Reciprocal and Cross-Border Healthcare (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, these regulations are quite technical in nature but relate to a very important issue for many. I am grateful to my noble friends Lady Ludford, Lord Greaves and Lord Willis of Knaresborough, and to my friend the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, for their comments, questions and common sense.

Reciprocal healthcare has been and always will be of vital importance to those who travel between and live across European nations, in particular workers and students, as has already been mentioned. It ensures that health coverage is available as individuals undertake activities that are beneficial across our societies. However, it is extremely important that individuals are informed about their healthcare rights abroad, whether they need to be supplemented with insurance and whether they are covered by direct payment or a reimbursement system.

Could the Minister confirm the arrangements on the island of Ireland? He will be aware that, at present, residents in both the Republic and Northern Ireland have been treated freely on either side of the border. I do not mean “freely” in the financial sense, but in the sense that the border does not exist: ambulances travel from north to south without let or hindrance, and treatment for a single condition can be delivered in both the north and the south. I wonder whether the Minister could clarify whether the financial arrangements will have to change or be renegotiated—and will they be ready with effect from 1 January 2021?

I sit on one of the House of Lords Select Committees that has been looking at various issues relating to the situation in Northern Ireland with effect from 1 January next year. With a lot of despair, we have found that some departments have been very slow in working with the Assembly in the north. They are feeling abandoned by departments and anxious about whether things will be ready for 1 January. Could the Minister confirm that, as far as health is concerned, all arrangements will be completely wrapped up by the time 1 January comes?

Concerns have been raised that those with existing and underlying health conditions may not be covered when they travel to the EU. Can the Minister confirm whether any reciprocal coverage will be available, for those with a learning disability in particular? It is concerning if coverage is not complete for some individuals, as it will add extra pressure to an already stretched NHS resource, as well as having an impact on these individuals. Of course, a comprehensive deal with the EU, securing reciprocal coverage just as we have at the moment, would resolve any uncertainty there is. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government are still committed to negotiating such a deal? Can he confirm that agreeing a reciprocal healthcare scheme is a priority in these negotiations, as it is in the interest of both parties?

The withdrawal agreement agreed in October 2019 and ratified in January 2020, and separate agreements with other EEA states and Switzerland, made some provisions relating to this. First, the existing arrangements continue until the end of the transition period on 31 December this year. Can the Minister clarify who will retain rights after the transition period? What conversations have the Government had with the insurance sector, which I am sure is waiting for new business with bated breath? As was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, this issue is important. I am concerned that there will be some less-than-ideal arrangements and wonder what assurance the public have that insurance offerings are reasonable and do not take advantage of the situation.

There are some provisions for health at the 23rd hour. UK and EU nationals in a cross-border situation over 31 December 2020—part-way through a holiday, maybe—can continue to use the EHIC to access needs-arising treatment, until they leave the country by travelling to another EU member state or returning to the UK.

People visiting the UK or EU for planned medical treatment under the S2 route can commence or complete their treatment if authorisation was requested on or before 31 December. If a UK national has paid social security contributions in a member state in the past but is not living in the EU on 31 December 2020, the rights that flow from those contributions, such as benefits, pensions and reciprocal healthcare rights, will be protected. This means that someone who has previously worked in an EU EFTA member state can apply for a UK S1 as well as EHIC S2 once they reach state pension age, on the same terms as now. So, we have a clearer picture of what the future arrangements of the EU on healthcare will be.

Many noble Lords have outlined how they have used their EHICs. My noble friend Lord Greaves has clearly had far more exciting experiences than I have in the Alps. I have managed to spend the last 50 years travelling happily around the EU without any problems at all and my EHIC has stayed happily in my wallet. These Benches regret that we are in this position, but we have to put our trust in the Government to arrange as good a reciprocal deal or series of bilateral arrangements as soon as possible. Will this be sorted by the end of the transition period? Can the Minister confirm that we will not be disappointed?

Covid-19 Update

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, this Statement was made in the Commons on Tuesday and, as we know, events move quickly where the coronavirus pandemic is concerned. Since Tuesday, further details about the welcome breakthrough in the development of a vaccine have been emerging and there is much scope for optimism. Also welcome is that the Government have, at last, agreed to a six-day travel window for students in England next month, after the end of lockdown, so that they can go home before Christmas and undertake periods of isolation, if needed, and be with their families. This requires mass testing on university campuses before students can leave, so can the Minister update the House on the plans and arrangements for this, please?

However, yesterday we also reached the grim milestone of Britain’s Covid-19 death toll passing 50,000—a sobering reminder of the severity of the crisis, as we struggle through the second wave. As Labour’s leader, Keir Starmer, said:

“Behind these numbers is a devastated family, one for every death, and they have to be uppermost in our mind.”


The announcement in Tuesday’s Statement of twice-weekly routine testing for front-line NHS staff is a very important development. It is vital not just for protecting staff, but for infection control in healthcare settings. We have been pressing for a systematic programme for this for months. Can the Minister please update the House on the progress and roll-out timescales to which the Government are now working?

On testing more broadly, the Government have announced plans for the mass distribution of lateral flow tests. I understand that local directors of public health have been asked to develop local strategies, but does the Minister agree that families with a loved one in a care home should be given priority access to these tests, so that they can see, and hold the hand of, that loved one? Will public health teams be put in charge of contract tracing from day one? At a Commons Select Committee this week, the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, who is in charge of test and trace, finally admitted what we have been saying all along: that people are not self-isolating

“because they find it very difficult … the need to keep earning and … feed your family is … fundamental”.

Does the Minister therefore accept that a better package of financial support is needed to ensure isolation is adhered to? Can the Minister also tell the House if it is the Government’s intention to reduce the isolation period? What assessment has been made of evidence that a negative PCR swab, seven days after exposure, could release someone from quarantine?

The vaccine is a moment of great hope and optimism, in a bleak, dismal year that has shattered so many lives and families. The Government need to continue to be optimistic, but must be cautious to resist the urge to talk up and overpromise, and adopt their usual best-in-the-world rhetoric. As further details about the vaccine emerge, there will be many questions, and I am sure noble Lords will follow these up. We strongly support the priority list drawn up by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, under which care home residents and staff get the vaccine first, followed by the over-80s and other NHS and care staff. There will need to be widespread consultation with key stakeholders on the arrangements, timings, resources and logistics. Given past experience, can the Minister specifically reassure the House that the adult social care sector, and care homes in particular, will be fully involved in planning delivery of and administering the vaccine?

Just as important, how will the disproportionate impact of the virus on minority ethnic communities be taken into account, when drawing up the final priority list arrangements? What is the Government’s working assumption of what proportion of the population needs to be vaccinated to establish herd immunity and bring the R rate below one? Can the Minister outline the latest clinical thinking around vaccination of children?

I understand that each person will require two shots of the vaccine, three weeks apart, and that protection develops a month after the first shot. Details of the Government’s plan for what amounts to the biggest vaccine manufacture, campaign and distribution in history are beginning to emerge. We need to learn lessons from the failures of the rollout of test and trace, and the early procurement of PPE. None of us wants to see booking systems overloaded with people told to travel miles, as we have seen with testing, so when will we see the Government develop that plan and their overall strategy?

Are the Government working with international partners to ensure that there are enough raw materials, enzymes and bioreactors to guarantee the mass manufacturing needed? Will there be the cold chain for transport and storage in various parts of the country for the Pfizer vaccine, which needs to be kept at minus 70 degrees centigrade? Have arrangements begun for procurement of the appropriate storage equipment? Will liquid nitrogen and freezers be provided to health centres, doctors’ practices and care homes? How is the vaccine to be distributed and administered to ensure that it is kept at such low temperatures?

On safety, it is comforting that the Deputy CMO, Jonathan Van-Tam, has assured us that he would urge his elderly mother to be vaccinated and that safety will not be compromised, despite the speed of the programme. The regulator, the MRHA, has rightly promised that there is no chance that it will compromise on standards of safety or effectiveness. How do the Government plan to get that message across to the public?

We know that vaccine hesitancy and denial is a growing problem. Labour has offered to work with the Government on a cross-party basis to build public confidence in the vaccine, promote take-up and dispel anti-vax myths, many of which are not just fiction but malicious. I look forward to a positive response from the Minister.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister. I am going to address testing and tracing. He may not have answers but I should be grateful if he could write to me. There have been more than 10 million downloads of the NHS Covid-19 contact tracing app. There have also been many complaints of Bluetooth draining batteries. I second those. Will he confirm whether there is a solution in the pipeline for that issue? If people do as I do and just switch off Bluetooth, the system will not work. How many of these app users are active? If 10 million people are actively telling the world where they are and are checking in and out of where they have been, that is wonderful. But if they do not do so, it is not terribly helpful.

Critically, how many people have been triggered via the app to isolate? Of those, what proportion have had their isolation checked and by whom? Testing is quick and easy but the delay in response time is unhelpful. Swab processing time is not reducing due to the increase in the number of swabs, and labs are taking longer. Is there yet sufficient capacity, and how many staff are being trained weekly to take on the extra capacity? Can the Minister indicate the cost of taking a swab and getting the results back to the individual? Finally, will he confirm when he expects to move to lateral flow tests, which are much quicker and would transform the lives of the staff of care homes, their residents and visiting families?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful for the thoughtful questions of the noble Baronesses. I shall try to answer them as completely as I can but will write on any that I have omitted. As regards the questions about students, the programme of works with universities is extremely ambitious. I pay tribute to vice-chancellors and university administrations for working extremely closely with the Government, with the test and trace service and the DfE to mobilising the necessary arrangements in order to achieve the return home for Christmas.

This will include a large amount of mass testing on university campuses and in digs. There have already been successful pilots at Durham and De Montfort, using a variety of testing techniques and formats. Some tests have been done using telemedicine, some using traditional clipboard and picnic table techniques. There is further testing piloting to be done, but the indications are that this is proving an extremely successful model. It means that students can look forward to returning home for Christmas, confident that those who have the disease have been screened, and families can look forward to seeing students safely again.

On the testing of NHS workers, I agree with the noble Baroness that it is a priority. We are moving quickly on this. The purchase of tens of millions of lateral flow tests is a complete game-changer, and we remain committed to providing testing for the 1.3 million NHS workers. We aim to use lateral flow tests for some of these tests. NHS workers are themselves clinically trained, and it is appropriate for them to be able to use these tests. Therefore, we believe we can change the course of staff testing in the NHS environment using the new technology and a new approach to testing. I am extremely grateful to NHS colleagues for their participation in this important initiative.

Turning to DPHs, the noble Baroness is right that this is an important breakthrough. Again, the rollout of the lateral flow tests is important in that. She asked me about care homes, and she could have equally asked me about schools. I can deliver the same message on both: we have been sensitive to the appeals by DPHs for autonomy—for them to be able to make their own decisions, use their local intelligence and use their insight. That is why we have been reluctant to give any firm guidance on how they could or should use those tests. It is entirely up to DPHs to use the tests in the way they choose. But it is our expectation that some of those tests will be used in care homes, though there are other provisions for care home testing, and some will be used in schools, as well as for outbreak management and community testing.

The period for isolation is a subject under constant and rolling review by the CMO’s office and the policy team at DPH. I wish I could provide some kind of breakthrough—that the virus had in some way changed and was no longer infectious in people after a week or eight or nine days—but I am afraid I cannot provide that information. The frustrating thing about this virus is that it sits in the back of the throat or nose and remains infectious for an unfeasibly long time. That is why we are cautious about making dramatic changes in the isolation protocols.

What rapid testing provides is the opportunity to do frequent testing. The noble Baroness asked me about seven-day PCR tests; more likely and efficacious would be regular testing, every day or every other day, using the lateral flow tests, to do some form of test and release. We believe that avenue is more likely, and the CMO’s office is looking closely at that. It is entirely up to that office to make announcements on that score.

On adult social care, I reassure the noble Baroness that adult and child social care colleagues are fully involved in the preparations for a vaccine. She is right that social care provides its own set of challenges for the administration of the vaccine, but those are exactly the people we need to target with the vaccine. That is why they, particularly the elderly, are at the highest level of the JCVI’s prioritisation list. We are putting all our efforts into making sure that the vaccine delivery works for them.

The noble Baroness asked about ethnic minorities. May I put the question slightly differently? A number of difficult-to-reach groups have seen a high infection rate. It is a priority for us to make sure that the message on the vaccine breaks through any cultural, linguistic, demographic or other social barriers to get through to those groups who need it. They are not groups defined by race or the colour of their skin but by their proximity or otherwise to the normal course of government. We have learned through Covid that these groups are incredibly important from a public health point of view. From a values point of view, we owe it to them to do our best to reach them and we are putting the resources in place to do that. As for children, we have no current plans to vaccinate them. In terms of international partners, we are very focused on ensuring that all the intellectual property and manufacturing resources that we can possibly effect are put to work to get the vaccine into the arms of those around the world.

On cold storage, I reassure the noble Baroness that we have been on this for months. We have been aware of the demanding storage need of the Pfizer vaccine for a substantial amount of time and cold storage arrangements have been put in place. It is not necessary for that cold storage to be literally at the end of every street because the travel time for the vaccine is reasonably flexible. We have in place exactly what we need, not only for the Pfizer vaccine but for the Oxford vaccine and the others in the pipeline. JVT and Dr June Raine at the MHRA were crystal clear when they said that safety will not be compromised. I endorse their comments.

I will say a few words about our approach to managing messages to those who might feel anxious about the vaccine. This is not a moment for rebuttal or for attacking those who have questions about the vaccine, whatever those questions are and however far-fetched they might be. Our approach is to take all questions at face value, tackle them sincerely and approach them in an open-hearted way. By being defensive we play into the hands of those who have bad intentions, and by being aggressive we only amplify those causing trouble. Instead, we want to have an open dialogue with those who have concerns to emphasise the safety of the vaccine and, more generally, the normality of taking vaccines. It is with that kind of approach that we hope to deal with those who have concerns about taking vaccines.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, asked a number of questions about the app. I cannot give her precise numbers on absolutely everything she asked but I can reassure her on a couple of things. There have been 20 million downloads, not 10 million. Take-up of the app has been enormous and, week on week, we see a huge number of check-ins on the venue-based element of the app, which is a huge part of its effectiveness. It helps us enormously with contact tracing. As for Bluetooth and the battery, I am disappointed to hear that the noble Baroness has had trouble with her phone. On the whole, that is not the feedback we have had from users and the recent update has emphasised the low-energy aspects of the Bluetooth protocol that the app uses. We think it will improve the performance of the app and lessen its drain on the battery.

The noble Baroness asked about tests; I will answer broadly. The innovation that we have seen in diagnostics for Covid has been incredible. It has included far-fetched—to me at least—technologies such as mass spectrometry. Some innovations have used the plastic lateral flows, which, although low-tech in their appearance, use extremely advanced technologies and chemicals to achieve accuracy, speed and cost performance. Some, such as LAMP, have taken old technologies and repurposed them for a new use. It has been extremely exciting to see. It is my aspiration that we will see an inflection point in diagnostics in the UK. This will aid an overall strategic step towards early intervention and put diagnostics at the heart of our medical science. It has already played an important part for a long time, but this will put it centre stage. I pay tribute to the work of Professor Mike Richards, whose review of the future vision for diagnostics in the NHS provides us with a target to aim for as we expand and invest in our diagnostics around Covid.

Covid-19: Vaccine

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jolly]

To ask Her Majesty's Government, following the recent analysis of the effectiveness of the Pfizer and BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine, what arrangements they have put in place to distribute approved Covid-19 vaccines (1) in the United Kingdom, and (2) internationally; and who determines the protocol for priority of access to any such vaccines.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the NHS is preparing to be ready to deploy a Covid-19 vaccine as soon as one is safe and effective. Distribution arrangements remain flexible and include the make-up of the workforce needed to rapidly deliver a vaccination programme, training requirements, consumables and supporting infrastructure. The UK continues to work through multilaterals, such as the G7 and the G20, and with the WHO to agree collaborative approaches to supporting global vaccine development and distribution.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

The Government anticipate that the vaccination programme will start with the most vulnerable and those living and working in care homes. Vaccination into muscle does not need to be administered by a clinician; any of us could be trained to do it. Which organisations are the Government working with to make this happen? Can the Minister confirm that there will be no need to take out contracts with the private sector, but that the Government will use the military, local resources—such as public health, fire and ambulance services—and trained volunteers?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is entirely right that the range of people who can administer this vaccine is extremely wide. The challenge of administering so many vaccines in such a short amount of time will indeed require the involvement of a large range of people. We are putting in the recruitment and training necessary for that to happen. I am particularly grateful to all healthcare workers, particularly those from professions such as the pharmacy industry, who are stepping forward to meet this challenge. We are not allergic, though, to using the private sector in this matter, and we will be explaining the detailed terms of our arrangements at a later date.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the four noble Lords who tabled this amendment, all of whom are working from exactly the same brief as I am—I can tell that from the quotes. First, I should declare an interest: I have not been present in Committee before, but am here as a former president of the British Dietetic Association, a TUC-affiliated union. The Bill was published during the dying days of my presidency and I undertook to speak in support of the proposed new clause.

I have nothing substantial to add to what has been already been so ably said by colleagues. I will just point out that dieticians are one of the groups seeking to extend this, and people often misunderstand what dieticians are for. The number of times I have been asked whether I am associated with Weight Watchers has rather driven me insane, but dieticians are actually more involved with undernutrition than overnutrition. Although people think of obesity and what are now the more popular things, the biggest challenge facing the average dietician is a person probably over 80 years old, almost certainly living alone and generally not caring for themselves. So the role of a dietician is often to get people to eat a balanced diet. They work in hospitals and in the community, and with other health professionals, particularly in developing clinical management plans. That effort would be reduced if this proposed clause were accepted.

Points about dieticians and others have been extensively made. I understand that

“within three months of this Act being passed”

is a big ask, but also that, unless we ask for something, we will probably not get anything at all. The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has already quoted the Minister at Second Reading saying that they were

“considering across all non-medical groups … where there is a need to consider undertaking formal consultation on potential amendments to prescribing responsibilities”.—[Official Report, 2/9/20; col. 432.]

I realise that, at the time of Covid, there is a huge number of demands on the Minister’s department and the staff therein but, overall, if this can be made to work, it will benefit and increase the productivity of health professionals. So, in associating myself with the previous speeches, I also encourage the Minister to give as positive a response as he is able to. I am sure that, if we extend prescribing rights, we will be benefiting many patients and the medical profession. We will also be enabling many health workers to play a more effective role in the care of their patients.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 49 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Bradley. It mandates the Secretary of State to publish proposals and a timetable for additional healthcare professionals to be given appropriately restricted prescribing rights. As other noble Lords have said, for well over 20 years, some appropriately trained nurses have been prescribing from a restricted list. I see no reason why, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, described, appropriately trained allied health professionals and others, working from a list of approved medicines commensurate with their profession, should not do the same.

This is entirely appropriate at the moment, when it is not always easy to access a GP. We have seen how successful giving prescribing rights to both community and practice nurses has proven to be. Patients are becoming more willing to have appointments with AHPs and nurses, rather than GPs, which frees doctors to concentrate on patients requiring more experience, such as those with unusual or complex conditions. This is a win-win amendment and I heartily commend it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that there is keen interest in how we may use powers in Clause 2(1)(n) of the Bill, relying on Clause 1(1), to continue to update the prescribing and supply responsibilities of healthcare professionals. However, I hope to persuade noble Lords that Amendment 49, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is unnecessary.

I am very pleased to say to noble Lords that NHS England and NHS Improvement are already leading work to scope the current and potential future use of medicines supply, administration and prescribing mechanisms by a range of non-medical healthcare professionals. On 15 October, they started consulting on a range of proposals to extend medicines administration and supply responsibilities, and to update the medicines that some existing independent prescribers may prescribe.

The consultations cover the use of patient group directions by biomedical and clinical scientists and operating department practitioners, exemptions enabling dental therapists and hygienists to supply some medicines, and changes to the controlled drugs that can be prescribed by physiotherapists, podiatrists and paramedic independent prescribers. If progressed, these proposals would allow patients to get timely and safe access to medicines from the most appropriate healthcare professionals, without the need for extra appointments from other prescribers, such as a GP. The current consultation will run until 10 December and is of course a public consultation. It will be informed by the views of key patient and professional groups, with engagement starting shortly through a series of online events.

I reassure noble Lords that we are committed to updating the prescribing and supply responsibilities of professional groups, where it is safe and appropriate to do so. In keeping with the rest of the Bill, any such changes will be made in a way that serves the best interests of patients. The powers allow us to ensure that professional responsibilities can be updated to reflect developments in professional practice, new approaches to care, changing scientific understanding and growing technical abilities. This ensures that we can continue to make full use of the skills available to us among NHS professionals, and support patients to receive the best possible care and support from NHS staff.

I know that a number of NHS professional groups are keen to see their members taking on responsibility for supplying or prescribing medicines. We have recently seen papers put forward by the British Dietetic Association, the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, the British and Irish Orthoptic Society, the Society of Radiographers and the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. I am very grateful to the professional groups for the careful consideration that they have given to these issues.

I reassure noble Lords that NHSE/I already has extensive joint working and engagement under way with these and other professional groups to consider whether any other changes would help keep patients safe and well. This will build on the historic work with various professional bodies and the devolved Administrations, over the last few years, which resulted in a number of changes, including allowing paramedics and therapeutic radiographers to be independent prescribers. As well as this, a wider scoping project is being led by NHS England and NHS Improvement, with the devolved Administrations and professional bodies, on the current and potential future use of medicines supply, administration and prescribing mechanisms by a range of non-medical healthcare professionals.

I also reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who raised this that NHS England and NHS Improvement’s work on prescribing and supply will of course account for lessons learned from the Covid-19 response. For instance, NHSE/I wishes to learn from professional bodies and, in its scoping work, is asking them how the use of medicines mechanisms contributed and how they can play a role in increasing capacity to respond to future challenges. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, feels able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to move Amendment 62 in the name of my noble friend Lady Thornton. It amends Clause 9 of the Bill dealing with manufacture, marketing, supply and field trials. This is a probing amendment. It would give the Secretary of State the responsibility to make provisions, in respect of the cascade, risk-based decision-making process, allowing vets to prescribe unauthorised medicines when they are unable to get hold of suitable authorised medicines.

The cascade provision for the medical treatment of animals will be vitally important if there are problems with the supply of veterinary medicines in the event of no deal. The British Veterinary Association has underlined the importance of maintaining the cascade, and of the Veterinary Medicines Directorate reviewing the cascade to consider whether it would be possible to allow greater flexibility on the use of medicinal products licensed elsewhere in the EU and those of other partners within the International Cooperation on Harmonisation of Technical Requirements for Registration of Veterinary Medicine Products, known as VICH.

I am always struck by how much one learns during the course of working on legislation in the House of Lords, and how much is new that one was previously unaware of but should have been. The cascade system for prescribing unauthorised medicines is a good example for me. It is a vitally important procedure, underpinned by 2019 guidance from the Veterinary Medicines Directorate, whereby vets are permitted to use their clinical judgment where there is no suitable veterinary medicine authorised in the UK for the specific condition in the animal being treated. Cascade gives vets access to a wider range of medicines to treat animals within their care and to prevent unavoidable suffering that could happen were a vet unable to prescribe a suitable alternative.

The cascade goes through the various stages of decision-making in the treatment of animals in descending order of suitability, commencing with the desired outcome of using an available authorised UK veterinary medicine and going through other stages, including the use of clinically suitable alternatives of, for example, human medicines authorised in the UK or in another member state for use in animals. The final provision is for the use of a medicine prescribed by the vet responsible for treating the animal and prepared specially on the occasion of the treatment being required—known as “extemporaneous preparation”. This has to be prepared by a vet or a pharmacist or a person holding an appropriate manufacturer’s authorisation.

In exceptional circumstances, where no suitable veterinary medicine is available either as an authorised product or under the cascade, a vet may treat an animal with a medicine authorised in a country outside the EU via the Special Imports Scheme. Clearly, the guidelines and appropriate primary legislation will need to be amended in the light of our forthcoming exit from the EU—or if there is no deal. So can the Minister tell the Committee what preparations are being made in respect of this very important matter?

Prescribing decisions under the cascade are made on a case-by-case basis. The prescribing vet is personally responsible for the choice of product, is subject to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons’ code of professional conduct and must always obtain the owner’s consent for their animal to be treated under the cascade. Accurate record keeping is also required under the guidelines. Supplies of products used under the cascade and associated records can be examined during inspections of vets’ premises by the VMD and the RCVS. Under the last tier of the cascade, extemporaneous preparations —also known as veterinary specials—can legally be prescribed, supplied and used, recognising that they carry a higher risk than authorised medicines.

So this is an important scheme and the maintenance of the veterinary medicines cascade is a vital issue in the medical treatment of animals post Brexit, particularly in the event of no deal, as I said. I look forward to the Minister’s explanation of the action being taken to ensure that the cascade is maintained, continued and, if possible, simplified in line with the BVA’s recommendations. We need assurance that the Government will not use the powers in this Bill to diverge from the cascade after it is passed.

Finally, the BVA has underlined that, if it is to remain as one of the leading agencies in Europe and beyond, the Bill must be used to establish a national authorisation procedure for veterinary medicines, on the same scientific and evidence-based technical requirements as adopted by the EU, firmly rooted in the established standards set for quality, safety and effectiveness. The association has emphasised that, to have an influential voice in global veterinary regulatory affairs, it is vitally important for the UK to seek full membership of the international technical requirements registration body, the VICH, to which I referred earlier. I look forward to the Minister’s response on this vital issue.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, has given a really good description of the cascade and the way in which it works. It is a risk- based decision process whereby vets can dispense different medicines to animals beyond the term of authorisation. The BVA supports maintaining the cascade. Can the Minister confirm the arrangements if no suitable UK drugs are available? Can she also confirm that veterinary drugs will be part of trade deals with both the EU and the US?

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Jolly]

67A: After Clause 11, insert the following new Clause—
“Veterinary devices
(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed the Secretary of State must set up a working group to conduct a review of the regulation of veterinary devices.(2) The review under subjection (1) must make reference to the impact of the current system of regulation on—(a) animal welfare;(b) human safety; and(c) the environment.(3) The working group must consult bodies or individuals who are subject to regulation concerning veterinary devices during the course of the review. (4) The review under subsection (1) must make a recommendation as to whether further regulation should be introduced in light of its findings.(5) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the review before both Houses of Parliament.”

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, this Bill is about medicines and medical devices, and also includes veterinary medicines, which I understand the profession welcomes. I support government Amendment 131.

I confess, I wondered whether the veterinary part of the Bill was a bit of an afterthought, as although veterinary medicines are covered, I was somewhat bemused that there was no mention of veterinary devices. Modern vets make much use of veterinary and medical devices. Many pet owners expect their pets to be treated as well as they are by the NHS, and they are ready to pay. Many large animals, particularly stud animals, are of considerable value to their owners, who also expect modern treatment.

With a growing market for veterinary devices there are areas in which the absence of these devices often involves medical devices, but the profession anticipates that the veterinary device market will only increase and specialise. The Committee will appreciate that size is an issue. At present, many vets manage by using human medical devices, but I am sure the Committee will understand that vets treat animals of all sizes, from a hamster to a chihuahua, to a prize bull. I tabled these amendments in anticipation of a vibrant veterinary device market. To use devices designed for a human body weight is not always appropriate.

My amendment calls for the Secretary of State to set up a working group to conduct a review into the regulation of veterinary devices, referencing animal welfare, human safety and the environment, and make appropriate consultations before laying a copy of the review before both Houses. Amendment 67B is also in my name and calls for a review of the impact of the Bill on veterinary medicines.

We are in a transition, and by the end of 2021 or thereabouts there will be a clearer picture about veterinary medicines, a year after leaving the EU. The Secretary of State should consult relevant bodies, such as the BVA, the NFU and animal welfare groups such as the PDSA and the RSPCA, but I think noble Lords should agree that there is a case for veterinary devices in the Bill.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak to government Amendment 131, merely to ask a question. The amendment will require reporting, which is positive and is to be welcomed. However, it leaves the matter of who is to be consulted to the discretion of the Secretary of State, because proposed new subsection (2) refers to

“such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”,

while proposed new subsection (3)(a) requires the Secretary of State to take account of

“concerns raised, or proposals for change”,

but only those made by a person in accordance with subsection (2). Those persons are left to the discretion of the Secretary of State. It is not only the people who are consulted who are chosen; the list is produced by the Secretary of State.

To have any substance to it, the proposed new clause ought not to leave it to the whims of the individual Secretary of State to decide who ought to be consulted. There should be some minimal statutory list, or principles that can guide a list in practice, to give transparency and confidence. My question is quite simple: is it likely that the Government will produce a list of who they will consult?

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[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I will get to back to the noble Lord with the specific answer to that question, if I may.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I shall not detain the Committee for very long. I thank the Minister for his comments. I feel inclined at the moment not to withdraw my amendment, but I would like to read Hansard, consult and decide whether to return with these amendments, or something like them, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 67A withdrawn.

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I commend the noble Lords for tabling Amendment 83 and the consequent amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response to my comments and theirs. In particular, I ask the Minister: if regulation of this crucial area of medicine is not going to appear in the Bill—if this amendment or something like it is not going to be adopted—how will the Government ensure oversight?

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to technologies. Amendment 83, from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, to which I have added my name, seeks to improve how the Bill addresses new technologies which have significant potential for harm, and it aligns with and improves on the EU and US equivalents. The critical issue is: what is a medical device? Amendment 113, also from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, updates the definition of a medical device to bring it in line with the EU and US regulation, acknowledging the progress of technology beyond the Medical Devices Regulations 2002, which, in the world of programming, is very nearly the dark ages. I wonder if noble Lords remember ALGOL, FORTRAN and BASIC.

I support Amendment 83, to which I have added my name, and received a very helpful letter about Amendments 112 and 113 from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg. I listened very carefully to both him and, of course, my noble friend. I am happy to support their arguments and their amendments.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg and Lord Clement-Jones, have done the Committee a great service today. I was fascinated by the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, which set the tone for this discussion. I welcome his main points and his knowledge. He knows that I am a supporter of his work in this area, particularly on the protection of patient data.

It is a constant source of concern that either through carelessness, lack of expertise, unscrupulousness or policy fragmentation, our NHS will not benefit from AI and the use of patient data. I see this amendment as part of that discussion and that effort to decide what happens. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has asked some very pertinent questions about algorithms, how they change and how they develop. Our job, surely, during the course of this Bill, is to find legislation that is ahead of the technology for once, not behind it. I was particularly struck by what the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has to say about GOQii and the MHRA, and the definition for medical devices and algorithms. The use of AI and algorithms is not impartial. We know that, particularly given our recent experience with A-levels, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

The Minister has to find a way of ensuring that this Bill reflects the modern situation and does not stop innovation. I really hope that she is not going to say that those of us who are asking these questions are opposed to innovation, because that is absolutely not the case. These are very important questions indeed for the future, as we find ourselves between the FDA and the European Union, and we make our way in this particular world.

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[Baroness Redfern (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak to this group of amendments, and to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, who has been so diligent in her review in proposing such needed changes, and making good for the recipient and building user confidence in the devices offered. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro—as well, of course, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege.

I spoke on Second Reading in support of an extensive programme for medical devices, to provide for high standards of safety and to share vital information, with data central to effectiveness. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in her review, regarded being able to track which treatments and implants people have had as being of particular importance. A barcoded wristband, with equipment used in treatment, including implantable medical devices, being scanned and tracked to a patient’s record, would save much precious time for product recalls, and reduce drug errors.

This means knowing who has had a device used in their treatment, so that they can be swiftly notified if there is a problem. Having unique device identification is therefore very important. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, said—and I agree—that we must consider tracking all medical devices used in the UK, rather than a select few.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we support the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, and Amendment 103 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. Registers are a tool that helps clinicians to track devices and those who have the devices fitted or implanted, and to use the data for research and to aid patients to seek redress.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, explained clearly how the amendment would work to help to change a medical device that no longer functions. By citing the recall mechanism for a faulty domestic product, she illustrated what is required of a device register.

The amendments in this group relate to the tracking of medical devices, and the information stored. Amendments 86, 88 and 102 would allow regulations to provide for the tracking of all devices, as they are used, via a unique device identifier, with the information recorded either in registries or through hospital episode statistics data.

Amendment 103 is an important amendment, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that seeks to clarify which information held by the healthcare system requires the consent of the relevant patient. Data is powerful, and should be kept appropriately. The governance of data has been a key issue in the NHS for more than 20 years.

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[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, would require the Secretary of State to introduce a scheme to promote the availability of innovative medical devices for human use within the NHS. The scheme would be known as the NHS innovative medical devices fund.

The Secretary of State is charged with providing the funding and I welcome that approach. She has explained that custom-made devices are both difficult and expensive to fund, especially for the subsequent development of innovative devices with repeated trials. It can also be frustrating. A medical devices fund could take an innovation from concept through its development to production and then be rolled out widely, with any gains being returned to the fund or to the NHS organisation hosting the work. Clearly, flesh needs to be put on to those bones, but as I explained in an earlier Committee session, there is a fund that is particular to orthopaedics which is managed by a charity. In effect, every year it calls for bids, often from start-ups. It supports a certain number of the bids and any profits come back to the charity, which can also choose to be a partner in the venture. Some of the bids come from academia and others from within the NHS, but it works.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

This amendment is interesting and certainly worthy of consideration. The innovative medical devices fund would insert a new subsection into the National Health Service Act 2006. Section 261 provides powers for the Secretary of State in relation to voluntary schemes to control the cost of medicines. The section describes these as schemes that are joined voluntarily and limit the price that may be charged on the profits that may accrue from the manufacture and supply of health service medicines. The scheme also provides for manufacturers and suppliers to pay the Secretary of State an amount of money if the agreed limits are breached. Amendment 91A would create a voluntary scheme under Section 261 which would be specifically for medical devices to give them equal treatment as innovative medicines. The Minister will have to explain why that would not be a good idea.

In her speech at Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, talked about making the UK a medical devices development and production hub. Too often the UK effort has been bought out by overseas manufacturers who then market the devices back to the NHS at great profit.

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[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will need to speak only very briefly because the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Walmsley, have covered the ground extensively, fully and informatively. It is a privilege to be involved in an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Field of Birkenhead. We have been friends, discussing such issues for very many years, although he was in a different House, so it is a pleasure to see him and support his amendment.

My noble friend Lord Field spoke from personal experience, and my noble friend Lady Meacher spoke extensively about the information available. In 1998, the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Lords recommended that there should be a programme to assess the medicinal use of cannabis and that ways should be found to use it. NICE has recommended one or two areas where it can be used, as has already been said. Very few NHS prescriptions have been given out, but more than 1 million people use cannabis preparations bought privately at huge cost. They use them because they find benefit from them. The report suggests that the people who benefit from it mostly suffer from chronic pain. Despite that, reports have been published where people with Alzheimer’s, cancer, chronic pain, Crohn’s disease and multiple sclerosis, to name but a few, found benefits from it. More than 20,000 publications on PubMed, not of clinical trials, but of people’s experience and data collected from patients, show that they have found it to be beneficial.

When recommending and assessing medicinal products using cannabis, NICE suggested that research should be carried out in six or seven areas. I do not know what research has been carried out. The problem with such a recommendation is that it does not recommend who should do the research. So I ask the question: who should be doing this research to explore the benefits that patients find in medicinal cannabis?

Private clinics prescribe more and more cannabis on a daily basis, and more and more clinics are opening in cities in England where cannabis is available. My noble friend Lady Meacher and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, alluded to two important issues. One is that a way needs to be found to collect information on patients’ experiences and data to show why so many patients go to private clinics to get cannabis products and what benefits they derive from them.

I look forward to the Minister’s response, but I hope she may agree, as it would not require legislation or an amendment to the Bill, that the NIHR or the Department of Health and Social Care through the NIHR should establish a forum of specialists, including patients, to find a way forward to collect information on a more formal basis. I hope the Minister will respond positively to that. It has been a pleasure to take part in this debate.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the amendment signed by my noble friend Lady Walmsley and others would require the Secretary of State to make regulations concerning medicinal cannabis and associated devices. The noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, made his case clearly and strongly. I have a family member who used cannabis as a painkiller towards the end of their life when pharmaceuticals failed. Given the huge relief it can bring to patients with conditions such as epilepsy, it is vital that barriers to access are removed. We have heard that since the law was changed in November 2018, only a very small number of prescriptions have been written for medical cannabis.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, have for many years supported the use of medical cannabis for a small number of conditions. Very few patients have received their medicine on the NHS because NICE has yet to approve the use of cannabis in any context. Evidence is available, so why are the Government fighting shy of using cannabis or its derivatives, thus forcing individuals to become criminals by having to go abroad to countries where cannabis is legally available, but at a huge cost, and then smuggle it home? It does not make sense. We support the amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

We do not seem to be able to contact the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.

Covid-19: Transparency and Accuracy of Statistics

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Royal Society for its involvement in much of the work that we are discussing; it is a key contributor to some of the scientific thinking and modelling. As for public support, I remind the noble Lord that there is enormous public support for the measures introduced by the Government: in fact, more people think that our measures have not gone far enough than support them.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the same level of regional and cluster detail is needed for the Covid-19 status of residents in care homes as for those in the NHS. When do we expect to have this level of detail for care homes? Can the Minister tell the House how many people are currently resident in English care homes with Covid-19 and what level of confidence the Government have in official statistics on that subject?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that, statistically, care homes present a unique challenge. There are more than 15,000 care homes, many of which are not plugged into day-to-day statistical canvassing and, therefore, knowing exactly what happens in every care home every day is a particularly large challenge. However, we have thrown an enormous amount of resources at that problem, and our understanding of the care home situation in relation to Covid is much better than it was. The precise statistics she asks for today are not at my fingertips, but I would be glad to write to her with a number.

Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I believe this is the first time we have debated one of these statutory instruments before they come into force—there will be more, and I hope this sets a trend. This is the umpteenth of these regulations since Covid began in the UK, and it is worth remembering this SI applies only to England. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own legislation, outlining their restrictions.

The SI is in five parts: Part 1 sets out the definitions for the rest of the regulations; Part 2 is a list of 12 reasons one can leave the home; Part 3 has “Restrictions on gatherings”; Part 4 the restrictions on businesses, and Part 5 gives details about enforcement. It will expire in 28 days and goes into the first week of December but, as Mr Gove pointed out, lockdown can be always be extended further. The fervent hope is that this lockdown will curb the virus, as it did in the spring.

As has been said many times before, public health and environmental health know their areas well and are best placed to support and work closely with their communities. Local authorities are best placed to test, track and isolate. My noble friend Lord Scriven put it well: he referred to “shoe-leather epidemiology”.

We have four weeks. Can the Minister explain how his department will work with local authorities in this time? Can he confirm that we are in a much better place regarding PPE, both in the NHS and in care homes? In the space between lockdowns, have we found a way for those in care homes to see their family? Could the testing system used in Liverpool be adapted for determining the Covid status of staff and visitors to care homes?

We have often debated the problem of mental health in people who will again be confined to home—particularly, but not exclusively, the elderly and those who are ill. Many who have never before had a mental health problem now do. What support is available to them and how might they find that support? Can the Minister signpost the way to talking therapies?

Once we have reached the end of these restrictions, how confident are the Government that the population will not head out to party and shop in the Christmas spirit, undoing much of the good that the lockdown achieved?

Our local church congregation has spent some considerable time ensuring that distanced worship is possible, and I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester about championing public worship and the need to keep open churches, synagogues, temples, mosques and gurdwaras.

Regulation 3 refers to elite sportspeople. I enjoy watching sport, like many of us, and I fit into the category of someone who watches key annual national matches and has a preference for some sports over others. But why are those well-paid members of the sports community not treated like anyone else who has a living to earn? Why does the help and support they get not apply to professional musicians playing for a national orchestra, or actors? Perhaps I am missing something obvious, and I wonder whether the Minister would enlighten me.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, made a really good point about play. Will the Minister outline why children cannot take part in organised outdoor sport outside school? It would be good for their well-being and fitness. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, underpinned the argument by speaking about the benefit of riding for the disabled.

In the past I have asked the Minister about the number of people who have been fined for breaking the regulations. I am sure we appreciate that the police have plenty to do without having to attend to those contravening these regulations. Is anyone in the Department of Health and Social Care or the Home Office keeping a record of these penalties and how much has been added to the Exchequer in fines? Is there a particular age or gender profile?

Moving to test and trace, the Government should invest heavily in localised test, trace and isolate to bring it up to speed before Christmas. I welcome the move to pay those on low incomes who test positive a £500 support payment. I understand that No. 10 might be concerned about quarantine compliance. Can the Minister confirm a press report that, soon, if tested positive there will be a need to self-isolate for a week only? It is one of the rumours going around, but I cannot find a definitive government source. Experience thus far suggests that between only one-fifth and one-quarter isolate fully, so that might be a pragmatic solution. It is difficult to predict what individuals will do. In my region, the south-west, the situation has been quite clear thus far, but now we note that Covid numbers are rising.

Over the last few days, we have seen the spotlight fall on Liverpool, where there will be the first all-population testing programme, involving half a million people. We await the results and following action with interest. Can the Minister explain the technology being used and the process of selecting that technology? How many candidates were looked at and what sort of prior testing took place, and where? Was single-source procurement used, and if so why?

Many noble Lords have asked about the quality and availability of evidence. We need to know who to believe, but those making decisions about our future surely need to know that as well.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 4th November 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. Lady Finlay? I think we had better move on and we can come back. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this amendment would require the Secretary of State to establish the innovative medicines fund, as promised in the Conservative’s 2019 manifesto. It provides that it is funded from rebates paid to the Government under the terms of the pharmaceutical price regulation scheme.

The Cancer Drugs Fund was a Cameron initiative from the general election of 2010, and the 2019 general election saw a Johnson extension: the innovative medicines fund. He promised that

“doctors can use the most advanced, life-saving treatments for conditions such as cancer or autoimmune disease, or for children with other rare diseases.”

The promise was to increase the funding to £0.5 billion. Can the Minister confirm the figure and clarify how “innovative” will be defined? Importantly, how will the fund address the UK issue of combination pricing, where some new cancer treatments are not cost effective, even when the price is nothing?

There are questions about what drugs outside of cancer drugs could qualify to go into the new fund. Can the Minister help with a response here? There might be candidates from medicines selected for the early access to medicines fund, a pre-licensing indicator of promising innovation given by the MHRA. This would allow them to be funded while further evidence is generated. Given the focus on innovation and the very reason for EAMS to designate a drug as a promising innovative medicine, which is a prerequisite for any drug to get a full, positive EAMS designation, there looks to be a good fit, and we support it.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I support this amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Patel. It is very much the ambition to ensure access for UK patients to the latest and most innovative treatments. This is reflected in many of our amendments to this Bill, relating to attractiveness, clinical trials and regulatory alignment with the European Medicines Agency.

We fully support the Government’s commitment to extend the Cancer Drugs Fund into a £0.5 billion innovative medicines fund to be used for

“the most advanced, life-saving treatments for conditions such as cancer or autoimmune disease, or for children with other rare diseases”.

If, at last, the principle of using the rebates from the pharmaceutical rebates scheme could be achieved so that they are used for the benefit of the NHS and patients, then this will represent progress indeed, particularly ensuring that the money is used as an additional source of income and revenue for the NHS and is not part of expected and planned funding.

Like other noble Lords, we are very much looking forward to hearing from the Government the detail of their proposals, when they intend to commence the promised consultation and the proposed timetable for implementation.

We heard in previous debates important questions as to how the new fund will relate to the current NICE process for reviewing new cancer drugs, particularly those to treat rare cancers, and, more broadly, around what drugs will qualify, outside of cancer, to be covered by the new fund. For example, there may be candidates from medicines selected for the early access to medicines fund, the MHRA’s pre-licensing indicator of promising innovation, allowing them to be funded while further evidence is generated. Given the focus on innovation and the very reason for EAMS to designate a drug as a promising innovative medicine, a prerequisite for any drug to get a full, positive EAMS designation, what consideration have the Government given to this?

Detail, too, is needed, as we have heard, on the criteria that will apply to any prospective drug for the fund. I certainly endorse the comments of the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, on needing to have an ambitious definition of innovation. Will the criteria mirror the current processes that the NICE committee considers for funding under the CDF, or will it be widened to reflect and include some of the criteria for highly specialised technologies, where NICE takes a different approach to treatments for some of the rarest conditions?

One of the key concerns in earlier discussions in Committee was the need for reassurances about NICE’s work to support innovation and to ensure that the current NICE review of its methods and processes is open and transparent and delivers real and effective change. As was made clear, it is important that we learn lessons from both the strengths and criticisms of the CDF, and that we ensure speedy access to new medicines going forward. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

I should apologise to noble Lords: my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones is unable to be part of today’s Committee, so I will be speaking on his behalf—at some length but without, I suspect, his bravura.

Amendment 30 seeks to tighten the provisions in Clause 3 to avoid the unintended consequences of data being used for purposes other than to ensure that medicines are safe. Amendment 31 also seeks to do this, by requiring a framework for data to be used as agreed in consultation with the pharmaceutical industry, and Amendment 33 places a duty on the Secretary of State to

“act with a view to”,

rather than

“have regard to the importance of”,

ensuring that information is retained securely when exercising powers.

There is no doubt that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones are travelling down the same road, and I have very similar concerns. That is why we signed Amendment 30, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his support for the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones.

As explained at Second Reading, there are grave concerns about the wording of Clause 3(1)(b), relating to the development of a UK system to prevent the supply of falsified medicines. The clause refers to

“the use, retention and disclosure, for any purpose to do with human medicines, of information collected”

by such a system. This is an attempt to unreasonably broaden the original data-collection provisions of the Falsified Medicines Directive after the transition period.

The background to the current legislation is very clear. By the early 2000s, pharmaceutical companies were concerned about falsified, counterfeit products entering the legitimate medicines supply chain—especially high-value items such as Viagra. At that time, this was the only real way to distribute such products at scale. Schemes involving pack serialisation were proposed to reduce the risk of reputational and trading losses from counterfeit and falsified medicines entering the supply chain, and to reduce the potential risk of harm to patients.

A stakeholder model was established which is governed by the main groups in the supply chain and funded mainly by manufacturers—branded, generic and parallel trade—with smaller contributions to costs from wholesalers and pharmacies. These proposals became the EU Falsified Medicines Directive 2011/62/EU. In the meantime, the issue of falsified medicines had moved largely to the internet, where they are sold from trading platforms and/or unlicensed pharmacies.

So why is data use so important? As the Company Chemists’ Association has pointed out, data is a very sensitive commercial currency. All parts of the medicines supply chain need access to broad patterns of medicines usage for the purpose of planning or adjusting manufacturing, marketing, prescribing, buying and stock control. But access to pack information—who is handling which packs—could highlight purchasing decisions, the margins being made and those trading for import/export purposes.

So the principle of “Whoever generates the data owns the data” was enshrined in Article 38 of the associated delegated regulation of 2016. As a result, general access to FMD data is restricted to pack information—name, batch, expiry, serial number—and active/inactive status, with some exceptions for investigating incidents and national competent authority use for reports, reimbursement, and pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology research.

The Department of Health and Social Care already has access to a very wide range of data on the sales of medicines, and their use in the UK, under the Health Service Products (Provision and Disclosure of Information) Regulations 2018. These require manufacturers, wholesalers and pharmacies to provide summaries of products sold and prices paid. Ministers can request more detailed information if required.

Given both this access and the known sensitivities around FMD data, it is unclear why the department has included the sweeping provision of Clause 3(1)(b) on the use, retention and disclosure for any purpose of data collected under a falsified medicines system, and why this has not been discussed with stakeholders in the existing Falsified Medicines Directive scheme.

The pharmacy community has concerns not just that the department might accidentally release commercially sensitive data—this is covered by Clause 3(3)—but that it might use such data to gain unfair advantage by abusing its monopoly position as the main purchaser of medicines in the UK. Pharmacies wish to see data use under any future system being part of an agreement that has been subject to discussion with stakeholders and approved by Parliament. My noble friend understands that the department has said that the details of any proposed use under a new falsified medicines system would be contained in a statutory instrument by the affirmative procedure.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that the intention of Amendment 30, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is to prevent the use of data for any purpose other than preventing the supply of falsified human medicines. The noble Baroness raises an important question. Let me reassure her that we have thought very carefully about these powers. There is an important precedent already for using the data held in the current EU Falsified Medicines Directive “safety features” system for wider purposes. For instance, as well as using the data to investigate instances of falsified medicines, data on the EU system can be used for the purposes of reimbursement, pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology. The effect of this amendment would be a step backwards on what any potential falsified medicines scheme introduced under Clause 3 could deliver.

We know from implementation of the EU system that the checks involved could generate a rich source of data, and that there may be circumstances where we would want to be able to use that data to support the safe and effective use of medicines. For example, information in a future falsified medicines scheme could be useful in the event of a product recall to help quickly identify individually affected packs. I recognise that information about the supply of medicines through the supply chain can be commercially sensitive—the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, made this point very well. That is why Clause 3 ensures that, in making regulations under this power, the appropriate authority must ensure that information is retained securely. Information will be subject to strict controls set out in regulations, including what purposes the data could be used for, who would have access to or use it, and under what conditions.

I turn to the noble Baroness’s second amendment in this group, Amendment 33. While I understand the desire of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, to ensure that we have robust requirements around the safeguarding of information, this amendment would cause difficulty for the appropriate authority making regulations under the provision in Clause 3. This is because it would require action to secure retention of data even where the regulations themselves may not concern data—for example, provisions related to who may set up the infrastructure.

Amendments 31 and 32, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would operate together to place an obligation on the Secretary of State to seek to agree and lay a framework on the use of information collected for the purpose of preventing the supply of falsified medicines. This would be done within six months of the Act coming into force.

We can all agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others that close collaboration through consultation with stakeholders, including with pharmacists, is essential to getting something like this right, not least given the importance of data security. However, Amendments 31 and 32 would not create the right mechanism for providing this. I can reassure the noble Lord that we have planned fulsome engagement and consultation with a wide range of stakeholders. This can be achieved without this additional obligation, but I would be glad to commit to an engagement session with noble Lords and officials if noble Lords would find this helpful.

The Government have committed to exploring all options in regard to a falsified medicines scheme to ensure that patients continue to be protected from the public health threat posed by falsified medicines. As part of this, we will explore with stakeholders what information needs to be collected as part of any national scheme. Only once we have established how any scheme could work can we fully consider how the information that it collects could be used to deliver the most benefits for the UK and for patients. However, this amendment would force us to consult on an agreed framework outlining the use of information within six months of Royal Assent, without necessarily having the full picture of how a national scheme could work.

We also want to explore creative uses of information as long as they are for public interest purposes. Therefore, we do not want to constrain or limit options ahead of engagement with stakeholders.

I should make it very clear that the overarching principles of the Bill as set out in Clause 1 also apply to our powers here. The scope of the purposes mentioned is not unfettered. The appropriate authority must be satisfied that regulations dealing with anything under Clause 3—not just around how the information will be used—will promote the health and safety of the public. In making that assessment, the appropriate authority is required to have regard to the three considerations discussed previously in Committee.

I remind noble Lords that Amendment 126 in my name ensures that this will be a public consultation, while Amendment 131, also in my name, places an obligation on the Secretary of State to review regulatory changes made under Clause 1(1). The consultation will consider how the information collected as part of the scheme could be used, and any regulations providing for the use of information would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny under the affirmative procedure. In light of these reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, will feel able to withdraw her amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will be content not to press his.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My understanding is that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, since March 2011, the European Medicines Agency made available information on clinical trials in children via a public interface, the European Union Clinical Trials Register. The register is based on the information stored in EudraCT, a European database that contains information on all clinical trials with at least a site in the EEA. Can the Minister clarify whether this information will be available to researchers and paediatricians in the UK? Can he confirm whether this point has been part of EU negotiations? Can he further clarify whether there is any difference with data from joint research projects operating across the island of Ireland? Are all data equally accessible? We support the amendment.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I will not add much more, as I am very interested to hear what the Minister has to say. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, has done the Committee a great service by tabling the amendment and asking this question. I was not aware that there was an issue here, which there clearly might be, and I will be interested to hear the answer. If this is an area that is covered by European Union regulation, and we are therefore creating a new regulatory framework for children’s data in clinical trials, it is important that we know that and how it might happen. I am very interested to hear what the Minister has to say.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we support these amendments, which relate to the disapplication of regulatory provisions in an emergency. As the Bill stands, the Secretary of State may make regulations about these provisions. This can be subject either to

“conditions set out in the regulations”

or in

“a protocol published by the appropriate authority.”

As the protocol is not subject to parliamentary scrutiny, the amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Patel, would remove this provision from the Bill so that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, said, conditions would have to be set by regulations alone.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the lockdown debate later this afternoon brings home the significance of an emergency like Covid. It requires swift, dramatic change to protect public health. Clauses 6 and 15 are essential. They would allow us to make provisions about the disapplication of a medicine or medical devices provision where there is a need to protect the public from a serious risk to health. We would need regulations to do this, because to act in breach of an otherwise applicable provision would be an offence.

Medicines is a highly regulated area. Regulations apply from development of medicines to delivery, right the way down to the pharmacy. It is a complex and overlapping system, designed to protect the end-user, the patient. But there are times when we need to switch off a circuit of the system to respond to an emergency. This is most vividly apparent when we speak of a Covid vaccine. This is end to end, from port arrival, to the logistics of its delivery, to who may administer it. We need to be able to pick this circuit out of the whole and isolate it. Otherwise, to disapply regulation without being highly specific is to disapply regulation not just from the vaccine but from other medicines as well.

This is the point of conditions that go alongside the disapplication. Where we know what the conditions will be, of course it should be in the regulations. But often we cannot know what the specific conditions are. That is where the protocol comes in that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, with her Amendments 46, 47, 93 and 94, would like to remove. I acknowledge that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee objected to the use of a protocol. I note that its condemnation was not limited to this Bill but was a broader point about other legislation as well. I hope that I can explain why such a protocol is necessary here.

Protocols are a last resort in any emergency that provides critical flexibility in highly regulated areas. They would be time limited to provide flexibility and administrative detail, tailored to the professional audience that requires it and in language which they are familiar with. A protocol will be used only where it is not be possible to determine all the necessary conditions of disapplication at the pace needed to deal with an urgent threat. The protocol allows for the finer details to be sketched in, while giving Parliament the structure of the regulations to consider. We can debate the principle of disapplying certain provisions of the regulations, without always having the specific names of medicines or vaccines in front of us.

There are existing provisions in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 that allow for the disapplication of regulatory provisions on how prescription, pharmacy and over-the-counter medicines may lawfully be supplied. These are limited to circumstances in the event or anticipation of a pandemic disease. This formed part of the response to the swine flu pandemic in 2009. Six protocols were issued in relation to specific antivirals for the treatment of swine flu, enabling them to be supplied by authorised staff who would not normally be able to supply prescription-only medicines. This involved separate protocols for different strengths of oseltamivir, a demonstration of just how specific we would expect the protocols to be.

We have made an SI this month introducing provision for the use of protocols in relation to coronavirus and influenza vaccinations. That SI seeks to anticipate the certain flexibilities that might be needed but it is not possible to cover all eventualities. It anticipates the need for rapid supply and the potential mass administration of medicines, since the anticipated vaccine may be delivered by injection.

However, until we are presented with a vaccine, we cannot know how many injections are required, for example. That is a finer point of detail that has implications for the scale of operation required. The SI makes clear that the disapplication of existing regulatory provisions about supply and administration of medicines will be subject to conditions set out in the protocol. These conditions of disapplication will include specifics around the class of persons permitted to administer the vaccines, and the protocol would specify the process by which a person in that class is designated as a person authorised to do so. It will provide for supervision and recording requirements that must be met when the vaccine is administered. These requirements will change depending on the necessities of the specific vaccine. Parliament can debate the regulation, but until we know the detail of that vaccine, we simply cannot establish how this operation will run.

The emergency powers allow us to go broader in terms of disapplications than what is currently available, a reflection of the type of emergency we face. In the illustrative SI published on introduction we have provided some clarity on our intent. It gives an example of what might be needed to ensure the disapplication could be relied upon in response to other circumstances, including a spread of toxins, pathogenic agents, and so on, that give rise to the risk of serious harm to health. This too would operate alongside a protocol.

Amendments 93 and 97 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, relate to emergencies involving medical devices. Provisions already exist in the Medical Devices Regulations 2002. These provisions allow particular devices to be put into service without being subject to CE marking, following a duly justified request if the Secretary of State considers this to be in the interests of the protection of health.

The ventilator challenge allowed us to fulfil the clinical need for ventilators through a combination of CE-marked devices, and devices which were granted an exemption from the requirement. They were required to conform to bespoke technical specifications as a condition of the exemption being granted, and the technical specifications evolved as they needed to. That ensured that the only devices in service without a CE mark were those that met the highest possible standards.

Online publication will also support dissemination to the required audience, to whom it will be targeted, such as operators in the supply chain, enabling conditions to be quickly understood by those who must use them, referring to concepts, processes and so on that they are familiar with from their field.

Protocols are a last-resort power. Where we can anticipate what the conditions of disapplication will be, we will put these into regulations, but I cannot say now how many injections will be required for a Covid vaccine or how many staff will be needed to deliver it. Parliament has our intent, our plans and our proactive preparations now, but not technical specifications—nor do we. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and her team for all they do to hold us to account. It is right that they look at how we can write good legislation, although we need legislation that allows for practicality in a crisis. Therefore, I hope I have provided enough assurances for her to feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Social Care

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the power of the CQC’s comments, and its report is indeed powerful. However, I have to be realistic. We are in the midst of a Covid winter, when there are enormous challenges in keeping the show on the road. We have an infection control fund of £600 million invested in social care, which demonstrates both the commitment of the Government to supporting social care and the sheer scale of ensuring that those in social care through this winter are protected from Covid and other influenzas. It just would not be right to launch an important and industry-changing reform process when the focus of everyone in social care is the protection of the vulnerable and our loved ones.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, is absolutely right to ask this Question on an issue that Covid has highlighted as needing urgent and very long-overdue reform. I am pleased that the Government have plans to work on a cross-party basis to sort out this pressing issue. When does the Minister expect those talks to begin?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

Talks are happening in the background in many ways. I cannot give the noble Baroness a precise date, because our focus is very much on managing Covid and learning its lessons, including from the CQC report that the noble Baroness rightly pointed out. But this is a massive priority both for the Government and for opposition parties, and I can reassure the noble Baroness that it will be taken on board at the soonest possible moment.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for tabling their amendments, which allow us to have a useful debate; we might not otherwise reach into what some implications of the use of these powers might be. I particularly thank them for the way in which the amendments were introduced, which set out clearly and fairly the context and facts with which we need to work.

I recognise that Amendment 23 is a probing amendment. I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that, if she actually wanted to remove the capacity for legislating to introduce hub and spoke models, Clause 2(1)(g) would have to go as well as paragraph (c) to make that effective, but I do not think she wants to do that; I do not either. We all want to express our support for the pharmacy sector. In my view, the Government’s proposals in the Bill will allow that support to be given additional expression; they seem a positive step to have taken.

As someone who was shielded earlier in the year, about the only place I ever visited in April and May was the local pharmacy—not that often, but the fact that it was there and working, and the way in which it worked, was immensely impressive. Over the years, I have had a great deal to do with the pharmacy industry. In some cases, I am not sure that it was altogether happy about that. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, may remember that I worked with the National Audit Office in about 2008, when I was shadow Secretary of State, to establish the extent to which the pharmacy sector benefited through the category M reimbursement system by hundreds of millions of pounds more than it was supposed to. Those large-scale additional funds that were going into the sector had to be clawed back, as happened in the early part of the decade that we have just gone through.

That led to considerable turbulence in pharmacy incomes and values. They were overinflated and the incomes were higher between about 2015 and 2018, and the considerable clawback had a negative impact. Most recently, it is telling that the value of pharmacies—and the price increase—has gone down. It is also interesting to read the commentaries that say that pharmacy in Scotland attracts greater value because the flow of resources into it there is regarded as more stable than in England.

That is a great pity, because we have reached a point where there should be more stability and funding for pharmacies, and I want to pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. He suggested that the Government consider turning the advance payment into not a loan but a grant. It is a large sum of money, so it is not as easy as that. However, whereas earlier this year the global fund for pharmacies was set at about £2.6 billion and was going to be retained at that level in cash terms over five years, we have to think hard about whether that is reasonable under the circumstances. There is a good case for recognising additional costs met by pharmacies this year, and potentially into next year, and for reimbursing them perhaps through a change to the establishment fee before it disappears, with a considerable sum to recognise that.

We must also recognise that pharmacies will need real-terms increases in their resources—much as other parts of the NHS-related system are seeing real-terms increases in resources—and not to stand still in cash terms. Over the next four years, that might be something like £130 million extra.

All the way through, we have never achieved as much as we should in terms of pharmacies delivering additional services, particularly clinical services. It is partly because clinical commissioning groups have never quite recognised the flexibility they have in budget terms to use pharmacies. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, referred, quite rightly, to medicines use reviews—which are being phased out—new medicine services, nicotine-replacement services, sexual health services, minor illness services and so on. A wide range of additional services can be provided by pharmacies. If they can do it, frankly, the GPs, as those at the heart of the clinical commissioning groups, will find that it benefits them directly in reduced demand on their surgeries, which is of course one of their principal stresses at the moment. I hope that the Government will think about all that.

In this context, with these powers in the Bill, the Government do not need to know whether a large number of independent pharmacies will take advantage of the hub and spoke model. It is entirely permissive; they can choose to do so or not. The fact that they cannot at the moment is a significant potential constraint on the ability of independent pharmacies to access the benefits of automation in their sector. I am absolutely clear that we ought to give them access to this potential benefit. I do not know how many would take advantage of it or to what extent the large company chains would make their hub and spoke model available to allow independent pharmacies to get the benefits of that automation. It seems to me that they should, because there are many parts of the country that they do not reach and where they are not in competition. It is perfectly reasonable for them to allow them to access to it, particularly in some of those more remote parts of the country where dispensing is more difficult.

Many of the concerns raised about this in the debate seem to come down to the separate question that I can remember debating on legislation 15 or more years ago about whether we retain the role of the responsible pharmacist. This does not change that. The responsible pharmacist will remain as is; I do not see any plan to change that part of the pharmacy regulation. The change to hub and spoke seems potentially desirable.

While Amendment 29 does not need to be in the Bill, it makes a very good point, which is that there should be consultation and an agreed framework with the industry, and we should ensure that the framework is one that is seen to link resources and changes in the regulations, to enable it to compete more effectively. To that extent, I hope the Minister will take on board and support the intentions of Amendment 29.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their kind words and messages. I now have a tentative diagnosis and when I get my medication I hope to be functioning at 100% soon.

These amendments are on hub and spoke dispensing, where a hub pharmacy dispenses medicines on a large scale, often by making use of automation, preparing and assembling the medicines for regular spoke pharmacies that supply the medicines to the patient. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones has given a detailed account of how hub and spoke works.

When the five-year funding contract for pharmacy in England was announced, the Government also pledged to change legislation so that independent pharmacies could operate this hub and spoke dispensing model. My noble friend tabled Amendment 29, which would ensure that the Government consult stakeholders on how hub and spoke is used and agree a framework with the support of the relevant sectors. This will ensure that the expected savings and efficiencies, and new healthcare services via pharmacies, can be delivered.

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To justify resisting this amendment, the Minister must spell out the unintended consequences of this if there are any. To say this is not the Bill, or not the time, and so on, will just not be good enough.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and signed by my noble friend Lady Northover, allows the Secretary of State to make regulations about human tissue. I repeat the noble Lord’s explanation of the amendment:

“This amendment adds the origin and treatment of human tissue, including organs, to the list of matters about which regulations may be made by the appropriate authority, in the context that informed, valid, uncoerced and demonstrably documented consent may not have been given for the harvesting of such human tissue and organs.”


I find it hard to imagine when any state has power over its citizens that few other states share. I find it even harder to imagine how desperate and selfish people must be to buy these organs, knowing that their donors’ lives will certainly be blighted, or even lost, to feed such a market, which is the dark side of consumerism.

Human tissue and organs can currently be imported into the UK from countries such as China without traceability, documentation or consent, and there is widespread concern that forced organ harvesting is taking place. It is appalling that Falun Gong Christians are targeted as donors, although I hate to use the word “donor”, which suggests that the organ is freely and willingly given, whereas the evidence to the contrary is total. This amendment would urge the Government to introduce legislation to ensure that the UK is not complicit in this. I support my noble friend Lady Northover, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, who put his name to the amendment. If the Government do not support this amendment, will the Minister confirm that she will be prepared to look at bringing forward, on Report, a government amendment to stop this abhorrent practice?

[Lord Ribeiro (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I was delighted to add my name to the amendment, so ably introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The Human Tissue Authority code of practice refers to the EU tissues and cells directive, which requires importers of donated material to have a

“detailed description of the criteria used for donor identification and evaluation, information provided to the donor or donor family, how consent is obtained … and whether the donation was voluntary and unpaid or not.”


During my career as a surgeon and a urologist, I supported transplant teams to harvest organs from patients who had requested that their organs be used in the event of their death. In every case, informed consent was obtained, and relatives were in agreement and consented to the procedure. One cannot be confident that such arrangements pertain in relation to donor parts used in transplantation in China and elsewhere, particularly where the donors are likely to be prisoners.

Advice that I have received from the Royal College of Surgeons notes that, sadly, the issue of UK patients travelling overseas for transplant surgery is not confined to China and is known to occur also in Pakistan and India. A considerable number of UK patients have undergone kidney transplantation from living donors in this way. For the report mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, Sir Geoffrey Nice met with the Royal College of Surgeons to discuss the allegations relating to China. It found the allegations alarming and the evidence concerning. We know that, in China, patients can receive organs within a matter of weeks. Heart transplant surgery can be bought in advance and, according to data collected by the China Liver Transplant Registry, the percentage of emergency, compared to non-emergency, liver transplants is far higher than one would expect. During his investigation, the BBC journalist Matthew Hill was offered a liver for $100,000 by a Chinese hospital, at very short notice. Patients in the UK would struggle to achieve this with a waiting time of several months.

According to experts, an estimated 60,000 to 90,000 organ transplants are happening in China each year, yet China’s voluntary donation system was only established in 2013. Quite recent data, from June 2020, shows that 2,127,955 people have registered as organ donors in China. That is a significant increase on the figure in 2014, which was 22,660. Is it a coincidence that the UK signed the Council of Europe Convention against Trafficking in Human Organs in 2015 and that, in the same year, the Chinese Government introduced legislation that rendered illegal the use of executed prisoners as organ donors? Contacts in the transplant society in the UK believe that this legislation was introduced in good faith and that any such practices that continue are illegal and without official sanction. I hope that that is the case, but the perception is that these practices have not ceased completely. It is the view of some UK transplant surgeons who have visited China, as I have, for transplant-related meetings, that large, prestigious hospitals practise within the law. However, illegal practices do occur and we should use this amendment to send a clear message to the Chinese Government that they must make greater efforts to stamp out the illegal practices that tarnish the reputation of their country.

We have a moral and ethical obligation to investigate UK patients who receive transplants in China, as identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and to clearly identify the source of the transplant organs. That is doubly important because, if complications occur, it will be the NHS that has to pick up the pieces.

Finally, it would appear that, although the UK has signed the Council of Europe convention on organ trafficking, we have yet to ratify it. Will my noble friend undertake to explain why this has not been done?

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[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 97 in the name of my noble friend Lord Kakkar, to which I have added my name. Before I do so, I have a comment in response to an important question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, which my noble friend Lord Kakkar answered. How do you test the effectiveness of a device which is an implant, and is likely to remain in the body permanently? This is opposed to implants such as pacemakers—as I alluded to on Monday—where, in one example, a device was unsatisfactory after having gone through testing, but was then implanted in 1,400 patients before its faults were clearly recognised. In that case, it was possible to remove the device, and put in one which functioned better. The testing of an implant which is likely to be permanent must be more rigorous, in terms of its tissue reactivity, in the training it will require, and in the possible harm it can do. This is particularly true for things like mesh that are likely to be embedded into the tissue. People claimed that that mesh was safe because it had been used by surgeons for years for hernia repairs. As I said on Monday, I have never used mesh for any of the surgery I did, so I do not know its performance. The question of the noble Baroness is quite right: it does not mean that we do not have to progress with finding new medical devices which would be effective; it means that we need to ask significant questions, depending on the device we are talking about. I may not have answered her question, but I have tried to identify ways we might do that.

My noble friend Lord Kakkar has made a very important point about the need for medical devices to be tested for their effectiveness in the functions they are supposed to provide prior to their being granted full market approval. Generally, the design of a medical device is regulated by its essential principles of safety and performance with respect to its design and construction. Less attention is paid to its clinical effectiveness throughout its expected life, whatever that might be. Medical devices play an important role in enhancing patient quality of life, but there is a need for improved methodology to obtain evidence for their safety, performance and efficacy. The UK, with its strong research base, and with the NHS at its core, is well placed to generate the high-quality evidence needed. Guidance is needed to generate, implement and produce the evidence required to foster innovation. Adopting engineering principles of continuous monitoring, reporting of accidents or near misses—similar to post-market surveillance of medical devices—is important. In developing medical devices, dialogue between clinicians, manufacturers, and end users—the patients—to identify which devices need to be developed is valuable, but not often followed.

While not as robust as a randomised control trial, observational studies are important in identifying rare, catastrophic and delayed harm. Furthermore, medical devices are less amenable to controlled trials, being part of a complex system of care, involving people in other systems. The UK has an opportunity to develop specialised medical device trial centres and clinical networks to oversee early to late-phase trials. That initiative would benefit patients and put the UK in a lead position to develop safe and effective medical devices.

The Royal Academy of Engineering and the Academy of Medical Sciences, of which I am a fellow, have much to offer in such an initiative. With his amendment, which rightly promotes the requirement that medical devices should demonstrate their clinical effectiveness prior to a full market authorisation licence, my noble friend Lord Kakkar has also provided an opportunity for the UK to develop leading-edge medical device regulation, and be a place for developing safe and effective medical devices.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, made some telling remarks and asked some searching questions. We support the amendments in this group relating to the granting of licences and the processes of clinical trials. They aim to improve patient safety, as the granting of provisional licences will allow more information to be available on devices and medicines.

Amendment 84 is intended to probe the various thresholds for medical device trials. At present, new devices deemed to be “substantially equivalent” to something already on the market are certified as safe via a notified body and can go on to be used quite straightforwardly. In contrast to standards for introducing new pharmaceutical products, data from robust clinical trials are not required. Delays in the introduction of innovative treatments and medical devices should be avoidable. We should, and could, become a key player in the world market.

Safety is always paramount and the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to develop rapid, two-year, provisional MHRA licences is a good innovation. Start-ups would welcome these moves.

The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, spoke about hip replacements. He made some helpful remarks about registries. I was a trustee of an organisation called Orthopaedic Research UK, which was left a considerable amount of money by a wealthy orthopaedic surgeon with a view to fostering innovation in orthopaedics. Research scientists, doctors and start-ups are able to bid for funding on projects to aid orthopaedic research, with a view to taking a development to market. The amendments in this group will help researchers working on these projects, as will the granting of two-year licences on these devices.

Devices certified through this process are not tested to establish whether they deliver significant patient benefit. Rather, the system only establishes that a device is not unsafe and that it fulfils its intended function. Meanwhile, even when clinical trials are required, because a device is deemed sufficiently different from what is on the market to merit that, the rules around how that research is constructed are looser than for medicines. These are practical, useful measures.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

This has been a wholly positive and helpful debate, and I hope that it will lead to improving the Bill and the future of this issue. I shall speak briefly to the amendment in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins. It would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about notification and reporting requirements for medical device clinical investigations, as is currently the case for medicines. It is about the equality of treatment between medicines and medical devices, so it is very straightforward.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt, who I suspect made a double speech, his own and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and it is all to the good that he did. I again register the protest that we are losing experts and speakers because of the clash of timetabling.

All the amendments in this group are positive amendments about how medicines and medical devices reach the market, how the UK can build and maintain a leading position, and the regulatory framework required to support that. Amendment 97, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Kakkar and Lord Patel, does that, and I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, made some very interesting points about how it might best be achieved. The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, were quite right about putting patient safety at the heart of this and having higher levels of evaluation—the term used by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, got straight to the heart of the issue, which is that we need to get together to work out how best to take this issue forward at the next stage of the Bill. I look forward to what I hope will be a positive response from the Minister and then to the Government taking some action.

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[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, set the tone for this debate. I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath; his concerns should concern us all. We are entering new territory. We have worked across an EU framework for a long time and are now going to be on our own. We need to work out policies and procedures to deal with this new landscape, which of course is what we are doing today. However, we will still have to work with Europe, if not within it.

I understand that we are to leave on 31 December, but we really must not bury our heads in the ground. Regulation will be key; mutual recognition is important. I think the Minister has referred to mutual recognition in the past. I wonder if he or the noble Baroness, Lady Penn—I am not sure who will be summing up—could clarify that issue. We need easy and ready access to new medicines, early-phase trials and the willingness of the NHS to take them up. There is also the role of NICE. We have not looked at mutual recognition of standards, but we need to share information with international partners. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones asked a lot of pertinent questions. If the Minister does not have these issues in her brief, perhaps we might have either a letter or a meeting, because these are really meaty issues that we are discussing.

Amendment 27 would make provision to enable the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency to work with other regulators to minimise delay so that the UK can get early access to new medicines. Amendment 45 would require the Secretary of State to publish their proposed regime for a list of fees in respect of human medicines. What is the timescale on that? It would be interesting to see this fees regime alongside the old regime that we will be leaving.

Government Amendments 48 and 66 relate to the disclosure of information in accordance with international agreements. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones had something to say about that. Interestingly, although I am not absolutely clear, Labour’s Amendment 118 aims to protect medicines and medical devices regulations from any form of control from outside the UK in the event of a trade deal. This goes back to legislation that we dealt with, which I think we ended up renaming the international health Bill. We need to be clear, coming up to the end of the year, about what a trade deal might actually look like and what things would look like without a trade deal. Those are my reflections on the amendments.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

This is a slightly strange time to be making this speech, because it seems likely that we will not hear the Minister’s speech until we reconvene in a week’s time. If that is the case, I would like to register that I will probably want to ask a question after the Minister speaks, if that is where we finally end up.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Hunt for the way in which they spoke at the beginning of this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, went into a level of detail about the effects of the government amendments that was absolutely right and accurate. It also lies at the heart of my remarks. I need to make it clear from the outset that we on these Benches regard the government amendments to this part of the Bill as dangerous, sloppy and possibly sinister. The Minister must be aware, because we have discussed it with the Bill manager, that we regard the use of “a person” in Amendment 48 as something that should set alarm bells ringing right across the House.

I am getting a feeling of déjà vu. The Bill mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, started its life as the international healthcare arrangements Bill and ended it as the European Union and Swiss healthcare arrangements Bill, because it cast its net so wide. One of the giveaways is what the Government say in their description of their amendments:

“This new Clause makes clear that information held by the Secretary of State or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland in connection with human medicines can be disclosed, subject to certain restrictions, to persons outside the United Kingdom in order to give effect to a relevant international agreement or arrangement.”


The same explanatory statement follows the other government amendments in this group and tells us what the purpose of these amendments is. This underlines why we on these Benches will ask the Delegated Powers Committee to have another look at the Bill. These amendments fundamentally change the purpose of the Bill. It is not the same Bill that it looked at when it did its first report in July.

One of the reasons why this discussion—I am afraid I do not use the word “debate” about these proceedings—is so important is the read-across to the Trade Bill, to which I moved an amendment in Grand Committee a few weeks ago. It is about scrutiny and accountability. Amendment 45 is about fees: accountability and transparency and setting the level of fees. I would like the Minister to address that issue, which is fairly straightforward.

Amendment 118 in my name concerns international agreements. In terms of its policy content, it is probably the opposite of government Amendment 48. There is a policy clash here and I need to be clear that I am very unhappy about the fact that we have to agree to amendments that are unacceptable to us because of the time problems that the Government face on the Bill. We will be looking very carefully indeed at these sections of the Bill and will be seeking to amend them at the next stage.

The read-across we need to look at is to do with the trade negotiations with the United States, the EU and elsewhere, where we have to have systems of transparency and scrutiny about trade deals. The House of Lords passed an amendment to a previous Trade Bill on parliamentary scrutiny, but the Government have not made good their promises to give Parliament a say in new trade deals. I am concerned about the threat to our NHS and public health from these amendments, and about the misuse of information. We are concerned that, at present, Parliament does not have adequate powers to guide and scrutinise either the trade negotiations or the issues that will arise out of the Bill. We will need to look at this very carefully when it moves to the next stage.

Covid-19: Test Results

Baroness Jolly Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am not sure that I can answer the false premise. Actually, test and trace has enormous achievements—the isolation of 1 million people who would potentially have spread the disease is the most glaringly obvious—but we are here to talk about turnaround times and there, I completely accept that the current performance is not where it should be. I have sought to explain the reasons for that, and the enormous increase in capacity in the last 60 days. I have also sought to explain the measures we are putting in place to mitigate that. I am confident that those measures will be successful, and I am happy to report back to the House on them

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, South West Water and Plymouth City Council have been co-operating in the testing of wastewater across the city to determine the strength and location of Covid outbreaks. What guidance has Public Health England given to local authorities on this, and what analysis has it done on this sort of testing?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right to cite the use of wastewater analysis. The innovations and partnerships team at test and trace has a programme to look at precisely that method. We are particularly interested in using targeted wastewater analysis at schools and in social care in order to promptly identify the presence of the disease. We are looking in particular at technologies that have already been trialled in Italy. The trials are extremely promising, but I would be happy to make that connection between South West Water and the relevant team so that their knowledge is usefully used.