Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

We can also promote local authorities’ role in reducing inequalities in other ways. Again, I refer noble Lords to the outcomes framework, which takes a very wide view of public health and emphasises the need to reduce inequalities within that. If noble Lords look at the range of issues addressed within that framework, they will see that it is very clear that addressing these areas helps to address inequalities and that local authorities would not be carrying out their responsibilities appropriately if they were not seeking to achieve that.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

Will the Minister clarify what the sanctions are when there is a failure to co-operate? Examples of failure to co-operate are emerging already. While there is an outline duty in the Bill, what are the sanctions when that is not happening?

[Baroness Northover]

Local authorities have a statutory responsibility for public health. If the noble Baroness looks at the outcomes framework, she will see where different authorities have different responsibilities. In order to discharge those responsibilities, those authorities will have to work together, otherwise they will not be able to deliver those outcomes.

In response to Amendment 25, we entirely share the view that we must make use of the best scientific and other evidence available. However, we do not think that an amendment to the Bill is necessary to do this. If the Secretary of State is to carry out his duty effectively, he must necessarily obtain and use such advice.

I heard how the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, read out the amendment. It is clear that evidence must be sought without it being skewed in any way by any special interests. However, the way in which the amendment is drafted implies that the Secretary of State might not be able to consult legitimate professional organisations or stakeholder groups that may have relevant expertise and experience. I made that point in Committee. We agree, clearly, that the inappropriate influence of special interests would not be right, but that is not quite how the amendment is drafted.

The Government’s Chief Medical Officer will continue to provide independent advice to the Secretary of State on the population’s health. She will be supported in this role by a public health advisory forum that will bring together expert professionals and leading partners to assist her in providing advice and challenge on public health policy and implementation. I hope the noble Lord will be reassured about that. The use of evidence underpins all this and there is no intention whatever that it should be skewed in any way. I trust that that reassures noble Lords and that they will not press their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

I would be loath to give a definitive answer, not even having the advantage of officials in the Box to support me on this matter. However, I would have thought that infectious diseases are more appropriately a matter for the director of public health at local level. Presumably, at national level the Chief Medical Officer would have overall responsibility. However, the noble Baroness is right to imply that there is a connection with other functions and services where environmental health could contribute. I suppose that overcrowding would be an example of that. I take it that that is what she is referring to in this context. It is precisely in that sort of area that environmental health officers and others would have a statutory responsibility. There is no direct relationship potentially between, for example, a chief environmental health officer and infectious disease, but it would be sensible to have somebody with responsibility and oversight of environmental health issues of the kind that we are discussing working alongside the Chief Medical Officer. Water quality could in certain circumstances be another example of these issues. That discipline should be at the table, as it were, in a sufficiently authoritative way to contribute to dealing with issues of that kind and, we hope, preventing them.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, the question asked by my noble friend Lady Masham illustrates why we need to have a chief environmental health officer for England, as well as having that input in Wales, because by and large elements in the wider environment are determinants of health and play a much greater role in that regard than we recognise. Indeed, if the Marmot review and its aspirations are to have any effect on the health of the nation, we need to address environmental health much more closely.

I declare an interest in the specific areas of carbon monoxide poisoning and the problems contributing to that arising from the environment in which people live, and the link between the roads infrastructure and its air pollution and asthma and the underdevelopment of the lungs of children who live near major road junctions. The interplay between health and the environment in which people live is crucial. Health services on their own will not achieve improvements in health, particularly those outlined in the Marmot review. I hope that the Government will not tell us that the amendment is unnecessary, despite the initial typographical error in the reference to an “Evironmental Health Officer” rather than an environmental health officer. I fear that we will hear that the amendment is deemed to be unnecessary and that the relevant advice can be sought elsewhere. However, there is good evidence from other places that strong leadership from somebody who has a particular role in an area can bring about change and build the bridges to which I referred in the previous group of amendments.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I support the amendment. The significance of the chief environmental health officer’s role would stem from his or her being the national head of the profession. The enormous amount of work that local chief environmental health officers do will be familiar to anyone who has been involved in local government. Their work stretches from food standards in local restaurants right through to housing conditions, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. It is important that there is a clear mechanism by which the issues that are being highlighted and the points that need to be followed through by government action are fed up to the national level of government. If the Government resist this amendment, I would be interested to hear precisely what mechanisms they see as being available to local environmental health officers and local health and well-being boards to pass through the sorts of issues that can be tackled only at national level.