Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I have enjoyed what we are calling the bevy of ladies on the other side. Their intellectual prowess has left me stunned on my heels. Let me go into this amendment, which proposes that we create a disregard for the second earner in a joint claim. This proposal was raised in Amendment 52DB, which we have already debated, so I am going to be reasonably brief.

First, this is not a matter of principle. We acknowledge that it would be desirable to incentivise both members of a couple to work. However, we have limited funding and we have chosen to focus that on creating a strong incentive for at least one member of each couple to work, in order to limit the number of workless households. This is clearly a difficult choice. We have discussed these choices, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, with other departments on a regular basis, and we are very aware of links to other programmes.

Clearly, this is something that, if we had some money, we could revisit at a future point, but let me give noble Lords the figures. If couples who were both in work were entitled to an additional disregard of £700 a year, for example, the cost would be £240 million.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Could the Minister be very detailed in his costings? When he says an additional £750—

[Lord Freud]

I said £700.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Is that as an addition to the second earner?

[Lord Freud]

There was a question around that, so I will endeavour to supply all the information I possibly can. A sum of £700 a year in addition would cost £240 million; if the disregard were £1,000 a year, the cost would be £350 million. We simply do not have the money in our present envelope. There is no real difference between gross and net in those figures because they are below the personal tax threshold, so there is no tax effect to set off. We are doing all sums on a non-dynamic basis anyway, so there is not a dynamic effect. From the point of view of the architects of the universal credit, we would have liked to incorporate more dynamic effects, but there are certain other interests in the Government that take a very straightforward view of money.

Let me deal with the other issue—that making the lack of a disregard for second earners makes the universal credit bad for women. That is the underlying argument here and clearly one that would concern us very greatly. But it is clearly not the case. Universal credit has many features that will improve the position of women, most obviously in support for mini-jobs and childcare. We have a duty, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked, to look at the impacts of policy changes on a range of particular groups, including the impact on men and women, and we are satisfied that our policy here is the right approach and that we can justify the impact. That is why I was able to sign the ECHR statement for this Bill.

Our impact assessments and equality impact assessments show that women in general are more likely to gain than to lose from universal credit, that this is also true for lone parents and couples with children and that lone parents benefit the most in both absolute and relative terms from the likely increase in take-up.

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The second earners issue is therefore part of a much bigger picture that, overall, is very helpful to women. I add only that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed out that the trade-off between first and second earners is similar to that faced by the previous Government when they introduced working families tax credit in 1999. That also strengthened the incentive for couples to have one partner in work and reduced the incentive for both to take employment. I hope this explanation will allow the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 52C.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, I deliberately did not follow my noble friend after such a full, strong and powerful speech; however, my name is also on the amendment. I appreciate the dilemma that the Minister is in: there is a cash constraint and he is making policy choices. The last thing I would wish to see is a diminution in the earnings disregard for the first earner in order to vire it across to a second earner because you are trying to see which poor people would be most hurt in that situation. It is a dilemma and I would not wish to go down that road.

The Minister is right to say that under universal credit the position of women improves for the most part. However, the position of partnered women does not. The distinction my noble friend was drawing was about the situation of partnered women, not women overall. All the moves between in-work and out-of-work benefits, the 16 hours and the extra disregards for lone parents are welcomed, but we are now talking about partnered women and much of the noble Lord’s response dealt with questions that we did not raise.

Let me refer the Minister to page 6 of his own document. This is what happens if Bhavna also starts work for 10 hours a week at the national minimum wage of £6 an hour: she brings in an income of just over £60 a week, and the household has a net gain of just over £20 a week. So she earns £60 and the two specific examples given by the Minister show that she has a gain of £20. As my noble friend emphasised repeatedly, this excludes any childcare costs. I have been doing some sums. If her children are not of school age and she is using a child minder at £2.40 an hour per child—which she may well do—and allowing an hour for travel at each end of the 10 hours that she is working part time over the course of two days, I reckon that, out of that £20 gain—her 30 per cent—her childcare costs would take up £19. So she is left with £1, out of which she has to pay her travel costs, let alone extras such as lunches, food at work, different clothes and so on. Some £19 of that £20 could go on the existing childcare costs, leaving £1 for travel—in other words, she would be out of pocket if she worked. That is based on the Minister’s own figures, and that is what concerns us.

My noble friend was surely spot on when she said that to have a second earner in the family is protective of all family forms. This is what matters; it protects the existing family. We know a larger family will still remain below the poverty line on minimum wage unless you have a second earner in play—and it is the second earner who takes a working family out of poverty. It protects the family and it also protects the woman, should anything happen to her in future.

While I accept the fact that the Minister is up against cost ceilings—I certainly do not wish him to stop viring earnings disregards between the two members of the family—it would help the Committee if he was able to give an undertaking that this will be a priority and that any additional resource would be aimed towards readdressing the issue of the earnings disregard for the second earner. Believe me, all the gains that he is offering, in terms of mini-jobs and so on, are going to be wiped out because of the tougher treatment of childcare costs and the fact that, as a result, it will not be worth your working, even though the Government claim it is.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I want to save the Minister getting up twice, as I want to ask him a question on a similar point. I have been trying to wrestle with some of the briefing that has come in on this issue. Can he answer two simple questions? Is it possible for somebody to face MDRs of higher than 100 per cent if they are, for example, a second earner with childcare costs? Secondly, if somebody would actually be worse off in work, would they still be sanctioned for failing to do it?

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[Lord Freud]

I will not give that kind of assurance to noble Lords. This is clearly—

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

You could, you know.

[Lord Freud]

Stop teasing me. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made the point about VAT; there is clearly a missing element there, and I acknowledge that there is a difference between the gross and the net.

I thought I had answered the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on talking to other departments. Yes, we are talking to BIS. As to the FT story: as you would expect me to say—it is something between, “Pick the normal stuff”, “I do not comment on press articles” and, “It is a matter for the uprating Statement”. Pick any one of those you want. I am not answering the question. [Laughter.]

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I congratulate the Minister on his nimble footwork; it was very impressive. However, what happens to Bhavna in this situation, where her childcare completely mops up £19 out of her £20 addition to the family earnings?

[Lord Freud]

In this example, there is a 65 per cent taper. Thereby, extra earnings produce an increased income of about £20. The effect of childcare costs would depend on the amount of the childcare costs. Under our current proposals, the parent is clearly expected to meet 70 per cent of allowable costs, and the state will cover the rest.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I understand that. I thought that that was exactly the point I made. The question was regarding the result of that calculation. She earns £60 and adds £20 net after universal credit, and £19 of that will, on any reasonable estimate, go on her share of childcare costs. That is before you take travel costs into account. Why work?

[Lord Freud]

We are going round in circles. We all know the point that is being made. We all know the reality of the iron triangle. We are wrestling with it. This is what we can afford to do right now. Some people may be caught in such a position and we make the point that some people will have higher MDRs—a lot will not. As we improve the position when we have funding, and have proof of the dynamic benefits that may free up main funding, we will be able to apply them. However, this is the best we can do right now. I would love to do more, but I cannot find any more money.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, Amendment 52D would take a power to disregard the full amount of any pension contributions from the assessment of both single and joint claimants’ income. In the universal credit White Paper, we set out our intention to disregard 50 per cent of contributions to an occupational private pension from the income assessment. This balances our commitment to encourage pension saving with fairness to the taxpayer and it is the current treatment in the benefits system. It is true that in tax credits 100 per cent of pension contributions are ignored, but tax credits are based on gross income. This is not therefore directly comparable with the 50 per cent disregard in the benefits system.

In addition to the disregard, universal credit claimants will also have tax relief on their pension contributions. This means that for each pound that goes into the pension pot of an employee who is a basic rate taxpayer and in receipt of universal credit, the take-home income is reduced by only 34 pence after minimum employer contributions, tax relief and increased universal credit payments are taken into account. It would cost approximately an additional £200 million a year to move from 50 per cent to a full disregard. While this would no doubt be welcomed by claimants on low incomes, not all taxpayers who do not claim benefits have the advantage of a private or occupational pension. We must therefore take a balanced approach to the disregard of pension contributions, and we believe that 50 per cent is the appropriate level.

Pension contributions are disregarded from the income assessment in tax credits. We have taken the view that this is one of several areas in which tax credits have been excessively generous to claimants when the position of the average taxpayer is taken into account.

On the operational point, we are already operating a 50 per cent disregard, including a payment towards personal pensions. The rules will operate in a similar way to the way that they do now, but clearly we will not be able to do all this through RTI, so there will need to be some direct reporting.

Picking up the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, made about what we are doing for asset accumulation, I can point to a series of measures that the Government are taking in that area, not least the support being provided to lower-income houses to purchase a home. In universal credit, households are able to save up to £6,000 with no impact on the universal credit award. I should point out that an average household with a working-age adult has average savings of £300.

The convention is that “two Baronesses” makes “noble Lords”. If I made a mistake during debate on the previous amendment, I was possibly slurring my “s”. In this case, I can ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I was slightly taken aback by the Minister saying that he thought 100 per cent disregards in tax credits were regarded as overgenerous, when at the same time no mention is made of what we are paying in higher-rate tax relief. Currently, out of the £26 billion we spend on tax relief, some £8 billion to £10 billion is going to higher-rate tax relief. If we follow the Minister’s line, apparently we need only to incentivise the rich to save; the poor are being overincentivised and we are being overgenerous.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I think I am caught being slightly puzzled. I was strongly under the impression that pensions were removed from the higher rates of tax relief. I hope I am not wrong on that.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

The noble Lord is wrong.

[Lord Freud]

On that basis, I am probably the wrong person to interrogate on this matter.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

There is a limit on how much of your pot can attract higher-rate tax rates, which is the £50,000 figure. There have been some changes, but £50,000 of pension contributions is still tax free.

[Lord Freud]

I think we are now into the realms of minutiae. This has been subject to a substantial change. It was unlimited. Noble Lords can see that my personal interest in this is not as great as it might be. One can make comparisons and political points all over the place; let us stay with the business in hand.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am well aware of the work of my noble friend Lady Thomas on this, although perhaps not quite as well aware of it as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Clearly, the amendment is intended to improve the position of disabled people on benefits who participate in service user groups. Changes in the regulations to do just that were made towards the end of the last Parliament, and universal credit will carry these forward. Nothing in universal credit will worsen the position of participants in service user groups.

Looking purely at the earnings element—the fee element, not the expenses element—the structure of universal credit will improve the general position for participants. The earnings taper will ensure that any fees which are beyond the claimant’s earnings disregard will still make the claimant better off overall. The removal of the 16-hour permitted work rule and the personalised conditionality regime will see to it that the claimant will not fall out of the benefit if they undertake a modest amount of voluntary or paid activity. That is as far as the earnings element is concerned.

The amendments to the social security regulations made in 2009 exempted individuals covered by the definition of service user from the notional income rules and ensured that any expenses they received would be disregarded in the benefit calculation. I think that all parties welcomed these improvements when they were introduced. Therefore, my noble friend’s amendment seeks simply to build on those 2009 changes.

This is a matter for regulations, and there will always be scope to make further changes where these are needed. However, we need to ensure that any definition is clear and can easily be applied by administrators. The current definition was drafted on that basis. Like the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, I am not convinced that it will be feasible to broaden the current definition in the way proposed by the amendment, but I am very pleased to meet my noble friend on this, as she requested, and I think that we shall be able to get this right.

In the current regulations, the definition of service user is limited to consultation for specified purposes. In all cases, the consultation with service users is required by law. The intention here was to avoid extending the easements to the activities of commercial enterprises. We also need to ensure that benefit claimants are not able to deprive themselves of regular earnings and so remain on benefit while operating as consultants to research bodies. These protections remain valid from the Government’s point of view, so any new regulations need to protect the Government in some of these areas.

On the general question of expenses, we will apply the same disregards in universal credit as in the existing benefits. We would not want claimants in work to see their universal credit fall as a result of their receiving payments as reimbursement for expenses that they have incurred solely in carrying out their job. To do so would reduce the incentive to take a job, which would undermine the core purpose of universal credit. Briefing note number 9 was intended to clarify that work-related expenses could continue to be disregarded in the same circumstances as apply now.

We also intend, as now, to exempt reimbursement of expenses made to volunteers who give their time to charities and voluntary organisations from the calculation of claimants’ unearned income.

I hope that this account will reassure noble Lords about our intentions for the treatment of expenses in universal credit generally. I think that there can now be a process of refining and enabling service user groups to make their valuable contribution in the fullest possible way, and that is what I shall be aiming to do with my noble friend when we meet. However, these are not matters for primary legislation; they are matters to get right in regulations. That is what we will be aiming to do and I hope that, on that basis, my noble friend will be content to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister a question. I chair a housing association, as I have declared previously, and we pay a very modest sum per year to our tenant board members. One of them was on disability benefits and preferred not to take the very modest emolument because of the interaction with his disability benefits and the problem that he would have of resuming them as and when the emoluments ended. However, because he could have drawn that emolument, it was assumed under benefit rules that he had done so and he could not make that move. I ask the Minister to look at this point. This was, after all, a sort of charitable housing association and he was stuck.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I will look at it, but I am not sure I need to study it very hard. As I understand it, the fear of that individual is that if they earn too much money they get taken off their benefit structure entirely. Because they are earning too much, they are outside the disability benefit structure and they must therefore get on another one and they then have a terrible problem. That does not apply under the universal credit. The worst that could happen is that the universal credit goes down in the period, reflecting the emolument, but they are better off overall. That acute fear of being left stranded goes. In that particular case, and many others like it, the desperate cliff-edge position which currently exists is not there under universal credit.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. He is absolutely right about that. I imagine that the Minister will reply that this is too narrow a definition of work but I do not want to anticipate what he wants to say. The more I think about it—this is not a formal Front-Bench view—the more I believe that we ought to be thinking about smoothing the path so that we do not have that cliff-edge, as we are doing away with cliff-edges for in-work and out-of-work benefits. Is there not something that we could do to create more of a continuum, so that these very difficult judgments would not have to be made?

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Dials not dichotomies.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Indeed. Perhaps I may finish off with a question. I think that earlier in our deliberations we touched on what would happen if someone sought to challenge the WCA determination, as well as concerns about the fact that their benefit would be withheld during that process. I do not know whether the Minister has anything further to say on that. I think that there was an exchange in the Commons on which I had a note on a piece of paper, which I have lost, but it seemed to give some credence to press reports that people were being actively discouraged from going to appeal. If that were the case, it would be an absolute disgrace.

I think that there is great merit in the amendment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and perhaps some other noble Lords, I would not accept it quite as it says. However, when someone says that a person should be in the WRAG group but they should be capable of coming out of it in three months or six months, there ought to be a test of what they would be capable of at that point and whether that would amount to work under this sort of description. I should be interested in the noble Lord’s comments on that.

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[Lord Freud]

It is clear that a lot of changes are going on and I am not surprised that people do not understand them all. One of the things that we have done means that claimants in the support group can volunteer to go straight on to the work programme, where there is substantial help for them to get back into work. That is one way in which we are helping people who may find themselves in the worst possible position to get into work. We have made a very straightforward mechanism.

I pick up the point of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. We are instigating a process whereby people, if they are in the WRAG with a prognosis, are asked by work providers whether they would like to come in at any point—I think at six months. They are then encouraged to volunteer for the process early. They do not move from the WRAG to JSA until there is another WCA. We are talking about a process here; it is a dial for these people, as the noble Lord said, but it has to be understood in the context of how the work programme operates as well as how the WCA operates.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister a couple of questions? The first is about Atos. I was slightly taken aback by his statement that he did not want GPs’ and consultants’ evidence going to Atos because they were the patients’ advocates and this was the proper role of the decision-maker. Behind this and other remarks that the noble Lord has made when talking about DLA, for example, is the belief that somehow there is an objective assessment that is to be much preferred to a “subjective” assessment—for example, the sort of diaries that disabled people are encouraged to keep when trying to determine what level of award they would get on DLA. Does the Minister accept the point that two people can have identical physical conditions but very different capacities for work by virtue of their education, mental health, family support networks and, frankly, the savings and income that they have behind them? That dowry of resource would allow someone in an identical physical situation to someone else to go into work when the other person could not.

The Minister seems to believe that there is something objective about this and that it must therefore be left with Atos because there is a sort of box-ticking going on here that is reliable. He believes that the GP, who has extended knowledge of the patient or applicant concerned, is somehow on the patient’s side and is a subjective advocate whose view should not be taken into account. I find that approach wrong. Why, given that Atos is medically qualified, should it not receive advice from other medically qualified practitioners who know the patient’s ability in certain situations of stress?

My second question has nothing to do with that and is about Croydon. From the sound of it, the Government’s Croydon centre is breaking the law of the DDA. Could the Minister follow that up?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I will follow up the Croydon situation. I was not aware of it, even though I was brought up in south Croydon.

Let me try to make this absolutely clear. The whole point of the assessment is to judge whether someone is functionally able to do the job, which is exactly what the noble Baroness was asking for. The point is that it can be done coherently and consistently by people who are experts in that function, whereas GPs and specialists are trained in diagnosis and treatments which are entirely different; it is not their job to see people and make those judgments day in, day out on a consistent basis. But that is what we are looking for. Atos Healthcare professionals are trained in disability assessment, which is assessing the functional effects of a person’s condition or disability. That is exactly what the noble Baroness is asking for.

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[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I declare an interest in regulatory and professional services, having chaired the Legal Services Consumer Panel, sat on the Board for Actuarial Standards, overseen insolvency practices and sat on the Bar Standards Board, the Pension Regulator and the Property Standards Board. So I have a long involvement with non-economic regulators who oversee the professional delivery of services. These kinds of regulators have a large role to play as they are very much about what we called raising standards—although the words used by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, when he talked about “driving up” standards may be even better. This goes beyond public services. That may be what is in front of us now but consumers are demanding this from a whole range of service providers. It has shaken some of the barristers who do not really like the fact that they have to conform to new consumer-set standards. But that is what the users of all services now want and that is what this kind of regulator provides.

I am less afraid of the idea of quangos—although I am sure that that is not a general view—but what these kinds of regulators do is to adopt codes of conduct; set good practice guidelines and minimum service standards; and then ensure that quality assurance by way of setting minimum training or entry qualifications, CPD requirements and the monitoring of services. That monitoring is not just about compliance, important though that is, but also provides a feedback loop so that lessons are learned, either for standards and the way they are defined and set, or for the way staff are trained, or, as was discussed this morning, to allow systems to continue to be developed in the light of the way the service is delivered.

This kind of standard-setting is particularly important in view of the ending of legal aid to assist complainants and users because the only other monitoring will be via this kind of organisation. This kind of regulator—for want of a better word—can identify whether particular groups are underrepresented in any category and whether all groups are being properly serviced and properly served. As the Minister has stated on a number of occasions, some decisions must be taken on a case-by-case basis—in-work conditionality is a particular example. This will involve tremendous discretion in the hands of thousands of decision-makers across the country, so clear guidance, good and consistent training and ongoing monitoring of decisions by some kind of regulator with authority will be crucial to ensure that the service is fit for purpose.

Unfortunately, the Government refused to accept our earlier amendment that the Jobcentre Plus side of the claimant commitment should be laid down. It is therefore even more important that this standard-setting will be open, transparent, raise standards and, most importantly, create confidence in the new system. This proposal has some merit. I am not sure whether or not the formula will achieve it, but we look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, perhaps I may make one brief point. In common with others around the table today, I have had long and—I hope—harmonious working relationships with DWP staff, who have been almost universally helpful, constructive and anxious to take policy forward. However, I believe I am right in saying that in the DWP, more than in any other area of government, staff often start work in benefit offices at the age of 16 with fairly low-level qualifications. Like the police force, this is a field where one can go up through the ranks. The Civil Service is very good at in-service training and so on. However, this is nevertheless an area where a great deal of responsibility is delegated, rightly, to staff at EO level, many of whom have come up through the ranks. Certainly when meeting and discussing policy development with them, it was always clear to me within a few minutes where their education had effectively stopped. As a result there was, in some cases, a real issue about driving up standards and trying to professionalise the service. Nothing that I say should be taken as criticism. It is clearly obvious that in benefit offices staff may very well start at 16, 17 or 18 rather than go through higher education, particularly given that higher education has only recently become more widely available to young people. However, junior staff at the DWP, more than in any other field of Government that I am aware of, are taking key decisions affecting the well-being of hundreds of people and need professional support, training and the continual driving up of standards from the department.