HS2 Ltd: Costs

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 25th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I thought this was good journalism from the Sunday Times, but what do I know? It offered a helpful list of what that £100 billion could have been spent on, including 270,000 nurses, 1 million council homes, 200 hospitals or 10,000 schools. Have this Government looted the public purse for so long—13 years—that they do not understand how important it is to keep track of this sort of alleged corruption?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be unsurprised to hear that I do not agree. I do not normally comment on media articles, but this was a collection of old allegations which, as I said previously, the National Audit Office has established were unfounded. I also said that HS2 Ltd is looking at the allegation that has not yet been investigated, so I cannot comment on it. However, the noble Baroness is right that some good things have come out of the cancellation of HS2, such as the billions of pounds that we have been able to invest in the rest of the transport network in the north and the Midlands.

Low Traffic Neighbourhoods

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware of any research in that area but I will take that question back to the department and write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I have enjoyed the Minister’s answers, batting away some of the silly questions she has had from her own side. I just wonder whether the explanation for shops shutting is not that people are working from home now but simply the cost of living; and perhaps people are not travelling as far and are shopping locally.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Baroness that there are no silly questions in your Lordships’ House. As I mentioned earlier, many of these schemes are put in place to enable local economic growth. I cannot conceive of my local town centre still having cars in it: it is a hugely thriving town centre because it is pedestrianised. However, what is really important is that local councils need to get it right. If they do not get it right, they need to listen to local communities and remove any interventions.

Avanti West Coast Contract Renewal

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I suggest that we convene a meeting with the Rail Minister—I am not the Rail Minister—which may be a better idea than shouting at an adjudicator. Perhaps noble Lords could join me in that meeting. We can discuss Avanti and TPE, and we might be able to touch on reform and how we are going to take the railways forward. I am very happy to sort that out; perhaps a bit of face-to-face discussion with the Minister would be appreciated.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Can the Minister guarantee that this is the last rail franchise extension for Avanti? That would be good to know. Also, will all the legislation for Great British Railways come through before the end of this Parliament?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot give a guarantee on the first question, because Avanti is on probation, as I said. Let us be clear: there is a recovery plan, which has been reviewed by the ORR and Network Rail’s programme management office. It could be that that recovery plan comes into place and, in a few months’ time, everybody is content with the performance, so I shall say no more than that. On the legislation for Great British Railways, we are working as hard as we can to find parliamentary time for it, and in the meantime are doing everything that does not need legislation—important elements that will take us towards a modern, seven-day railway.

Electric Vehicles: Supporting Access

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 6th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Energy security is a priority for Her Majesty’s Government. Great Britain already has highly diverse and flexible sources of gas supply and a diverse electricity mix.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, car clubs often use electric vehicles and offer the benefits of clearing our roads, fewer miles and cleaner air. Have the Government done anything to benefit car clubs since 2014, when the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, announced £500,000 for them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are hugely supportive of car clubs. To be honest, they benefit from various government measures. For example, people using car clubs can use the chargers, the rollout of which the Government are supporting across the country. We do not have any specific proposals for financial support for car clubs, but we welcome them and think they have a core part to play in future.

Draft Revision of the Highway Code

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Thursday 27th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I thank every noble Lord who has taken part in this debate, and I particularly commend the Minister. It is such a pleasure to agree with a government Minister and to hear her spirited defence of old and new regulations.

There are a lot of issues here and, of course, I disagree with quite a lot of what has been said. We always have to remember that car drivers are subsidised by the rest of us. They are subsidised by cyclists, pedestrians and, obviously, other car drivers. Please let us not think that car drivers have the right to do whatever they like on our roads.

There are too many issues to cover, but on the issue of cyclists killing other people and so on, that hardly ever happens. In fact, 99% of pedestrian deaths are from motor vehicles. Please let us not forget that. I was going to refer to what the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, said, but the Minister corrected that. Cycle lanes are often dangerous, and the infrastructure has to be looked at.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about the budget. That is quite important, because I think there is £500,000 at the moment, which will be nowhere near enough. I recommend that if government Ministers could get that out there and notify people on prime TV time—talking about this instead of cake—that would obviously help to spread the word.

The Government have been very slow to produce a draft of these changes. In fact, they were told back in July 2018 that there was a need for a public awareness campaign, yet the relevant people looking at it were given the details only a week ago.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for his positive and sympathetic response. As somebody who does not cycle any more, because I walk, I am well aware of the dangers of cycling in London and other places, including rural areas, and I commend the Minister for saying that we should show some patience and courtesy. It is perhaps time that we all learned that. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Electric Vehicle Charge Points

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That, of course, is a very serious consideration: we need to make sure that companies do not just stick up a charge point and then leave it there unmaintained and, therefore, unreliable. We will be considering all options as we respond to the consultation.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The Minister has mentioned on-street parking and not on-pavement parking. Is any advice given to councils, because an awful lot of them put the chargers on pavements, which obviously makes life harder for pedestrians?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point. I do not know what guidance exists on the siting of EV chargers. I shall take that back to the department and write to the noble Baroness.

Global Traffic Scorecard: London

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 5th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have, of course, been extraordinarily generous to the rail system. Over the course of Covid, we have been able to keep services running to make sure that people can get from A to B as and when they have needed to. We are now entering a new phase for rail, where we will be looking at introducing the structures around Great British Railways in order to benefit passengers—it is all about putting passengers first. As the noble Lord knows, on buses, we will be allocating £1.2 billion of transformation funding. We hope to do that fairly soon. We would like that to focus on bus priority to speed up services, so that we can break the cycle of decline.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, on that issue of generosity, obviously, getting cars off the road would be the quickest way to decongest our roads nationally. But in London, bus passengers, through TfL, actually pay for all the road repairs, and therefore they subsidise motorists. Does that seem right?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure I understand the noble Baroness’s point. The point that I am able to respond to is about getting cars off the road. This Government do not want to take cars off the road: the whole point is that we need to provide the right type of journey for the right passenger. For some people, that will mean using private cars, and for others it will mean using buses. It also means decarbonising the private vehicles that we currently have.

Isles of Scilly: Ships

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I certainly hope that both those things will be true. As the noble Lord will know, there is at the moment a very ageing vessel that chugs back and forth. It is very dirty, it keeps breaking down, the cost of maintenance is very high and it has to be taken out of service for maintenance to take place. It is also the case that, to fund that maintenance, passenger fares go up and demand therefore goes down. There is so much about this bid that is very attractive. We would hope that, out of all of this, we will see better services to the Isles of Scilly.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Will there be a requirement in the contract to eliminate the use of fossil fuels?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot comment on the detail of the contract; indeed, I am not entirely sure to which contract the noble Baroness is referring. We will be looking in the business case at the environmental credentials of the bid. These are very decarbonised vessels, and this is a huge step forward for maritime in the area. As I have said, however, the development of the OBC and the FBC will take a couple of years, so there will be many opportunities to discuss this further in the future.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, the Government were really clear in the transport decarbonisation plan what the long-term future looks like for various modes of transport. We recognise in that plan that the cost of motoring has fallen at the same time, for example, as the cost of fares have gone up by 20% and even more than that for bus and coach journeys. But, of course, gradually and over time we will make trains and buses better value and more competitively priced. This will impact on the modal shift and take people away from flying or using their car and get them on to trains and buses. As she is well aware, there have been a number of competitions recently where people have taken a train and a plane at the same time and arrived at their destination at the same time.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am sorry; I do not think that the question has been answered. When are the Government going to start making public transport cheaper and, for example, domestic flights more expensive? The Minister cannot just say it is going to happen some time in the future; we have a climate emergency to worry about.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are subsidising train fares by a vast amount at the moment. Obviously we want them to be as low as possible, but the amount of subsidy needs to be fair to the taxpayer. The Government have asked for bus service improvement plans from all local transport authorities in the country, and we will look at their fare proposals and make sure that we can support those who offer the best value for money.

Insulate Britain

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, as of March last year the cost of road congestion in the UK was £7 billion, estimated at £784 per driver. Clearly, the Government are irresponsible to let that congestion go ahead and really ought to have a plan to reduce it that does not involve building more roads, which actually will attract more traffic. Would the Minister like to say something about that? Plus—Insulate Britain is right. Its tactics might be colossally difficult for us to cope with, but it is right that the Government should be insulating the leakiest council housing homes in Britain, rather than allowing those people to spend cold winters, be ill and emit endless CO₂ emissions.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, I am just relieved that the noble Baroness did not stand up and agree with her fellow eco-warriors. As I have previously set out, this Government have a very strong record on tackling climate change. I point the noble Baroness to the transport decarbonisation plan, published by the Department for Transport, which clearly sets out exactly how we intend to decarbonise our transport system.

Transport Decarbonisation

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think I have gone as far as I can on charging. We recognise that it is one of the greatest challenges facing the take-up of electric vehicles. My colleague the Minister for the Future of Transport is working diligently on making sure that we have the right plan in place for the £1.3 billion we will be investing in it over the next four years. That will be set out in the electric vehicle infrastructure strategy.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, one option for reducing CO₂ emissions, of course, is to travel less. The Government could make it easy for people not to travel—that is, go into the office—if they do not want to, by making sure they have a high-quality internet connection. Is that something the Government are stressing at the moment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is quite right: we want people to travel the right amount, whatever that may be. The Government certainly have very ambitious plans when it comes to broadband connectivity. We want to roll it out to as many places as possible so that people can work from home if it is right for them and their employer.

Historical Railways Estate

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am really happy to reassure the noble Lord that Highways England already does exactly what he asked me to make sure that it does. It consults with local authorities, parish councils, people who run active travel schemes and, of course, heritage railway providers, whether or not the railway is actually built. Of the 3,250 railway properties, some will require work that is in excess of maintenance: that might include infilling, but of course infilling can be reversed.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Historical Railways Estate seems to be the perfect body to take forward the Government’s stated policy to reverse the Beeching cuts and promote active travel. However, it does not have a budget from Highways England for changes to the system in terms of active travel. Does it have a budget for reversing the Beeching cuts?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am afraid I am not aware of the body the noble Baroness has just referenced. There are all sorts of budgets around. Obviously there is £500 million in the Restoring Your Railway fund and up to £2 billion in terms of cycling and walking. It is important to understand that, where particular railway properties fall into either of these schemes, their ownership can be transferred to the scheme’s promoters and therefore they can be maintained in future.

Great British Railway Plans

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There is a place for Scotland in Great Britain. The Scottish Government will continue to exercise their current powers and to be democratically accountable for them. Great British Railways will continue to own the infrastructure in Scotland, as Network Rail does now. The Government will of course explore options with Transport Scotland to enable the railway in Scotland to benefit from the reforms on the wider network of Great Britain.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

If HS2 is to be managed separately, can the Government guarantee that any of its cost overruns, whether in construction or operation, will not see a bailout from wider rail network funds and that it will be responsible for its own overruns?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness has just answered her own question: she stated that HS2 would be separate from Great British Railways. That is the case but in any event, as she pointed out, HS2 is under construction. It will be a while before it is an operating railway and then it will work closely with GBR.

Railway Industry Association Report

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that it is our aim to deliver a net-zero carbon railway. East West Rail is a very important part of the development of the Ox-Cam Arc, which will support housing and jobs. Any decision to grant development consent for the project will need to demonstrate that it would not have a material impact on the ability of the Government to meet their carbon reduction targets. However, EWR Co, the company responsible for it, continues to examine decarbonisation options, including full electrification along the whole route, as well as various options for partial electrification using battery or electric hybrid rolling stock and other sustainable rolling stock options.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

There is nothing really new in this review because, of course, electrification has always been a cleaner option and, as I never tire of saying, the Green Party has been saying this for 30 or 40 years. Why have the Government not taken this as a matter of urgency and done it much faster?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I take this opportunity to remind the House that the Green Party is against HS2, a position which I remain a little confused by. The noble Baroness is quite right that now is the opportunity to put our shoulder to the wheel and to electrify our railways as quickly as we can. That is why we will be setting out a rolling programme in the forthcoming RNEP, and why we take great heed of what was written by the Network Rail-led traction decarbonisation network strategy. That is not government policy, but there are some very important conclusions which we are looking at, and we will be putting them in the transport decarbonisation plan.

Domestic Air Travel

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the passing of a law by the National Assembly of France to prohibit domestic flights to destinations that can be reached by train in two and a half hours or less, what consideration they have given to reducing domestic air travel in the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, domestic air travel in the UK ensures regional connectivity and often assists ongoing international travel. It is also vital for supporting jobs, trade and investment and ensures that social connections can be maintained. The Government recognise the critical role that aviation plays in delivering the UK’s net-zero commitment, and we support a variety of technology, fuel and market-based measures to address aviation emissions.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It is interesting that our Government are slower to see the societal changes happening because of the pandemic than the French Government. In France, people do not want to travel as much; they have found that remote working is very effective and it has not affected the economy of most big businesses. Will the Government, after all their fine promises today, stop airport expansion and create some policies which will enable jobs to be green instead of planet-destroying?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness has deviated far from the Question at hand. Of course the Government are very focused on a green, sustainable recovery. As she will have noted in media reports today, the Government will announce further details on carbon emissions later this week.

Rail Freight: Channel Tunnel

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have just explained to the noble Lord, this is a commercial decision by the freight operating companies. The Government certainly stand by to support where we can. For example, we are developing and, indeed, have developed, bespoke customs regimes for rail freight traffic through the tunnel. We have already approved regimes at Barking, Dagenham, Daventry, Scunthorpe and Widnes. We are also looking at, for example, gauge clearance for alternative access routes to the Channel Tunnel. At the heart of all this, the industry has to demonstrate to government that if we put these interventions in place it will come forward with commercial proposals.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I take the Minister’s point that it is a commercial decision, but the Government could help hauliers and exporters of all kinds. What about setting up an innovations fund that they could bid for money from when they have a viable plan? This would stimulate the move from road to rail.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness is referring to our Mode Shift Revenue Support scheme, which is indeed already in place. It supports rail services where they may be slightly less commercial, to try to get freight off the road and on to rail. During the Covid pandemic we made sure that part loads would also be supported. The noble Baroness will also be pleased to hear that we have increased funding to this scheme by 28% in 2021 and it now amounts to £20 million.

HS2: Phase 2B

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 8th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government will not be scrapping HS2.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, why did the Government press ahead with London to Birmingham and allow costs to rise so that the much more useful eastern leg looks as though it will now become unaffordable?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

A couple of things are conflated in that question. Regarding the pressing ahead, the London to Birmingham section was far more developed than any other section, and therefore it could be taken forward more quickly. Regarding allowing costs to rise, the Government have a laser-like focus on the cost of HS2. I am sure that my honourable friend in the other place, Minister Stephenson, will continue to ensure that they are as low as possible.

Railways: Electrification

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This Government have invested £235 million in the strategic freight network in the five years from 2014. We appreciate that the intermodal connectivity hubs are incredibly important. The largest amount of rail freight—39%—goes to these intermodal hubs, so we welcome the development of strategic rail freight interchanges. They are incredibly useful, combining warehousing and connectivity for rail and road.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, moving road freight on to rail is an interesting idea, because that would reduce the amount of diesel used. The port of Dover already has links with HS1, so have the Government investigated the option of moving road freight on to the HS1 line?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware of whether we have investigated the HS1 line specifically, but the Government do support modal shift for freight. For 2021, we increased the modal shift revenue support scheme, which aims to shift road freight on to rail and water, by 28% to £20 million. This has removed 900,000 HGV journeys from the roads.

Heathrow Airport Expansion

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Thursday 17th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is right that aviation will play a key part in the recovery and subsequent growth, as part of global Britain. There are a number of airports that have capacity at the moment and would welcome more flights. They may be able to in the future.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

When boasting about their reduction in carbon emissions, the Government have never included aviation or shipping emissions. But the recent report of the Committee on Climate Change said that aviation should be included in the planned reduction of our 2030 carbon budget and that steps must be taken to limit aviation growth, so that expansion is dependent on a reduction of emissions. Will the Government accept that advice?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, recording carbon emissions is challenging, because they cannot all be attributed to a single country. There is a global agreement on the way in which they are usually reported. The noble Baroness also knows that there is headroom in our carbon budgets that is informally allocated to aviation.

National Bus Strategy

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. Passengers in London—the over 60s et cetera—do get more benefits than those in the rest of the country. The freedom passes that are provided in London are designed to encourage people, who are perhaps retired, not to use the peak. If my noble friend has people who are being paid to act as carers who need to use buses early in the morning, then I believe they should pay for their journeys. Having said that, bus fares in London are also low, compared to other places in the country.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I was delighted to hear the Minister mention road space allocation, which is part of reducing congestion. However, we know that it is private cars that create the most congestion, even on rural roads. Have the Government got any other ideas to reduce private car traffic and encourage more people on to buses?

High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there are two amendments in this group, the first in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, to which I cannot agree, and the second in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, which, if she chooses to move it, I will be pleased to be able to support. Turning to the first amendment, this might at first glance appear to be very similar to the second amendment—indeed, some noble Lords have referred to it as being “soft” or “gentle”. I would like to reassure noble Lords that Amendment 13 is not in any way less good. From my perspective, I would like to highlight the important differences, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. In putting my perspective on them, I hope that noble Lords will agree—and I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, in particular will agree—that their fears are unfounded, and that Amendment 13 is certainly a very good amendment indeed.

First, Amendment 10 calls for the frequency of reporting to be every six months, whereas Amendment 13 proposes that it be annually. I will explain a bit later why that is appropriate. Secondly, the amendment restricts the reporting required to only those works authorised in this Bill—phase 2a—where we believe, and I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, believes as well, that all HS2 phases could be and should be included in this report.

Thirdly, in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, the report required is narrowed by the definitions of direct and indirect impacts. Again, I will go on to explain how that will be covered in the report that we propose, because we believe that we can go broader than that. Finally, there is a difference with regard to the requirement for a mini-consultation associated with each report.

I do not believe that these differences augment the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb; rather, they restrict it and place limitations on the value that more reporting on the impacts on ancient woodland could bring. On this basis, and given the knowledge that I am able to support Amendment 13, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, will withdraw her amendment.

Turning to Amendment 13, one of the aims of the HS2 project is always to try to reduce its impact on ancient woodland. As has been said before, some impact is inevitable. The environmental statement gives an assessment of the reasonable worst-case scenario. Although impacts on ancient woodland cannot be fully compensated, losses will be addressed through a range of measures, as I have outlined previously.

Through extensive engagement on phase 2a, HS2 Ltd has already found ways to protect some veteran trees which were previously expected to be lost. Furthermore, through the redesign of embankments in the Whitmore Wood area, HS2 Ltd has been able to commit to some reduction in impact on the ancient woodland there. Wherever possible, the Government will continue to push HS2 Ltd to go further on this matter.

I am so grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, for her engagement on this matter; she brings vast knowledge and experience. I recognise that her amendment may not go quite as far as she would ideally have liked, but I hope she will agree that the outcome is a significant step forward. Her amendment places a requirement on HS2 Ltd to publish reports annually on the impacts on ancient woodland across the whole of HS2, not only phase 2a. This has the benefit of committing to reporting on phase 1 of the project as well as phase 2a, and, of course, on future phases. The annual nature of reporting fits well within the life cycle of trees, as the works undertaken follow the seasonal pattern of trees, as required by other legislation. But just because the reporting is annual, it does not mean that the monitoring is annual, or that lessons learned are put in place on an annual cycle—it can be more frequent than that.

Furthermore, by not defining the term “impacts”, HS2 Ltd will report on a wide range of issues relating to ancient woodlands, including those that could potentially be caused by non-compliance with the code of construction practice. The reporting will include measures undertaken relating to breaches of assurances for ancient woodland and lessons learned, should they occur—and, of course, we all hope that they do not.

The phase 2a draft code of construction practice sets out the management measures that HS2 Ltd will be required to follow during construction of the scheme. This includes measures designed to control and prevent the impacts on which noble Lords have raised specific concerns, including the protection of habitats such as ancient woodland, and the control of dust, water quality, noise, vibration and lighting. I believe that these are the sorts of indirect impacts sought by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb.

But, of course, there is more. There are also specific measures designed to minimise adverse ecological effects, including: developing a programme of ecological surveys to be undertaken prior to and during construction, including on bats; the relocation and translocation of species, soil and plants; the reinstatement of any areas of temporary habitat loss; restoration and replacement planting, for example of trees, hedgerows, shrubs and grassland; and using by-products of construction to enhance mitigation provisions, for example using felled trees to provide dead-wood habitats. There is also a requirement to consult with Natural England, the Environment Agency, local wildlife trusts and with relevant planning authorities prior to and during construction.

By committing HS2 Ltd to report on non-compliance with the measures set out in the code of construction practice, we are ensuring that all these impacts are captured and are not limited to the narrower definition of impacts in the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. Further, the reporting will include the variance between what ancient woodland the environmental statement has assessed will be lost or impacted by HS2 and what actually occurs. The environmental statement is a reasonable worst-case scenario; in effect, it is an educated estimate of the impact. I hope very much that reporting on the actual outcome in comparison to the baseline in the environmental statement will have a positive impact on helping future programmes and projects improve their assessments for their own environmental statements and reporting.

I will go further. I am pleased to commit HS2 Ltd to reporting on the volume of metres cubed of ancient woodland soils that have been translocated, and to reporting on the number of hectares of ancient woodland compensation and restoration that have been included in the detailed design of the scheme. I am also pleased to commit the company to reporting on the number of hectares of ancient woodland creation and restoration delivered through all HS2 funds that deliver woodland creation. The intention is to publish the ancient woodland impact reports in the annual environmental report. Ancient woodland mitigation and impacts are discussed in the ecology review group.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, tried her luck in seeing whether we could go further on wetlands and meadows. Of course we recognise the importance of those environments so, if she is in agreement, I will write to her on the steps being taken to make sure that those impacts are also minimised.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, for Amendment 13, and for taking me on a journey. I am not quite at the same point as she is on it, but I am not quite where I used to be. I hope that she will move her amendment when the time comes, and it will give me great pleasure to support it.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, which has been quite interesting for me as well. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, that I am absolutely thrilled to be left holding the baby. It is a beautiful baby and I am honoured to do so.

I found the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Haselhurst, to be appalling. I was quite staggered to hear him say things like we must not be held prisoners of the past. Images came to mind of students pulling down statues of slave owners and I wonder if he supports those as well. It is absolutely fantastic if he does. He made comments about how the railway must be straight. It does if trains are going at 250 miles an hour, which is the planned speed for it. Of course, the railway will not do that at first—it will be 225 mph or something—but is still exponentially far less environmentally friendly at that sort of speed. Yes, it has to be a straight railway line because it cannot go around corners, which means that the line will go through a lot of extremely valuable land.

Both the noble Lord, Lord Haselhurst, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about replacement trees. I congratulate them on wanting replacement trees, but there is also the fact that in the drought of summer 2018, tens of thousands of trees that HS2 Ltd had planted died. It said that it was cheaper to replace them than to water then, which means that 89,000 trees died and were replaced with, again, small trees. What is needed as a replacement is large trees; if you have to keep replacing them, you will keep on getting small trees. I would argue that HS2 is not entirely reliable about planting its trees.

As usual, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, was extremely kind to me, apart from the comment about my short fuse, which is sadly true. I am glad that he likes Amendment 10, which is a credit from him and I thank him for it. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, on planting hardwoods instead of pines. I am not sure that I liked his description of Amendment 10 as “well intentioned and harmless”. I would like to think it is tough and radical. I also congratulate him on pronouncing my name correctly, which many Peers do not.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about the rich ecosystem that exists in ancient woods. That is the whole point: it is difficult, if not impossible, to replicate that when such biospheres are very precious. This is not just about preserving the past; it is about making sure that our whole environment stays healthy. Sometimes we do not know, until we have lost them, what the precious things we have do overall. I am also glad that she talked about wetlands and meadows, which of course are just as important. Had there been amendments concerning them, I would have supported them fully.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, congratulated the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on her incredibly important work on this. I thank the Minister. It was good that she talked about direct and indirect impacts. That was valuable, but I am not clear how the lessons learned will be dealt with by the Government and am not sure if the Minister is able to let us know. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 10.

Railways: Fare Structures

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure I have been called “uncharacteristically coy” before. However, the noble Lord is absolutely right: we are in a situation at the moment where people’s habits may change, which means they may form the habit of not using public transport. This is the same for trains, light rail and buses, across our public transport system. Of course, the Government are thinking very clearly and hard about the sorts of mechanisms that we can use, whether that be marketing campaigns or incentives, as I outlined to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. We will consider all of these things. However, now is not the right time for that; now is the time to follow the November restrictions to make sure that we keep the virus under control.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

This is an area where I can help the Government. At the moment, rail fares have been going up, year on year, often above normal increases, but at the same time, since 2011, people driving have paid less and less. So the cost of driving on our roads falls because there is no more fuel duty, yet the cost of rail travel keeps rising. One way to make the railways competitive with driving again would be to reinstate fuel duty at a realistic level.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her advice; I am sure the Treasury is listening. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, earlier, we are considering plans for rail fares in the future, but we are working very hard on how to modernise our ticketing offer such that rail travel is as affordable as we can possibly make it.

Rural Bus Services

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I mentioned, the Government are working extremely hard on the national bus strategy. The sort of proposals that the noble Baroness outlined are the sort of things that we are looking at. It is very much time for local accountability for local bus services, taking into account the needs of the local community.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, it is good to hear that the Government are doing some planning on the issue of rural bus services, but it is not enough to keep pushing responsibility back to local councils when they simply do not have enough money to take forward anything like the amount of services necessary. In view of the fact that we need a national strategy to reduce all our carbon emissions, encourage people out of their cars and generally become better functioning members globally on the issue of climate change, surely the Government can see that funding councils so that they can do their job properly is the right way forward.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It was a little hard to hear the noble Baroness’s question but I believe it was about funding local councils. These considerations are of course being had as we think about the national bus strategy. However, I say to the noble Baroness that it is not just about money; it is also about skills and capacity. We need local authorities to boost their local transport teams so that they have the skills and capacity to plan the sort of improvements that we need in bus services.

Covid-19: Transport for London

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that negotiations between the Government and the Mayor of London—indeed, all mayors—should be based on mutual respect and professionalism. I am pleased to report that, for example, our conversations with the mayor and his team yesterday were very cordial and constructive. The details of the current settlement are still under discussion and we are making good progress. I am pleased to confirm that the Government are committed to the principle that any government funding must be fair to UK taxpayers.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, it is obvious that TfL needs some immediate investment, along the lines of the sort that the Government have given to the train operating companies, but also needs time to work out some long-term resilience. An 18-month deal is probably best for it. One way of financing it would be to put in smart road pricing. This idea has been around for decades, but have the Government thought about it or even worked up an idea for it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness will know that transport in London is devolved to the Mayor of London. Therefore, any considerations of smart road pricing would be for him to take forward.

Network Rail’s Enhancements Pipeline

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The project to which my noble friend refers will be considered as part of the integrated rail plan. That will look at the delivery of high-speed rail alongside all other rail investments in the north and the Midlands.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

The Minister mentioned the assessment that happened for HS2, but in Jones Hill Wood there is a protected species of bat; the HS2 organisation does not have a licence and is threatening to cut down the trees anyway. I am sure that the Minister is extremely worried about this breaking of the law. Did all the law-breaking that HS2 is currently doing come into the assessment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I was not aware of this particular species of bat that lives in this tree. If the noble Baroness could forward information to me, I will make sure that the HS2 Minister receives it.

Railways

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is absolutely right that fares and ticketing must be at the heart of the reforms that the Government carry out. We recognise the challenges that the Covid-19 pandemic has caused in the short term, and this could also have longer-term effects on commuter behaviours. In response to that, we proactively sought proposals from the rail industry to ensure better value and convenience, particularly, for example, for part-time workers and flexible commuters. We are considering all of the proposals that we have received, and we will make an announcement in due course.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, on 12 August this year, in Carmont, in the east of Scotland, there was a train crash. The train went into a landslip, and three people were sadly killed. Even Grant Shapps accepts that the landslide was a result of climate change. Do the Government’s plans include talking to Network Rail and the Office of Rail Regulation to put in place further measures to mitigate climate change impacts?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, Network Rail is of course extremely conscious of the changes to our climate and the impact that that might have on infrastructure. The dreadful event that happened at Stonehaven is an ongoing incident and it is being investigated by the RAIB, the ORR and the BTP. We cannot make further detailed comment or speculate at this time, but those investigations continue, and the causes of the accident will be investigated fully.

Stonehenge

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Thursday 23rd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

I hope that the noble Baroness will appreciate more good walks if and when this tunnel is actually built. As she will know, the project is currently at the outline business case. When we get to the final business case, if the DCO is approved, further information will be available at that stage about start-of-works and open-for-traffic dates.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, as an ex-archaeologist, I am absolutely horrified by this whole project. There is absolutely no way of knowing whether there are more potential finds on the current route. It is not a good idea to say that there is nothing more to find. However, as a climate campaigner, I am much more horrified by the fact that the Government are still subsidising road building. We are now in a climate crisis and the Government should be living up to some of their magnificent green claims and trying to cut road traffic. Does the Minister agree?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

The noble Baroness has asked me similar questions in the past. Of course, the Government have a huge commitment to electric vehicles. We want to see fewer petrol and diesel cars and other vehicles on our roads and we have a huge commitment to electric buses, but I say again that these vehicles need a road to travel on—they do not fly.

Covid-19: Transport

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord raises a very important point. The published guidance specifically refers to making sure that public transport remains accessible. It refers to those with protected characteristics, including, of course, disabled passengers. On specific translation of the guidance on social distancing requirements for disabled passengers, I too am interested to see how that has developed, but I have not looked into it in great detail. So, I will write to the noble Lord to give him examples of how transport operators are putting this guidance into practice.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Something that makes our roads much less safe and will deter people from walking and cycling is extreme speeding, which has been happening increasingly during lockdown. The police in London have enforced more than 5,000 instances of speeding, and some of those speeds—in areas with 20 or 30 mph limits—are incredible. This will deter people. Will the Minister undertake to speak to the traffic police and find out if there is anything the Government can do to ensure stronger enforcement of this offence?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness is right, in that there have been some really unpleasant examples of people speeding—sometimes vastly over the speed limit—and it is entirely and utterly unacceptable. However, I am pleased that the police have been continuing to do their speeding enforcement; a number of those people have been caught and have received some pretty severe fines and other penalties. Making cyclists feel safe is extremely important, and this money—the £250 million—is a very good start in ensuring that there are dedicated lanes for cyclists, such that they can be protected from cars. Even cars travelling at normal speeds can sometimes feel very fast to a cyclist. Having that enforcement is really important, as is towns and cities thinking more about the needs of the cyclist alongside those of the car driver.

Passenger Train Services

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Wednesday 29th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

If the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is referring to refunds to season tickets at the moment, we have spoken to all train operators and made sure that the process is as simple as possible. We have made sure that claims can be made remotely; we have extended the refund period—the time during which refunds can be made—from 28 days to 56 days; and we have backdated refunds for season tickets to 17 March. To date, £120 million has been paid out on season ticket refunds.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

As the Minister has sort of said, this is a once-in-two-generations opportunity to change things and actually reform the railway, so how far is the thinking going? Are the Government thinking about changing the very inefficient and illogical pricing structures? What about accommodating the amount of remote working that might continue after the crisis—plus, of course, opening local lines for residents who are asking for them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness makes a very important point, which is that there is an opportunity to look in more detail at what changes might be needed. We will have to wait until the Williams Rail Review is published and the recommendations made, but one commitment that the Government have already made is to look at so-called Beeching closures. The Restoring Your Railway Fund has £500 million pledged to it. I reassure the noble Baroness that work on that fund continues and that bids put in for the March round of funding are being assessed. Details of a second round of funding for June were published on GOV.UK recently, so work is going on apace in that area.

Airport Expansion

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for raising one of the other London airports. It is true that we are incredibly lucky in this country, in that we have a number of options when we fly from the south-east or from London. The Government are focused on connections to airports, because we want to make sure that there are as many different options as possible to get to airports, so that people do not necessarily have to use their car. Train is often the best bet.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I do not know how the Minister’s department manages the mental gymnastics to think it possible to have airport expansion and fulfil our climate change targets. Could the Minister explain that? When Heathrow Airport said it would go net zero, it did not include any of its flights—so it will be rather difficult to square that circle.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

This Government are anti-aviation emissions, not anti-flying. That is the entire point. The Government are working incredibly hard to make sure that we get emissions down by 2050. I have already mentioned the transport decarbonisation plan, but we are also spending £2 billion on aviation research and technology. I ask the noble Baroness whether, if all planes were netzero, she would still be against flying.

Transport Infrastructure

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness will be well aware that we had an extensive debate on HS2, its speed and all the various elements. These issues have been well debated and the Government agree with the spirit of Oakervee. His report discusses speed among many other things. Indeed, there were 60 conclusions in the report, and it would have been impossible for the Government to discuss every issue in it. We will respond in full in due course and that will cover the issue of speed. However, we are not minded to slow the train down. Phase 1 has been designed with speed in mind and it is not going to be redesigned. There is therefore no need to reduce the speed.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the problem was that the Statement was the least professional and most hyperbolic pile of nonsense from a government spokesperson—not the noble Baroness. It was an appalling abuse. It read like a Telegraph column, so we know who might have written some of it. There are two big problems with HS2. First, it is extremely damaging to our environment. We are losing 108 ancient woodlands, five wildlife refuges, 39 nature reserves and 33 protected sites. The project is also a huge emitter of CO₂ . Does the Minister agree that, as a result of that and the extra road extensions and plans proposed in the Statement, the Government will be unable to meet their CO₂ reduction targets?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The Minister does not agree. I take it that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is not a fan of the Prime Minister, but the sort of words she uses are somewhat inappropriate. On the substance of her question about the environment and ancient woodlands, noble Lords have had the opportunity to discuss those issues in significant detail. HS2 is committed to no net loss of biodiversity. We believe that it is an important part of achieving net zero emissions by 2050. Lost wildlife habitat will be replaced and, as I have said in your Lordships’ House, on the stretch from London to Crewe 43 ancient woodlands will be affected, but only 20% of each. That is out of a total of 52,000 ancient woodlands. I see the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, who will say, “But that is salami slicing”. That is the thinnest slice of salami, which will not make even half a breakfast.

Flybe

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. It is the case that, should Flybe at some point in future not be operating, there would be a significant impact on certain airports, and I know that Belfast is one of them. I believe there is already one PSO in operation in Belfast, but I will have to check and I will come back to the noble Lord if I am wrong on that. The Government will look at all routes. Regional connectivity is critical to us, so where we need new PSOs, we will put them in place.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

My Lords, the Minister must know that aviation is the fastest-growing source of dangerous carbon emissions. If we are to get to net-zero by 2050, we will have to cut flying in some way. At the moment, aviation is subsidised by being exempt from a tax on its fuel. Will the Government consider lifting that exemption and imposing a tax that reflects the true cost of flying?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am sure that the noble Baroness is well aware of the reason that aviation fuel has no tax on it. The International Civil Aviation Organization is absolutely critical in getting the global aviation industry to work as a whole in many areas, including counterterrorism and climate change. If we are to reduce carbon emissions, we will need the members of ICAO to work together to achieve it. Under the Chicago convention, which set up ICAO, no nation can put tax on aviation fuel.