write to the noble Baroness, as well as talk to Charlie Taylor about what more we can do in this regard.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I just want to correct what I believe to be a misunderstanding about what Amendment 232(Rev) says. The noble Lord talked about teaching children at the age of five. I must draw his attention to the proposed new Section 85B(4)(b), which talks about teaching that is,

“appropriate to the ages of the pupils concerned”.

Of course, that needs to absolutely underlined. We are fully aware of the need to teach age-appropriately. What is right for an 11 year-old is clearly not always appropriate for a five year-old.

I know my noble friend Lady Massey will want to address much of what the noble Lord said so I will just say that I am very disappointed by the tone he took. I feel he is swimming against the tide here. There is a growing consensus on the need to update the guidance. It is a fairly simple act. Just referring everyone to a whole lot of different websites and so on is missing the point about the Government’s responsibility here. However, I am sure my noble friend will address that more coherently.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising the point about the training of teachers. During our earlier debates on child development, the Minister said something that I certainly found quite comforting, about there being, in the standards for teacher training, a requirement that teachers have a good understanding of child development, which will be helpful in this area as well.

I listened with great interest to what the Minister said about his personal experience in this area and about why he thinks that it is unhelpful to be so prescriptive about what teachers do. Although that does not instantly change my point of view, I have sympathy for his position. I think of the situation, for instance, in Finland, where they have a very loose national curriculum. The Minister for Education there has described his teachers as “researchers” who develop their own kind of education base. However, in Finland, of course, teaching has been of very high status for many years. They have competition to teach and to get on to teacher training courses—it is a different culture. I suppose the question might be where we are today in this country with moving towards raising the status of teaching. We have only started that in the past few years. The question is one of getting the balance right between prescription and freedom, and empowering teachers to do the best they can with all their capacities.

I welcome what the Minister said, particularly with regard to mentoring and the recognition that so many boys are growing up without fathers in the family, which was a theme of the debate on Friday on the age of criminal responsibility. One of the very encouraging parts of the Minister’s response then was that the Home Office is putting so much energy and investment into mentoring for these young people. Two-thirds of young black men in the United States are growing up without a father in the home. The proportion of lone-parent families in this country is even higher than in the United States and about twice the level, I think, in Germany and Denmark. We have a real issue that we need to address. I often wonder, when thinking about this topic, whether there might be a more strategic push on mentoring: a sort of big society approach, with something like a national service commitment, to think about how we could mentor young men who do not have fathers in their families. I was encouraged by what the Minister said in that regard.