Update to Parliament

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Baroness and pay tribute to her work and the support she has shown in this area as well. I am very aware of the environment within which we are all working in this House and in the House of Commons and the incredible job that Peers across the House and MPs across the House of Commons do to represent their constituents to put forward important views, discuss and debate them, and scrutinise legislation. This House made very clear to me today, and also more broadly, its concern about the tone used in the Statement. That is clear; I will reflect that back.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, my initial indignation about the Statement has been replaced rather by disappointment. Let me begin by saying that I have very great sympathy with the Leader of the House having to repeat this. It is a Statement that is vacuous; it lacks contrition or substance; and it fails, in my view, to make the kind of public apology to Her Majesty the Queen that is necessary in circumstances where she has been drawn into the political arena—not helped, if I may say so, by some of the observations of a previous Prime Minister.

The Statement says that:

“It is absolutely no disrespect to the judiciary”,


but that is the oldest form of weasel words. It goes on to say:

“the court was wrong to pronounce on what is essentially a political question at a time of great national controversy”,

emphasising the belief that the court was wrong. Then we look at the next paragraph, which says:

“So we have Opposition MPs who block and delay everything, running to the courts”.

What is that other than deliberately pejorative language, no doubt for the purpose in mind? To “block” is a pejorative word and “delay” even more.

Then we come to the least attractive feature of this Statement, which says that measures are delayed,

“including legislation on the NHS”,

suggesting that those that who run to the courts obstruct the good practice and the expansion of the National Health Service. If ever there were a piece of sleight of hand, to put it mildly, it is contained in that. Even more so is,

“and keeping violent criminals in jail”.

So those who went to court are to be blamed for adverse effects on the National Health Service and on keeping violent criminals in jail. That is why I am disappointed.

The Prime Minister had an opportunity to rise to the occasion, but he chose not to take it. I fear that that is precisely the judgment that not only Members of this House have formed, but which the public increasingly will form. It says a great deal about this Prime Minister—I will not rehearse his failures, as put so eloquently by my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace—that, at a time such as this, he is incapable of rising to the occasion.

I ask the Leader of the House one question: why did she feel it necessary to ask to see the legal advice about Prorogation? If Prorogation is a routine matter, as has been suggested, why was it necessary for her to be shown the legal advice that justified it? The inference that some might draw is that this was already accepted to be an unusual Prorogation.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

First, the Prime Minister and this Government have made it clear—it was the first thing that I said in response to the first comments—that we have the highest respect for our judiciary, their independence and the work that they do. I am happy to put that on record again. In relation to the noble Lord’s question about the legal advice, as I said, I sought and received confirmation that the Prorogation was lawful. Therefore, on that basis, I attended the Privy Council.

G7

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Britain is responsible for 2.6 million square miles of ocean: we are the fifth largest maritime estate in the world. The Prime Minister announced £7 million for the Blue Belt programme to extend our work to protect the vital marine ecosystems in conservation areas, although that was overseas rather than within the UK. As for biodiversity targets in particular, for a number of reasons the current set of global targets have not reversed the global decline in biodiversity; therefore we discussed at the G7, which accepted our proposals, that we should seek to ensure that the ambition of the new global framework matches the scale of the problem, and that targets are measurable and time-bound, with strong accountability through monitoring and review mechanisms.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I respectfully caution the Leader of the House when it comes to interpretation of the paragraph that begins:

“Speaking in Berlin of possible alternatives to the backstop, Chancellor Merkel … said: ‘Once we see and say this could be a possible outcome—this could be a possible arrangement—this backstop is a sort of placeholder which is no longer necessary’”.


The last part of that paragraph is a conclusion, not a statement of an unequivocal position, and the conclusion depends upon something that is regarded as a possible outcome or arrangement. Until the United Kingdom provides something that can be a possible outcome or arrangement, the conclusion is valueless.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, the Prime Minister has had good initial conversations with Chancellor Merkel, President Macron and others, he is seeing the Taoiseach next week, and he has been encouraged by the fact that there has been a willingness to talk about alternatives to the backstop. We are picking up the tempo of the discussions between our negotiators over the coming weeks so that we can drill down into the issue that has really prevented MPs supporting the withdrawal agreement. That is what we will be focusing on, because we are committed to trying to get a deal.

Priorities for the Government

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Thursday 25th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am very happy to reassure my noble friend that we are a country that abides by our international obligations and will continue to do so.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, it is not often that one gets the promise of Arcadia and Utopia in the same Statement. Is it the Government’s position that, in seeking to open any negotiation with the European Union, they will do so in the expectation that it will not seek concessions from our side of the argument?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We will be in negotiations with the European Union, which means, of course, that two sides will be involved and looking for what they want—but both sides want a deal. We want a constructive, strong relationship with the EU going forward; they want that, and we want that. That is why we are very keen to begin discussions with both the Commission and EU leaders to try to get over the current impasse because at the moment, we do not have a withdrawal agreement that we can get through the House of Commons.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 24th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. That is most certainly the approach that the Prime Minister took at this Council and which we will continue to take in future.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, one matter that leaps out of this Statement is that Iran was discussed only in the margins. How can it possibly be that a matter of such pressing urgency should have been discussed only in the margins of the meeting? What response did the Prime Minister get to the discussions that she had? Indeed, with whom did she have them?

On these occasions it has become almost trite to say that nothing has changed, but one thing that has certainly not changed—I hope the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will agree—is that the 27 remaining members of the EU refuse to consider any renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement. Will she pass that message on to the two candidates for the leadership of the Conservative Party?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that, as I said, there was no substantive discussion of Iran at the Council but it was indeed raised in discussions at the margins. However, I am sure he is aware that over the weekend my right honourable friend the Minister for the Middle East went to Tehran and met senior Iranian government representatives there. That visit was an opportunity for further engagement about our long-standing concerns over Iran’s destabilising activity. In those conversations he reiterated our assessment that Iran almost certainly bears responsibility for the recent attack on tankers in the Gulf of Oman and stressed that such activity needs to stop to allow for an immediate de-escalation of rising tensions. He also discussed the nuclear deal and reiterated our support for that, as well as raising our concerns over the continued imprisonment of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. So while discussions did not happen at the Council, as the noble Lord points out, I assure him that we took the lead in having discussions in Tehran over the weekend.

The noble Lord is absolutely right that without a withdrawal agreement, as the EU has said, there can be no implementation period.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

People have not seen the withdrawal Bill yet. It is being published on Friday, so I urge the noble Lord and colleagues down in the other place to wait, look at it, reflect, and understand that we need the Bill in order to leave the EU, whatever you wish the future relationship with the EU to be. I would ask everyone to look at the Bill and consider it, and then the vote will be brought forward at Second Reading. I hope that we will then see the Bill begin to pass, and we can then move on, as everyone here has said, to the future relationship with the EU.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by expressing my admiration for the Leader of the House, first, for her loyalty to the Prime Minister and, secondly, for her courage under fire. But is not the fate of these proposals to be found in the rather brutal headline of the national newspaper which used to be regarded as the house magazine of the Conservative Party—namely, “Desperate, deluded, doomed”?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for what I think are his kind words—I shall take them as that anyway. As I said, I believe that we want to leave the EU in an orderly and smooth manner. This deal is the way to do that, and that is why I continue to stand here and defend it in the face of fire from all sides. However, the British people made a decision, we are determined to deliver it, we have made a further offer to MPs to consider it and I hope that, in a couple of weeks’ time, they will vote for the Second Reading of the withdrawal Bill.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I think I and a number of Front-Bench colleagues have said, we have been preparing for no deal. We have contingency plans in place, particularly in relation to healthcare. Noble Lords have rightly raised this issue on a number of occasions. We have consistently said that we do not believe that no deal is the best outcome. That is why we have a deal on the table and that is what we continue to work for. I entirely agree that leaving with the deal the Prime Minister has negotiated is a far, far better outcome.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, now that the Government have abandoned the conventions of confidentiality and collective Cabinet responsibility, can the Leader of the House tell us whether any of the proposals under consideration carry majority support in the Cabinet?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think the noble Lord will recognise that I have never breached that convention, and I will not be doing it now.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister’s focus over the next couple of weeks will be on achieving a deal that can get the support of MPs across the House of Commons, so that we can move on to focus on our future relationship and develop the strong partnership with the EU that we all want to see.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, fairly read, this Statement is about process, not progress. The truth is that the Empress still has no clothes. The Prime Minister has nothing of substance to tell either the House of Commons or your Lordships’ House. I want to ask two specific questions. First, what legal changes did the Prime Minister discuss with Mr Juncker last week, as she refers to in the Statement? Secondly, why does she assume in the ninth-to-last line of the Statement that there will be legally binding changes to the backstop? Where is the evidence in support of that assertion?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister has set out the changes that we are looking for. The Attorney-General was out there last week and he is out there again today. He is having discussions on the legal nature of the changes we are looking for.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I believe that both the EU and the UK want an agreement. We want a good deal and a strong relationship going forward. That is what everyone is working towards. Everyone needs a cool head. We need to negotiate and discuss and bring back a deal that the House of Commons can support so, as I said, we can move on to discussing the strong, future partnership that we all want between the UK and the EU.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, this Statement is both vacuous in content and indeed in language. The truth is that the only important sentence is the one that reads:

“As expected, President Juncker maintained the EU’s position that they will not reopen the withdrawal agreement”.


Where is the hard evidence that the European Union is willing to depart from that position? If it were persuaded to do so, what concessions will the Government be willing to make in return?

EU Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Government will be working very hard to get the deal through the House of Commons. But, as I said in response to a previous question, if the House of Commons chooses to reject the deal, there is a process set out in legislation, which we will follow.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement is anxious about future damage in the event of a second referendum, but what about the damage which recent events have been causing—in particular, damage to the value of the pound, which will undoubtedly result in an increase in the cost of living, and damage to the stock market, which will have an adverse impact on the value of the pensions of many of our citizens? Is the Cabinet so suffused with personal ambition and disloyalty that none of them notices what is happening?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The reason we have spent so much time negotiating this deal, which is a good deal, is that we want to ensure that we have a strong relationship with the EU going forward. We are all cognisant of the problems of uncertainty; for instance, that is why we have agreed an implementation period to help ensure that there is not a cliff edge. We are cognisant of the concerns the noble Lord outlined, which is exactly why the Prime Minister has been spending so much time negotiating a deal that is in the good interests of the UK and the EU.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, the CJEU would give a view only on the interpretation of the specific point of EU law. The arbitration panel would then take a decision on how to resolve the dispute.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, if the subject of the referendum had been this deal, how many people does the Minister think would have voted for it?

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Reid, missed his calling. He may not be a lawyer, but he made a pretty good imitation of one. I do not really think that the noble Baroness was able to respond. I will not repeat the points he made, other than to point out that this document says we will take back control of our laws and end the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. These assertions are made without any qualification. If you look carefully, you will see that paragraph 134 says circumstances may arise where the United Kingdom chooses to invoke the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That is wholly contrary to the impression this document seeks to give.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I have already responded to these points and have nothing further to add. The ability of the CJEU to provide an interpretation of EU law is not the same as resolving disputes.

October European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the Statement made clear, when we put forward our proposal for a temporary joint customs territory, the EU was initially sceptical, but it is now actively working with us on our proposal. So positions and discussions in negotiations change, and we move forward together. We have been very clear that we are committed to ensuring that our future economic partnership provides a solution to the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland. The circumstances we are talking about are in the unlikely event that we do not reach that agreement and have our new relationship in place by January 2021. That is what we are working towards and what we believe we will be able to achieve.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, no doubt inadvertently, the Leader did not respond to the final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Do the Government accept that during the period of implementation or transition—call it what you will—the United Kingdom will be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ and that that jurisdiction will also last for as long as any extension to that period of transition?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, yes, because we have already accepted that and been clear about that in relation to the implementation period.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will be aware we had a referendum across the United Kingdom. The vote was clear and we are now working on the wishes of the people.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, it seems to me this Statement is a triumph of draftsmanship over reality, and the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, put his finger on it: does the Cabinet agree? Beyond that is a further question: will the House of Commons be willing to agree? Of course, among the things not mentioned in this Statement is the fact the Secretary of State for Scotland and the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party have both threatened to resign if special arrangements are made for Northern Ireland which are not also extended to Scotland. Have they withdrawn that threat?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The whole Government are clear that we want to protect the integrity of the United Kingdom in all scenarios. The House of Commons will indeed have a vote. We believe that we will bring forward a deal that the Commons will be able to support, but it will be for it to make that choice.

NATO Brussels Summit 2018

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 16th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for the clarification, and I hope that the President takes note as well. My noble friend is absolutely right. As I said in the Statement, NATO’s European allies are stepping up their defence spending. Non-US defence spending has increased by $87 billion since 2014. Progress is being made, as NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said, but there is more to do and we will keep up the pressure.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, anyone present in Brussels last week would regard the Statement as an inadequate account of the nature of the summit, not least because of President Trump’s divisive, disruptive and dismissive behaviour—particularly towards our Prime Minister. It is of great importance to bear in mind now the complete unpredictability of the person whom I suppose is the nominal and practical leader of the North Atlantic alliance. The Prime Minister says that she welcomes his visit to Helsinki to meet Mr Putin; perhaps we had better wait until we hear what he says about Mr Putin before we extend such a welcome. But there was one matter on which the Statement was right: we must increase our own defence spending, not just to satisfy Mr Trump but—given his unpredictable nature—to allow for the possibility that Europe may have to act on its own.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Lord knows, we are meeting the 2% target and 20% of our defence budget is spent on equipment. We will continue to increase the defence budget by 0.5% a year above inflation. We take our commitments in this area extremely seriously.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On the noble Viscount’s first point about debates, I am sure, through the usual channels, we will look to ensure that this House has an early and, I am sure, lengthy discussion on the White Paper.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I recommend to the Leader the Tamworth Manifesto, produced by Sir Robert Peel, which laid the basis for the modern Conservative Party. I do not think she should be quite so dismissive of him. Going back to the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr—looking forward, as she has encouraged us to do—can we look forward with any confidence to a trade relationship with President Trump, who is now threatening British companies if they continue to trade with Iran, because of his unilateral withdrawal from the nuclear agreement, and has fallen out in the most public and deeply unpleasant way with his closest ally, Mr Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada? How can we possibly put our trust in someone so wholly unpredictable?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We want to ensure that UK and US businesses can continue to trade easily. Together, we have around $1 trillion invested in each other’s economies. The US is our largest single trading partner and top export destination. President Trump is coming to the UK at the end of next week and it will be an opportunity for us to have full and frank discussions and to advance our common interests.

Syria

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his comments and his experience in this area. Indeed, humanitarian intervention is the legal justification we have put forward, which was indeed the justification we used for intervention in Kosovo. We have published the legal advice and we believe it is right. We are very grateful to our military for the work it did over those very difficult hours.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I find it difficult to see how anyone could reach the conclusion that this proportionate and targeted attack was anything other than lawful, although I understand it is the position of some in the other place to continue to doubt that. Having regard to the behaviour of the Assad regime, in particular following what one might call the warning of September 2013, the determination to persist in these unlawful attacks must inevitably provoke response.

However, I believe that the Government made a mistake, if I may put it as delicately as that, in not recalling Parliament—for the sake of 48 hours. If the question of urgency is to be raised in support of the Government’s attitude to that, it is worth pointing out how little urgency President Trump displayed over a period of several days. The United Kingdom was not at imminent risk. It would have been possible to debate these matters without reference to detailed and confidential intelligence and certainly without identifying targets. I do not expect the Leader of the House to agree with me, but I urge upon her that on any future occasion a more positive approach is taken to obtaining the discussion and, if necessary, the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his support in relation to the legal basis for the action. I am afraid he is right: I do not entirely agree with the second part of his comments. We believe we need to maintain the prerogative powers that allow the Executive to act in emergencies to alleviate human suffering, and we felt it was necessary to strike with speed so that we could allow our Armed Forces to act decisively, maintain the vital security of their operation, and protect the security and interests of the UK.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think the actions today of our European partners and friends, in addition to those that we have taken, show that we will stand firm in the face of what has happened and Russia’s reckless behaviour. Unfortunately, the Salisbury incident is part of a pattern of increasingly aggressive Russian behaviour and represents a new and dangerous phase in its activity. That is why measures have been taken now and why the Council has agreed further measures and to come back to this at the next meeting in June, with Foreign Ministers being tasked to report back ahead of the next Council. Once again, we are very grateful for the support, not just of our European partners but the United States, Canada and Ukraine, who have also taken action today.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, is not the hard fact that the key question for the Government is which do they regard as more important: the Belfast agreement or being out of the customs union?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

No, I do not think that is the question. As I have said, we are committed to the Good Friday agreement and to ensuring no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Salisbury Incident

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

There has been an update on travel advice. Due to heightened political tensions between the UK and Russia, travellers should be aware of the possibility of anti-British sentiment or harassment. If anyone is in Russia, or due to travel in the coming weeks, they are advised to remain vigilant, avoid any protests or demonstrations and avoid publicly commenting on political developments. While the British embassy in Moscow is not aware of any increased difficulties for British people travelling in Russia, they should of course follow the security and political situation closely, and keep up to date with further travel advice.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister may be aware that there is a NATO summit scheduled for Brussels later this year. Might I suggest that it would be a relevant opportunity for enhancing and developing the levels of co-operation that are obviously essential in order to meet the new threat posed by events in Salisbury, and indeed perhaps for strengthening NATO’s strategic concept?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Certainly, the Secretary-General has recognised this incident as of great concern to NATO. In fact, the NATO council published a statement today, saying:

“Allies expressed solidarity with the UK, offered their support in the conduct of the ongoing investigation, and called on Russia to address the UK’s questions including providing full and complete disclosure of the Novichok programme to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Allies agreed that the attack was a clear breach of international norms and agreements”.

Salisbury Incident Update

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem

Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, we have a range of powers. For instance, we have a power to exclude from the UK non-EEA individuals whose presence is not conducive to the public good; EEA nationals may be excluded on the grounds of public policy or public security; and a person may be excluded for a range of reasons, including national security, criminality, involvement in war crimes, crimes against humanity, corruption and unacceptable behaviour. As the Prime Minister made clear in response to questions in the other place, we will continue to keep these matters in mind and, if we feel further action needs to be taken, we will consider doing so.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, may we have an assurance from the Minister that economic or financial considerations will not stand in the way of a proper response to these outrageous events?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think that is already quite clear.