Iraq

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, it seems to me that barbarism is not necessarily unsophisticated or uncalculated. Can we be sure that what so appals us is not in part calculated to provoke a response so that we can be accused of escalating the crisis? Our military intervention may be laser-like and surgical—like others, I am not wholly confident of this—but it may be that the brutality is both more sophisticated in its psychology and more carefully targeted than we have given it credit for.

My reason for speaking is, like others, to urge at least as much focus on something more positive, and to focus not just on the military response but on encouraging those who might be tempted to fight for idealistic reasons not to do so. I deliberately put that as a positive, not a negative, like the right reverend Prelate. I also urge that we should encourage those who have joined in jihadism back from that path, and welcome them back.

Of course, I am aware of the dangers in our own country. I am not, I hope, completely naive. I think I can confidently say that, since the Home Secretary on Wednesday attended a Making a Stand event with Muslim women. No one would suggest that she is naive. Idealism is indeed a powerful motivator. My parents had a friend who went to Spain and died there. However, there must be as many young men and women in the Middle East who are very much regretting their decision. I heard it put that many must be thinking, “Sod this for lark, I want to get back to uni and study botany”. I mention the laser-like application of air strikes—that is the aspiration—but some young Muslims complain of feeling targeted in a discriminatory way by the Prevent strategy. We cannot say too often that we know that “not in my name” applies to all but a very few Muslims. As they are very targeted indeed, I instinctively support the one-to-one programmes to challenge and mentor, which I understand the Channel strand of Prevent aims to do.

Perhaps I should mention, without expanding on it, the need to support Turkey, both for humanitarian reasons and for its own stability. It is not only a NATO partner but potentially an EU partner.

I come back to my theme. Air strikes in Iraq may be surgical but I hope that we can apply the healing aspects of surgery at home in the UK.

Immigration

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware, as I am, of the benefits of free movement enjoyed in the past, now and, I hope, in the future, by British citizens in the EU? Is it not a case of, “Do as you would be done by”?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is absolutely right. There is two-way traffic, both to and from member states in the EU. There are great benefits from the free movement of labour.

Woolwich and the EU Council

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

It is clearly the case, as the noble Lord says, that the Muslim community needs to be very closely involved in everything we do to address this problem. In many of these cases, particularly in the recent case of poor Lee Rigby, it is encouraging that the Muslim community has been very clear in its condemnation of what happened. I am not sure that it is within my gift, powerful though the Leader of the House is in theory, to convene a global gathering of muftis. I find it hard enough to convene a gathering of three or four Peers in your Lordships’ House. However, I am sure that my noble friend Lady Warsi will have heard the noble Lord’s point again.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, in Northern Ireland we made progress when our Governments were prepared to talk to people who engaged in violence. In order, as the Prime Minister said, to,

“tackle the threat of extremism”,

and “understand its root causes”, should we not be prepared to have conversations with those whose actions in this country, part of the UK, we in no way condone? Talking to perpetrators does not amount to endorsing their views or their actions, but we can learn.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made clear that in trying to address this issue he is keen to learn from a range of people. The Government already do that; they challenge people and can learn from that. However, I am not able to say whether we will be able to go as far as my noble friend specifically suggests.

Procedure of the House

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, most of what I wanted to say has been said. However, on behalf of myself and my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield, who cannot be here because she is unwell, I must at least put the points on which we agree as two of the signatories to the paper that was referred to. One is the importance of capturing the public mood, which is another way of saying that there are important things that we may miss out on debating in a timely manner. I, for one, do not want to ignore any chance to increase this House’s standing with the public. The other point is Back-Bench ownership of debates which, as she put it to me, is very much in the spirit of self-regulation of the House, as indeed would be the election of the members of such a group.

I will confine myself to one other point, which concerns the criteria. As has been said, this concerns a small number of occasions. Whoever takes the decisions about what is to be debated on these very few occasions, I understand that for balloted Questions the applicant must convince the clerks that the subject of a proposed topical Question is indeed topical. That may be relatively straightforward. However, the other characteristics—which include quirkiness, for which I have great enthusiasm— are much harder to deal with. I am sorry we cannot include the clerks in this debate and hear their views on how they would deal with that. It would not be a ballot; it would indeed be a lottery. To those of us who have been involved in the democratic process, as we all have, a ballot means putting something to the vote. We are talking about the distinction between the procedure going through the proposed, and a lottery or chance. I for one hope that the House will support a trial arrangement.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I have realised how different the focus of the working group chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, was from some previous working groups. We were rather less, although still quite a lot, inward-looking, and more about the “what”. When we were talking about the “how”, it was directed to outcomes and clarity. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord for so directing us.

The report was to the Leader of the House, and it was quite proper that he should have dealt with it as he saw fit, but we have been dependent on an individual Member of the House for securing this debate. There are no other mechanisms. Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Filkin. This is a matter of governance and, although there is no time today to go broadly on that, I shall mention one aspect.

The public seem to hold the House of Lords in high regard. This is not a point about composition. The greatest accolade that I often hear is that we talk sense. To unpack that, I think that it is about experience and skills—as in the title of the debate—including life experience, judgment and wisdom, if that is not all too pompous. The public expects those to be used, and so do our Members. It is notable how many inquiries are now held by all-party parliamentary groups, which meet a demand for the type of scrutiny and investigation that our Select Committees cannot do, and fulfil a need. There is something of smoke and mirrors about this, because they are not really parliamentary reports that are presented at the end of these inquiries, but they are received as such—and I am very glad that as Members we manage to do them.

If we do not use our Members and they are not fulfilled, they will not contribute, or at least as not as fully as they could. As Back-Benchers, they—or we, as I have always been very lucky in having some sort of role—are, in the jargon, stakeholders. That is why I support the establishment of a Back-Bench committee of the type mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, especially to contribute to the programming of topics for debate. It is a matter of transparency, effectiveness and efficiency. My preference is for more focused committees and, if necessary, a reduction in general debate, if resources go that way. Obviously, it is important to be able to follow through the committee work in debate. I am particularly pleased that we have now a structured post-legislative scrutiny committee on adoption legislation. I am lucky enough to be a member of it. I hope that there may be an opportunity to assess how it worked, when it has finished its work. Stopping to evaluate will be important, given that every Government have a predilection for passing legislation that is never implemented.

In every area of life, one has a responsibility to use one’s skills. It is a matter of responsibility and personal fulfilment, and we must find the best ways in which to do the right thing. I, too, look forward to completing the Goodlad business, to pick up the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, there was a remarkable degree of consensus in what was a very enjoyable series of meetings, and when there was not consensus, our Chairman tended to move us on with the comment, “Let’s see what it looks like on paper”. That is a line that I shall use myself on future occasions. I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, and the clerks who supported us so well and effectively.

As has been said, we covered a lot of ground, with underlying principles which boiled down to intelligibility and openness to the citizens whom we serve, and making the best use of what the House has available to it. That includes the experience, expertise and knowledge of our Members and the officials who advise us. We should use those to the maximum—not in a “random” way, to use the term used by the noble Baroness.

We criticise the Government—every Government—for not joining up, but so should we as a House take a joined-up approach. Cross-cutting committees are well overdue; we have some but we need more. Cross-cutting issues are the most difficult, so they are the most important to tackle. It takes two to tango, but the more we can work in conjunction with the House of Commons the better. We might think, too, about developing links with other spheres of Government. The Centre for Public Scrutiny—I am on its advisory board, I should say—put in evidence suggesting this.

We all say there is too much legislation, it is not good enough, and there is frustration all round. It must be very frustrating for those who are not Members of either House—stakeholders, if you like, and normal people—who have little opportunity for dialogue. We owe so much to the NGOs, individuals and all the organisations who contribute. Lobbying has a bad name, but what they do is more than poor lobbying and it is often very informative.

Public Bill Committees in the House of Commons have arrangements for taking evidence. From my reading of Hansard, I have often wondered whether anyone comes away from those completely satisfied, either Members or witnesses, because so much is crammed into such short sessions. I hope that in this House, we look at building upon the Commons experience in considering Bills which start here. The evidence from the Hansard Society talked about building on that experience and mentioned, for example, the role of the Chair, how witnesses are selected and how questions are chosen. All of this could be developed.

I join those who support the move to pre-legislative scrutiny, because it seems to me that at that stage positions are not as polarised, as inevitably they must be once the Bill has gone beyond the draft stage and is introduced to either House. By that time, defences are often up, over both substance and style. Of course, drafting is more than style, and a legislative standards committee might even—who knows?—advise whether legislation is necessary, which is something that post-legislative scrutiny might also reveal. I also support systematic arrangements for this.

Legislation is sometimes an occasion for grandstanding, but I think that we need to be very workman-like about it. The noble Lord the Leader of the House referred to the time taken. I think that the Grand Committee has a great part to play in this. The physical arrangements are actually very helpful for the work one has to do in Committee—there is a lot of paper—where one needs the modern physical arrangements. A lot of money has been invested in the Moses Room and on rooms in the Committee Corridor. Some years ago I took part in a Committee stage upstairs, and I think we should use the facilities better, including having more than one Bill in Grand Committee on one day.

One small recommendation is supported by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, who has e-mailed me to say he cannot be here but he thinks the report is superb—I will pass his e-mail on to the Leader. His recommendation is that a response that cannot be given at the time from the Dispatch Box should be printed in Hansard so that it is on the record, available and accessible.

The debates that we have in this House have a number of functions, and I support very much the proposal for a Back-Bench business committee to bring greater transparency and accountability. I welcome recommendations about making the work of the usual channels more accessible to the House as a whole, including the role of the Convenor of the Cross-Bench Peers and the chair of the Back-Bench committee, should we have one.

We can be less arcane in our working methods and our language. We can operate in a way in which the world outside operates in the 21st century without losing what is good and works well among what has accumulated and developed over so many years. I hope all of the recommendations will find their way into the way in which we work.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Harris, who is an experienced performer, both in this Chamber and in another Assembly, and therefore knows how to obfuscate to his advantage what is clear, that the position is clear. Consequential amendments from Amendment 9 will naturally be accepted and not be opposed by the Government. Amendments from Amendment 10, where they have not been pre-empted by Amendment 1, are to be debated. The noble Lord will of course look carefully, at Amendment 31 and others that follow. There are amendments on which we will continue discussions. I suggest that it is time to do just that.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I am sorry to intervene, but I do so also for the purpose of clarity. The debate that resulted in the vote was on the basis, of course, of the deletion of the provision for police commissioners and for the insertion of a police commission, consisting of two parts. That provides a similar basis for debating many of the amendments that we will come to, because it will allow a number of points to be raised similar to those relating to a sole commissioner. I was assuming, for instance, that although we will not, I suspect, consider a group of amendments on piloting the new arrangements, nevertheless there will be new arrangements which, in due course I will seek to argue should be piloted.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I was trying to say, but less succinctly, that debate continues. Of course the Committee has decided to silence debate on those issues that were within Amendments 1 to 8. I suggest that we continue the debate and allow the Chairman of Committees to call Amendment 9, so that we can agree to something.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Hamwee]

13: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, after “has” insert “, subject to section (Shadow operation)”

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 23, 28, 149 and 237. This group of amendments proposes the shadow operation of the new arrangement. It is as well that for the purposes of this argument I do not need to spell out which arrangement that might be. However, it seems that there will be some sort of new arrangement—whether it be a single commissioner or a commission, as my noble friend has proposed.

I tabled these amendments thinking of recent experience at local government level. When new authorities were formed—most recently some new unitary authorities —it was the normal arrangement that there should be a transitional period involving shadow working of the new authorities. The most recent involvement related to the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 that provided for implementation arrangements by way of orders dealing with transition. I accept that local government is more complicated—or I did, at any rate, until about 7 pm—but it seems sensible to allow for a transition from the current police authorities to the new structure on an authority-by-authority basis. This is not an argument for staging the transfer at different times.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness in mid-flow, but as I understand it, if her amendment were accepted we would, after the phrase,

“A police and crime commissioner has”,

insert the words in her amendment. If police and crime commissioners have just been removed from the Bill, what are the words that her amendment follows?

[Baroness Hamwee]

The police and crime commissioner has not been removed from the Bill, in that Amendment 31, which was in the first group, provides for a commission consisting of, first, a police and crime commissioner. I am sorry if the noble Lord feels that we should disrupt debate about something which I think it is appropriate for us to discuss in principle. As the Government have decided tonight that we should go on, it seems a pity to forfeit the opportunity to talk about how any new arrangement might come into being. I would like to continue. Clearly, several noble Lords would not like me to continue.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I would be delighted to hear the noble Baroness expand the argument—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I must put the Question before the debate starts. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could continue her introduction.

[Baroness Hamwee]

I thank the noble Lord. I have explained why I think it is still appropriate to debate the amendment.

At local government level, there was a format. For each new authority’s structural change order, there was an implementation executive which was adapted to local circumstances and literally shadowed the executive. There was preparation of an implementation plan, which included,

“such plans and timetables as the Implementation Executive considers necessary to secure effective, efficient and timely discharge of”,

the functions, in that case, and such budgets and plans as it considers necessary or desirable to facilitate the economic, effective, efficient and timely discharge of the functions after the relevant date. As I said, this is not the same as a local authority, but the noble Lord will recall, as I do, that when the Greater London Authority was formed, there was a period of shadow working—probably insufficient; it was a month or so.

Whatever arrangement we end up with—after the debate this evening, we are not without a proposed new structure—I am concerned that it should work as well as possible. Schedule 15 provides for transitional provisions. I am sure that the Government believe that everything has been covered in the schedule. Experience might suggest to many of your Lordships that it is hard to anticipate precisely everything that needs to be covered and that there is a risk in such a big bang approach. It is better, in my view, to allow time to consider the detail, because things always seem different once you are in the thick of things, when issues may be thrown up, than when you are anticipating them.

However much thought has been given to both the schedule and the transition board, which I understand the Home Office has formed—chaired, I think, by the police Minister—it would be wise to provide some arrangement which will allow for what may not have been anticipated in the legislation. I do not think that my drafting is of the finest order, but there is an issue here. I beg to move.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

I am puzzled, even in the context of this place, by the procedure being followed at present. Were we debating the amendment in the normal circumstances that many of us, at least, anticipated on the government side, I would oppose it because, as I said earlier, I support the view that we should have democratic accountability for police forces, although my preference is for elected police authorities. I am very disappointed that we cannot debate that issue as a result of pre-emption. That might have been an intelligent debate on a subject with some empirical evidence on which the House could have offered some wisdom to the Government. Indeed, I was beginning to feel a little like Baldrick, because I thought that I had come up with a cunning plan and, rather like Baldrick, had not anticipated that it might be effective on the odd occasion.

This debate reminds me of the childhood poem that starts, “I met a man upon the stair”. The man is the elected police commissioner but he is not there because, in reality, he has just been removed from the Bill by the vote. To put it another way, it is like the Mad Hatter’s tea party without either the Mad Hatter or the tea. I urge my noble friend Lady Hamwee to draw stumps in some way on this group of amendments so that we can in due course have a proper debate on the proper predicate. The predicate for the whole series of amendments that follows is that Clause 1(1) has been agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, it would help the House if we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I hesitate to say it but the House did hear from me some time ago, and I had actually got to the point when I had moved the amendment. However, as it is Committee stage, perhaps I can say another word about it, although it will be by way of repetition and the House is rather fuller than when I was last speaking.

I am not embarrassed at moving the amendment. I understand that there are difficulties relating to many other amendments, but clearly we know what we would be transitioning from—if “transitioning” is a word. What we are transitioning to appears at the moment to be a model that was not the model in our minds at the start of this afternoon as the likely outcome—

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Would the noble Baroness care to pose the question that the Leader of the House said could only be asked by her? What do the Government now believe we are transitioning to?

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, if I was not interrupted in the middle of the sentence, I would have tried to get to the end. As I said to the House about an hour ago, Amendment 31, which was in the group of amendments with Amendment 1 agreed by the House earlier, provides for a model of a police commission consisting of a commissioner and a panel. Amendment 31 is not my amendment, but I am reading what it says. Whatever model there is a transition to, it is perfectly proper and indeed required that there should be robust arrangements to ensure that the new model comes into being in a way that works. The point that I was making was that Schedule 15 provides for transition arrangements, but I suspect that although many of the implications of the transition will have been anticipated, it is unlikely that every single one will have been anticipated. That is not intended to be pejorative about the Government or the Home Office, as I would say it of any organisation dealing with a change of this kind. I take it from what the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, is saying that he agrees that some sort of transition period is not a bad idea.

That is all that I am suggesting that the House should consider. I have now said it twice, so I beg the House’s indulgence on that. The brief point is that we know the point and that, whatever the end game, it is not going to be that straightforward, so let us put in arrangements that we have learnt are needed from local authority experience, and use that experience to make that transition more smoothly than I believe the Bill provides for.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Browning)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Hamwee because this has been a fragmented debate and she has held it together well. If I have followed the various sections of her case, it is not unreasonable to say that there is a need for transition and, despite what happened to the structure of the Bill earlier tonight, when you move from one system to another—I am speaking in the generality—it is always good to have a plan that outlines the handover.

Where I have a little concern with the amendment is that I am not quite sure that the cost involved would not be prohibitive. My noble friend mentioned a year but we have not heard many details of what that would amount to in financial terms. It would have been helpful to the House—and perhaps to my noble friend—if we had had something more detailed for the House to consider and look at. However, Clause 99 and Schedule 15 cover transition and therefore there will be a further opportunity at later stages of the Committee for the House to consider this issue in more detail.

I hope my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment. Clearly this is a matter of concern to her but she will be able to enlarge upon her views when we get to Clause 99 and Schedule 15 later in the proceedings of the Committee.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I take the point about the year and the reality of such arrangements to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, alluded. It is a very fair point. It is also fair to say that I have not costed these arrangements.

My underlying concern is that as Clause 99 and Schedule 15 stand at the moment—although they may be open to amendment—they do not allow for any handover period at all. As I read them, they provide for a cut-off point and life changes at midnight, as it were. That is my real concern.

I was obviously not expecting to debate the amendment in quite the way that we have and it may be that, because of the circumstances, the Minister is not able to give more detail than she has. However, she is right. We will come back to the topic on Schedule 15. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 13 withdrawn.

Houses of Parliament: Access during Demonstrations

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we are trying to find a solution that will suit both the owners of Parliament Square. The problem is not so much one of ownership as the way in which the law is applied to the areas under different ownership. We believe that, under the proposals that we are about to publish, we will have an opportunity to solve the problem.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, concentration is inevitably on access to Parliament when it is physically difficult to get here, but access is important at all times, a view that I know the House is very enthusiastic about. Will the Leader of the House look again at the notices at the entrances to Parliament? They state:

“Trespass on this Site is a Criminal Offence. This is a protected site under Section 128 of the Serious and Organised Crime and Police Act 2005”.

Will he consider whether it is necessary to have such aggressive notices around a democratic place of work?

Public Disorder: Policing

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, on the first point, about being able to leave the area of containment, my understanding is exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said: that those who wanted to leave, and to do so peacefully, were given the opportunity to do so through Whitehall. Furthermore, I gather that many thousands of individuals chose to take that route.

On the second question, the noble Lord is quite right; something went badly wrong. That is why there is to be a security review. It is not my place to pre-empt or second-guess that review, but I am sure that it will take into account everything that the noble Lord said about his experiences in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, mention has been made of the number of officers involved. First, does the Leader of the House have any information on the numbers of officers who were brought in from forces outside London? Secondly, he will recall that, at the time of the G20 protests, there was a lot of concern that some officers were not showing their numbers clearly on their uniforms and therefore could not be identified. I understand that comment has been made that, although the number of officers was not large, some officers again could not be identified properly because their numbers were not displayed. Does he have any comment to make on that?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, as I said in the Statement, 2,800 officers were in and around central London on Thursday. I do not have the figures on how many of those originated from forces outside London but if I can find out I shall let the noble Baroness know. As far as ID numbers are concerned, she is entirely correct in her understanding that these should be uncovered so that individual police officers can be identified by members of the general public or anyone else. They should not be covered up, and there are standing instructions to make sure that those numbers are not hidden from sight.

Intelligence and Security Services: Treatment of Detainees

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords—

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords—

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

The inquiry will look at whether the UK was implicated in the improper treatment of detainees held by other countries that may have occurred in the aftermath of 9/11.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, building on the last question and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Lord, Lord Wright of Richmond, would the Government consider consulting on the precise terms of reference? We have seen on previous occasions that where matters fall outside the precise terms of reference of an inquiry, it can cause some problems. Secondly, can the Government be clearer about whether the Green Paper which is referred to will be part of the review of security which we know is in train?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not think that the terms of reference have been finalised at this stage, not least because the inquiry has not been set up. I am sure that what the noble Baroness has said will be taken into account. I have completely forgotten the other matter which the noble Baroness raised.

[Baroness Hamwee]

Is the Green Paper to be part of the review of security?

[Lord Strathclyde]

The Green Paper is a Green Paper. It will be published next year. Because of that, we have not yet decided what will go into it.