Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Thursday 3rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I once again reiterate: we have made very clear that there will be no return to a hard border in Northern Ireland and that we believe that it is only right that the people of Northern Ireland have a say through the Executive on whether they wish to consent to the proposed arrangements. I believe that that is right. I will not second-guess their decision, but we fundamentally believe that it is their democratic right to decide that.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

That is, with respect, no answer to the noble Baroness’s question. Her question was this: supposing, four years down the line in this endless cycle of economic and political uncertainty—very dangerous to the Northern Ireland situation—that Northern Ireland said that it did not want this, what would happen then? It is not clear. Is the EU to be told that it may not have the particular standard or regulation because a province of a country that is outside the EU does not like it? It seems an implausible proposition to put to the EU.

I think that we are at a rather solemn moment here. We are formally resiling from our 2017 commitment to full regulatory alignment now and in future on anything that might affect the peace process and the all-Ireland economy. We are formally resiling from our 2018 commitment to a future economic partnership based on a level playing field and common standards for environment, employment and social standards. We are deliberately tearing it up and highlighting that in the letter that we have sent to the President of the Commission.

On the first point, I have nothing more to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has said on Northern Ireland. It seems to me that he is absolutely correct. I would only say that I think that the corrosive effect on the Northern Ireland political situation of the continuing uncertainty of this four-year cycle is bound to be damaging. I note that all elements in Northern Ireland—business or political, apart from the DUP—appear to be of the same view.

My view is that, in Brussels, more attention will be given to the abolition of the level-playing-field commitment. I think they will conclude, rightly or wrongly, that we intend to challenge them by going for lower standards and deregulation, and I think that they will find that extremely alarming. I heard the Prime Minister’s Statement. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, is completely correct: the Prime Minister said that checks in the Irish Sea would be one way. In other words, he implied that standards in the UK would be below those in the European Union and applied in Northern Ireland.

I have four questions to ask the Minister. First, does she recognise how this would increase the difficulty of concluding, some years hence, even a bare-bones, Canada-style free trade agreement with the European Union? Does she recognise the likely effect on market access to our largest market for our services exports, which are our biggest exports? Secondly, how will trade deals with third countries work, given that the applicable standards for UK imports will differ depending on the final destination in the UK? Thirdly, does the Minister believe that the European Parliament and this Parliament could conceivably agree by 31 October to ratify a treaty based on these proposals? Fourthly, if not, what do the Government intend to do?

Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, there will be consultation during the process but, ultimately, the sponsor body needs to bring an outline business case—the final proposal with costings, details and decant options—back to both Houses. Both Houses will vote on it, and that will be the final decision. Today, we are doing important work to enable the detailed work that noble Lords are obviously incredibly interested in, but it will return to Parliament for a final vote.

To repeat myself slightly, once the sponsor body and delivery authority have been established in statute, they will design an outline business case that the sponsor body must bring back to Parliament for approval and which will set out the scope, timing, delivery method and cost of the works. Only once the outline business case has been approved will the sponsor body and delivery authority be able to commence the substantial works on the Palace.

I very much hope that noble Lords will support the Bill’s timely passage so that we can begin to undertake the vital and increasingly pressing work to ensure that the Palace of Westminster is fit to serve as the home—

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

This may be a question to which everybody else in the House knows the answer. Can the Minister tell us why neither the delivery authority nor the sponsor body will have a duty to have regard to heritage and preserving the fabric of the building?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I hope I made clear earlier that we have agreed that we will bring forward an amendment in this House that will look at putting heritage in the Bill. As I also mentioned, we need to balance that with making sure that any renewal and restoration of the building takes into account modernisation and things that other noble Lords are keen on—for instance, improving disability access and ensuring that it is open and available to the public who want to come. We will bring forward an amendment in this House during the passage of the Bill to achieve, I hope, that balance. On that note, I beg to move.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Thursday 11th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I say, the talks are constructive and the Government have been very clear that we want to deliver the benefits of a customs union with the ability to deliver a negotiated trade policy. That is what we believe we can achieve. We believe that it is a reasonable place to start and we will be discussing with the Opposition how we might achieve that.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I think that we have to try to rise to the level of events. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, was quite right to talk about the humiliating spectacle last night. The last time we debated a European Council, the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, spoke of his shame. I feel that. I think that we should all feel that. This is not the United Kingdom that we know. The twin cements of our parliamentary democracy are Cabinet solidarity and the ability to muster a majority in the House of Commons to deliver on the principal planks of the Government’s programme. Neither of these conditions seems to apply in the case of Brexit. In my view, that means that we need to think about a general election. I do not believe that the Fixed-term Parliaments Act was a good idea. The Prime Minister has demonstrated that it is possible to escape the Act’s confines. That is where I believe we should go. When parliamentary democracy is stuck, one should consult the people. I am disappointed that the Prime Minister referred three times in her Statement to the undesirability of European Parliament elections. What is wrong with consulting the people? That would be quite a good test of where public opinion now is on this issue. What is wrong with having a general election with a view to getting a Government who can take decisions and get them through the House of Commons? What is wrong with a second referendum? It is a long time since the first one. Why do we not check what the will of the people actually is?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I do not believe that there is any certainty that a general election would resolve the issues that this Parliament is grappling with. We need to deliver on the result of the referendum, which is to leave the EU. We have negotiated a good deal. There is a withdrawal agreement which can be agreed, allowing us to move on to discuss our future relationship with the EU. That is what we are focusing on. We are working across the House of Commons to try to find a way that this can be approved and we can start to move forward.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I agree with my noble friend. We are all working hard to achieve a deal, but the Prime Minister has made clear that if, following a series of votes in the House of Commons, as set out in the Statement, there is a vote to ask for an extension to Article 50, she will want it to be for the shortest time possible.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, it is good that the Prime Minister is now ready, à contrecoeur, to contemplate an extension. It is clear—and has been for some time—that an extension is absolutely necessary. However, she says in her Statement that an extension cannot take no deal off the table—and of course that is perfectly true. But she could and should take no deal off the table. If you listen to the voice of business and the nation at large, it is grossly irresponsible to play this game down into the last days and beyond. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, pointed out, we are looking to maintain the threat of no deal throughout the period of extension, however long that is. This cannot be right in the interests of the country.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend and he is absolutely right: although we are working towards a deal, which is what we want to achieve, all responsible Governments have to prepare for a range of contingencies. It is therefore absolutely right that we continue to prepare for no deal.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I am concerned by the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, about a negotiating advantage. It is a myth. I do not think you strengthen your negotiating hand by saying, “If you don’t give me what I want, I will shoot myself”. This is the “Blazing Saddles” argument, which worked very well for the sheriff in that film but does not work in Brussels. Perhaps I may say to the Leader that there is a third way of avoiding the disaster of no deal: to recognise the inevitable. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, said that we are going to need an extension under Article 50. I believe that that has become absolutely clear, for all sorts of reasons. I also believe that so shocked are our friends on the continent by the chaos and incompetence of our political system here, they would be perfectly willing to concede now that there should be a short extension, in order that we can get our act together.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said—the noble Lord alluded to this—an extension requires the unanimous agreement of all 27 member states, so there is nothing that the UK Government or Parliament can do unilaterally to secure it. They are unlikely simply to agree to extend Article 50 without a plan for how we are to get a deal approved. That is what we are working on.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord may recall that the British people voted to leave the European Union, and we are delivering that. In response to the noble Baronesses, I said we want to maintain co-operation with certain EU agencies. We will work with our EU partners over the coming months to explore the most effective ways to do that. If we do so and, depending on the level of the relationship, we have also said we will make a relevant contribution.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I echo the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan. I ask the Minister please not to oversell. This is not the load-bearing framework that the treaty authors had in mind. This is an aspirational text, neither prescriptive nor proscriptive. The negotiation will take place under Article 218, which means that, on the other side of the table, if one member state objects to something we want, that thing does not happen. Remember too that its scope is far wider than the Ukrainian or Canadian arrangement. The idea, as the Minister just said at the Dispatch Box, that we intend this treaty to come into force by the end of 2020 is absurd. That is unthinkable. It takes on average four years to negotiate these things. Then there is the problem of ratification and, if one country does not ratify, it does not happen. Please do not oversell. The only certain thing is that we face five, six or seven years of uncertainty.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Before our withdrawal in March, both sides will undertake preparatory work to enable negotiations to begin as soon as possible. There will be a clear programme to deliver the ambitious timetable, which will be set out in the withdrawal agreement, to ensure that both sides will use their best endeavours to bring into force a detailed future relationship. Because of the possibility that the noble Lord raises, we also have the backstop, the extension to the implementation period. There are best endeavours from both sides to achieve this ambitious relationship, which is in both our interests.

October European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I do not think it is appropriate for me to discuss the details of the negotiation. I am sorry that the noble Baroness disagrees, but we are at a crucial time and I do not think that my making statements from the Dispatch Box about some of these delicate issues will be particularly helpful. We want to achieve a deal, and I hope she understands that and would want to help me ensure that I play my part by not saying things that would get in the way of a good negotiation and a good outcome.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Will the Minister explain how our commitment to maintain full alignment with the rules of the internal market and the customs union, which now or in the future support north/south co-operation, the all-Ireland economy and the protection of the 1998 agreement, can be discharged by a short extension of the implementation period? That is a timeless commitment. Can the Minister quote any precedent for an EU negotiation of a wide-ranging association, including a trade relationship, with any third country that has been completed, ratified and come into force within three years?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I remind noble Lords that we do not intend to use either the backstop option or the implementation period extension. These are insurance policies. We are committed to achieving, and we expect to achieve, our new relationship with the EU by the beginning of January 2021. These are insurance policies, not things we intend to happen. The reason we are confident about achieving a good deal with the EU is that we are in the unique position of starting with the same rules and being in the same place: we are not coming from different situations, as was the case in other deals the EU put together. That is why we are confident, starting from being together, that we can come up with a good deal going forward that works for both of us.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that there is something a little surreal in the Prime Minister’s warning of the need for clarity about the future relationship. The 27, of course, warn her in their conclusions text that further clarity is required,

“as well as realistic and workable proposals from the UK as regards its position on the future relationship”.

I know what they mean and I do not know whether the Government can satisfy them by producing proposals at Chequers. I hope that, in producing these proposals, party solidarity and unity will not be the only concerns and there will be a little time to think about the national interest and negotiability. Does the Minister agree with the Prime Minister when she said it is not realistic to think that we could just replace European trade with deals in new markets? That was in April 2016. Does the Minister believe that Trump’s flouting of WTO rules and his sanctioning of UK companies makes it any more realistic now?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister has been very clear that we are looking to have a strong, sustainable and close economic relationship with the EU and continue with that, but we also want to be able to undertake an independent trade policy which will help to complement that and provide us with new relationships with global partners across the world.

Syria

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I strongly agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, said about legality and I think the Kosovo precedent is very apt. I support the Government on it. I also very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord King, said about the circumstances in which one can and cannot consult Parliament in advance, and I support the Government on that. My unease is precisely over not knowing what the future strategy is. When the Statement speaks about diplomatic action, I would feel happier if it told us about when we are going to get an embassy in Damascus. I would feel happier about the idea of our involvement in international discussions on the future if we stopped saying that the man who is actually winning the civil war must go before there can be any future settlement. It seems to me that we have parroted that slogan for too long, and we have to face the fact that we have not done very well. As many people have been killed in that country, where we have not intervened, as have been killed in Iraq, where we have intervened. We need to be a little humble about our approach and think about a strategy for real diplomatic engagement.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have made clear, this action was specifically focused on degrading the regime’s chemical weapons capability. Our position remains that we do not believe there can be a sustainable peace in Syria with Assad in power, and that we need a transition to a new and inclusive non-sectarian Government. We will continue to work diplomatically and, as I have mentioned a couple of times, we are attending a conference next week aimed at supporting the future of Syria and the region. We remain committed to the UN political process and will continue to use all the diplomatic means that we can to achieve a lasting peace in Syria.

Salisbury Incident

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Certainly, the Secretary-General has recognised this incident as of great concern to NATO. In fact, the NATO council published a statement today, saying:

“Allies expressed solidarity with the UK, offered their support in the conduct of the ongoing investigation, and called on Russia to address the UK’s questions including providing full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Allies agreed that the attack was a clear breach of international norms and agreements”.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

It is clear that the House welcomes what was said in the Statement about defensive measures. I certainly do—I think they are appropriate and proportionate. I am, however, surprised that so little was said in the Statement about deterrent measures. The one mention of sanctions was that we shall take powers to be able in future to do more on sanctions. Why are we not saying anything about sanctions now?

I have two questions. First, given that the EU sanctions on Russia following the Crimea and then the Donbass were surprisingly effective, and given that the Government played a commendable role in ensuring that they were introduced and then maintained, are the Government contacting the EU about sanctions against Russia over this crime committed in an EU member state? Secondly, given that the sanctions that do least damage to the Russian people and have most effect on Kremlin thinking are those on particular individuals and on where they put their money, can the Minister tell us what the Government envisage on that front, on targeted sanctions against individuals known to be close to the Kremlin?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Lord will know, the National Crime Agency will continue to bring all the capabilities of UK law enforcement to bear against serious criminal money. There is no place for these people or their money in our country. As I mentioned on Monday, we have now introduced unexplained wealth orders, which can be used to compel individuals to explain their sources of wealth; indeed, the first UWOs have already been issued by the court.

In relation to our conversations with our EU partners, this will, as I mentioned, be an agenda item at the EU Council next week and we will of course be talking to our EU partners. The Prime Minister has already spoken to Chancellor Merkel and President Macron, among others, to see what ways forward we can find with our EU partners to look at the precise areas that the noble Lord set out.

United Kingdom-European Union Future Economic Partnership

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The UK, rightly, has some of the highest environmental and animal welfare standards around our agrifood sector; we want that to continue and we fully expect that it will. However, what we want is an agreement that ensures consistency of outcomes and standards for agrifood, while adding scope for flexibility in how we achieve this, and to make sure that our farmers and fishermen are able to take advantage of the freedoms that we may have by now leaving the EU.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I would like to ask the Minister a couple of practical questions. I admire the detail in the speech; there is a lot to learn in it, and I wish it had been given 18 months ago. However, I do not fully understand the “customs partnership” concept. Is it the case that if a container ship from Asia docks in Hamburg or Rotterdam, for containers coming on to Britain the authorities there will be expected to apply our definitions and rules of origin and the rates of duty that we set? If so, what is their incentive to agree to that additional complication for them? As for the agencies, what is the incentive for continental pharmaceutical or chemical industries to agree that we—uniquely, as no one outside the EU has membership of the single market’s agencies—should be allowed membership of them? Why should they agree? These are very interesting proposals, but are we sure of their negotiability? We present them as our offers; in fact, they are our requests. Why should the EU let us pick the cherries?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

A customs partnership would mean that at the border the UK would mirror the EU’s requirements for imports from the rest of the world, applying the same tariffs and the same rules of origin as the EU for those goods arriving in the UK and intended for the EU. By following this approach, we would know that all goods entering the EU via the UK paid the right EU duties, removing the need for customs processes at the UK/EU border. In relation to agency membership, there are indeed precedents. Switzerland, for instance, is an associate member of the European Aviation Safety Agency, which means that airworthiness certifications are granted by its own aviation authority and disputes are resolved through its courts.

Brexit Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Kerr of Kinlochard

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I cannot be clearer that I have been already. The whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the EU single market. Nothing in the agreement alters that fundamental fact.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Given the Minister’s non-answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and her rather worrying answer to that of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, will she confirm that the United Kingdom Government, having agreed the definition of their financial obligations, will under no circumstances refuse to honour them, as a matter of honour?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the Prime Minister has made clear, the money is on the table in the context of agreeing our partnership for the future. If that is not agreed, then the financial offer is off the table.