Children and Families Bill

Baroness Hughes of Stretford Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand what the Minister has done with these amendments, and I welcome the fact that we finally have recognition that, as the noble Lord, Lord Nash, admits in his letter of 31 January, there is an individually owned duty to provide services to disabled children where they are assessed under Section 2 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act. I also recognise that through this amendment—theoretically, anyway—the assessed social care needs for disabled children will be met under the existing duty. The amendments will mean that any social care provision which a child or young person is entitled to receive under that social care legislation must be included in the plan.

I had intended to ask the Minister some questions, and it is good that in her opening remarks she put on record what I wanted her to clarify: that local authorities must—she emphasised the word “must”—decide whether a child is eligible for services under the 1970 Act, and must also decide what services the child needs. If they decide that a child needs those services they must put them in the plan—and, crucially, they must deliver those services. The Minister has already put that on the record.

I would like to make two more points. First, the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Nash, also says that he will set out clearly in the code of practice the social care duties that must be included in the EHC plan, and explain the duties to provide those services where they are applicable. Could the Minister say in her summing up whether there are particular social care services that must be provided—and whether there are some, therefore, that may not be provided? Is there a distinction there?

The second point is that in relation to the code of practice the explanation to the local authorities is crucial. As it stands, the Bill, even after this amendment, is a very complex way of framing the respective duties of health, education and social care to provide the services. I certainly would have preferred, for the sake of clarity for those implementing the Act, as it will then be, for social care to be included in Clause 42 rather than Clause 37; Clause 37 deals with EHC plans whereas Clause 42 deals with the duty to deliver the services. I think it would be helpful to local authorities to see very clearly in one place in the Act that all three elements of this new planning process—health, social care and education—have to deliver. Unless the duty on social care achieved by this rather tortuous mechanism is clearly spelt out to local authorities it may not be fully recognised by social workers. Will the noble Baroness comment on that? I welcome the changes.

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[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

My Lords, it is always understandable, in our relief at seeing positive improvements to the Bill, of which this is one of the most important—we talked about social care before—that noble Lords welcome them, and so do I. However, I am mindful of the persistence and doggedness that it took to get to this point not only here but in the other place. I do not want to take anything away from the change, which is very positive, but rewriting the history of the Bill as being one of consensus is probably a step too far.

I welcome the amendments that the Government have brought forward today and I understand the Minister’s desire to see whether mediation can be an effective alternative to a formal appeals process. I make no criticism of that, as it is entirely understandable, and the amendments that apply to mediation will make it available across the spectrum of health, education and social care.

I have three questions for the Minister: one on mediation and a couple on the review and pilots. I read carefully the amendments on mediation and particularly noted the requirement that the mediator must be independent of the agency providing the services with which the parent or young person disagrees. That point of independence is absolutely right and understandable, but can the Minister say how this will work in practice? One of the things that concerns me is that, if a parent or young person wants to contest, say, both health and social care elements of the plan, it is very important that they should have one mediator who is independent of both the NHS and the local authority. As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has just said, our debates around this issue have laboured the need for a single avenue of redress for families. That applies just as much to the mediation process as it would to the formal appeal process, as we were arguing.

I ask that question because there are of course separate amendments for mediation in health and in social care. I want to ensure that, when the time comes, which may be when regulations are considered, there will be the opportunity to consider this level of detail and to make sure that families are not relating to two or three separate mediators, plus the First-tier Tribunal, because in a sense that would not achieve the spirit that we sought in the debate on the issue.

My other points concern the review and the pilots. I welcome Amendment 33, which I think takes up the amendment that we tabled on Report about the need for this to be looked at in some detail. It may be three years’ time before we have the results. I hope that there are enough of us still around to see the outcomes of those pilots and the review to make sure that we can use the results productively. In that regard, can the Minister say whether during that time he envisages that there will be some kind of oversight of the pilots and the review process? Could there be some interim findings or representation from interested parliamentarians on some kind of review board or body, with sector representatives? He mentioned parents and young people as well. For us to approve this now and then wait three years is a long time to see what, if anything, is happening. Some oversight of that process would be very welcome.

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[Baroness Warnock (CB)]

Having put my name to the original amendment to remove the then Clause 70, perhaps I may also add my gratitude. This is a real step forward in the education of young people in custody—not just people with special educational needs, which most of them have in any case. In general, it is a landmark move forward, so I express my appreciation to the Government for that.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

My Lords, if you consider the amendments on young offenders that will have been added to the Bill in total when it is enacted and compare that to the position when we started—the complete exclusion of young offenders from any of the provisions on special educations needs—you can appreciate the enormous journey that has been made. I welcome that the Government have, in the end, listened to the arguments that were made by Members across the House. This issue has concerned many noble Lords on all Benches but I want to acknowledge in particular the expertise and leadership that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, brought to the issue, corralling us all together and making sure that we ultimately got the changes that we see today—which I very much welcome.

[Baroness Northover]

Noble Lords will know what a huge relief it is to any Minister when the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, expresses his pleasure at something we have done. I know how much he likes the word “must”, and I am extremely pleased to have been able to deliver this word to him. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Warnock and Lady Hughes. We are well and truly corralled for very good reasons, and I am very pleased that the noble Lord is content with where we have got to and with the current and future involvement of the Ministry of Justice. I hope that noble Lords will support these amendments. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for agreeing to lead on this issue from the Cross Benches. He has been exemplary in the way that he has taken this forward once the issue arrived in this House. I also thank him and the Minister for their recognition of my very good friend Paul Goggins, who is a great loss to the other place and particularly to the cause of improving the lives of children in care.

I am also grateful to my colleagues at the other end because it was very important for us to get cross-party agreement from the two main parties, the Conservative Party and the Labour Party, to the spending commitment involved here. I am pleased that we were able to get that, so that had the Government not agreed to this today we could have given the assurance that we would want to implement it. As the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, says, these amendments extend to a national provision the pilots initiated under the previous Labour Government. I am very pleased that we are able to do that because it will make a huge difference to a great many young people.

I have read the draft guidance and very much welcome the emphasis, which the Minister referred to, on the financial support that local authorities must consider in staying-put arrangements. However, I would also reflect on the fact that the references to any tax and benefit implications for the foster families perhaps need to be strengthened. Local authorities really need to help foster carers unravel any tax and benefit implications of a staying-put arrangement, particularly when they get financial support. The key will be in getting local authorities to implement this fully. Perhaps the Minister could comment on how the Government intend to monitor what is happening so as to know how many young people are being offered, and are taking up, the possibility of a staying-put arrangement and how well those are going.

This is the last time in what has been a very long Bill that I will be on my feet this afternoon. I was reminded earlier that it was July when we had Second Reading. I would like a moment on behalf of myself and my noble friends Lady Jones, Lady Morgan and Lord Stevenson, to make some thank yous. What is remarkable is the number of very substantial improvements made to the Bill during its consideration in this House, which has shown the House of Lords at its best. Despite the fact that many of the changes which we have agreed here had been proposed in the other place and rejected, the willingness of many Members across the House to work together in common cause on key issues has dramatically improved the original Bill, as we received it. On adoption, family justice and special educational needs there are now significant changes which are very welcome. There are new areas of policy as well, as we have been discussing this afternoon, on parent carers, the protection of children from smoking and so on.

There were some lost opportunities for which there was substantial but, in the end, insufficient support to carry the day, particularly on compulsory SRE and online child protection measures. I have no doubt that we will return to those because I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, is not going to give up her indefatigable campaign of online child protection issues. I look forward to supporting her in other opportunities.

While at times the pace of our considerations no doubt caused some concern for the Government, this was in no small measure due to the detailed scrutiny which Members were prepared to give to the Bill, with the time to discuss it and flesh the issues out. We were aided substantially by a wide range of organisations outside the House willing to help us to make the most of the opportunity that the Bill provided, and I thank them very much.

I thank all the Ministers and the Bill team for their willingness to meet us and to listen. They gave very generously of their time and I very much appreciate that. We had some good discussions, and obviously many of those bore fruit.

I also want to mention the Hansard recorders in Grand Committee. We stretched the normal time limits on a number of occasions and I was very conscious of that. I want to put on record that we appreciated their help.

I also thank Sophie Davis, who helps the opposition team in our office. She is terribly well organised, and I am sure that noble Lords who have had e-mails from her and the opportunity to speak to her have found that she is unfailingly courteous and very measured. She has been a great help.

Lastly, I thank the Ministers here today, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Nash, for their constructive approach and their willingness to bring forward changes that we have discussed. I think that many of us will have heard with regrets the noble Lord’s announcement on Report that he has no intention of remaining a Minister after the general election. One may think that after making such progress with this Bill, it would be rather a waste if this were to be both the first and the last Bill that he took through this House. I hope that he reconsiders. In any event, whatever he does, we wish him well. I thank both Ministers again.

[Lord Nash]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, for her kind remarks. It has been a pleasure working with her and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, over the past few months. I have never had so many compliments—certainly not so many back-handed compliments—quite so quickly. The noble Baroness might be interested to know that the draft of the few words that I might say after the final amendment said, “This is my first and last Bill”, and I found myself taking out the words “and last”, so you never know.

I echo the noble Baroness’s remarks about the noble Earl, Lord Listowel; it is in fact entirely thanks to his relentless determination on this issue that we have arrived at the point where we have today with the staying-put arrangements. I thank him for his time in meeting me and officials to discuss the matter and the clause itself. As I mentioned earlier, I would welcome comments from Peers on the draft guidance in the coming weeks, and I will take back the noble Baroness’s comments that she made today.

On the question of monitoring implementation, the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, made a comment about implementation. I have been saying in the department for some time now that I hope we are not just going to pass the Bill and retire to the sidelines; it is all about making sure that it happens. I just had a word with my honourable friend the Minister responsible for this field and told him that the noble Baroness had made the point again about implementation, and he said that perhaps she would like to come to our first implementation meeting. It is not my brief but I shall be there, and I intend to be at as many as I can get to. As everyone has said, it is about changing practice and ensuring that it actually happens.

On the point about monitoring made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, we will be monitoring the statistical returns from local authorities to assess the take-up of staying put. Also, the revised Ofsted inspection framework includes a new sub-judgment on care leavers that has a focus on accommodation, including staying put. Based on these sources of information, we will be able to identify whether any local authority is not fulfilling its duties, and will not hesitate to challenge those that are not.

We are continuing to work with sector organisations on the guidance to ensure that it supports the effective implementation of this important new duty. We are committed to doing more to support care leavers, and I believe that the proposed new clause is a crucial step forward. I hope that noble Lords will support it.