European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 19 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 19A and 19B in lieu and do propose Amendments 19C to 19L as amendments to Commons Amendment 19A—

19A: Page 8, line 43, at end insert the following new Clause—
“Parliamentary approval of the outcome of negotiations with the EU
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(a) a Minister of the Crown has laid before each House of Parliament— (i) a statement that political agreement has been reached,
(ii) a copy of the negotiated withdrawal agreement, and
(iii) a copy of the framework for the future relationship,
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown,
(c) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship has been tabled in the House of Lords by a Minister of the Crown and—
(i) the House of Lords has debated the motion, or
(ii) the House of Lords has not concluded a debate on the motion before the end of the period of five sitting days beginning with the first sitting day after the day on which the House of Commons passes the resolution mentioned in paragraph (b), and
(d) an Act of Parliament has been passed which contains provision for the implementation of the withdrawal agreement.
(2) So far as practicable, a Minister of the Crown must make arrangements for the motion mentioned in subsection (1)(b) to be debated and voted on by the House of Commons before the European Parliament decides whether it consents to the withdrawal agreement being concluded on behalf of the EU in accordance with Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union.
(3) Subsection (4) applies if the House of Commons decides not to pass the resolution mentioned in subsection (1)(b).
(4) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the House of Commons decides not to pass the resolution, make a statement setting out how Her Majesty’s Government proposes to proceed in relation to negotiations for the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the EU under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union.
(5) A statement under subsection (4) must be made in writing and be published in such manner as the Minister making it considers appropriate.
(6) This section does not affect the operation of Part 2 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 (ratification of treaties) in relation to the withdrawal agreement.
(7) In this section—
“framework for the future relationship” means the document or documents identified, by the statement that political agreement has been reached, as reflecting the agreement in principle on the substance of the framework for the future relationship between the EU and the United Kingdom after withdrawal;
“negotiated withdrawal agreement” means the draft of the withdrawal agreement identified by the statement that political agreement has been reached;
“ratified”, in relation to the withdrawal agreement, has the same meaning as it does for the purposes of Part 2 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 in relation to a treaty (see section 25 of that Act);
“sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);
“statement that political agreement has been reached” means a statement made in writing by a Minister of the Crown which—
(a) states that, in the Minister’s opinion, an agreement in principle has been reached in negotiations under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union on the substance of—
(i) the arrangements for the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the EU, and
(ii) the framework for the future relationship between the EU and the United Kingdom after withdrawal,
(b) identifies a draft of the withdrawal agreement which, in the Minister’s opinion, reflects the agreement in principle so far as relating to the arrangements for withdrawal, and
(c) identifies one or more documents which, in the Minister’s opinion, reflect the agreement in principle so far as relating to the framework.”

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[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, as you will have noticed there has been a great deal of movement and debate on this issue since we last considered it, including the tabling of a manuscript amendment just this morning, so I hope you will indulge me if I spend a moment to take stock of where we are.

Ahead of the other place’s consideration of our amendments, the Government tabled an amendment in lieu of my noble friend Lord Hailsham’s Amendment 19. This amendment reflected the spirit of this House’s advice and incorporated a number of elements of my noble friend’s amendment. This included guaranteeing in law the Government’s commitment to: tabling a Motion on the final deal in both Houses; securing an Act of Parliament containing provision for the implementation of the withdrawal agreement; ensuring that the Commons Motion occurs before the European Parliament votes, so far as is practicable; and giving the Government 28 days to make a statement setting out their next steps in the unlikely event that the Commons rejects the deal put to it. But our amendment in lieu included some significant differences. For example, we attached a deadline to this House’s consideration of a Motion on the final deal. As some noble Lords, such as my noble friends Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Lord Howard of Lympne, raised when we debated this issue on Report, it is not right that your Lordships’ House could have a veto on the deal simply by refusing to consider a Motion.

The Government also removed a number of the deadlines set out in the amendment passed by this House—deadlines that would have served in practice to make it harder to negotiate the best possible deal for the UK. Importantly, we removed Parliament’s power to give binding negotiation directions to the Government. As we discussed at length on Report, this would represent a profound constitutional shift regarding which branch of the state holds the right to act in the international sphere. It would also be totally impractical. The Government cannot demonstrate the flexibility necessary for a successful negotiation if they are beholden so directly to the House of Commons. Significantly, this is a point of principle accepted by those on both sides of the debate, including my right honourable and learned friend Dominic Grieve. It is also worth repeating the comment of Vernon Bogdanor, a constitutional expert quoted by the Secretary of State in the other place, that such a provision would be a “constitutional absurdity” that, would “weaken the position” of Britain’s negotiators.

So I am disappointed to see an alternative amendment on the Order Paper, tabled by my noble friend Lord Hailsham, which resurrects this provision and reflects an amendment tabled in the other place by Dominic Grieve—although noble Lords will no doubt have noticed that he himself said in a television interview yesterday that, “The idea that Parliament should be able to mandate, to order, the Government to do something … was going too far”. The House will be aware that my noble friend tabled manuscript Amendment 19P earlier this morning, so I will leave it up to him to advise the House which of the two amendments he intends to move.

I will not go through either amendment line by line at this stage as my noble friend will want to set out his stall himself, but from the Government’s perspective his first Amendment, 19M, retains the same major flaws, both practical and constitutional, as the one this House passed during Report. The government amendment on this subject has now been accepted in the other place. However, noble Lords will doubtless be aware that its acceptance was in part on the basis that further conversations would take place with MPs on the Government Benches who held concerns about elements of it. In particular, we heard the concern that our amendment does not make overt provision for parliamentary input in the unlikely event that we do not agree a deal with the EU. We said that we would consider this point and come back with a new version in the House of Lords, which is precisely what we have done.

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[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, the Government have fully engaged with the issues that have been raised by Parliament and have come back with a fair, practical and constitutionally sound offer. Given that my noble friend Lord Hailsham has not moved his original Amendment 19M, I shall simply reiterate my concerns about his manuscript amendment. Your Lordships’ House has a reputation for high-quality scrutiny of the legislation put before it, including much good work that we have seen on this Bill, but hastily drawn up manuscript amendments do not show this House in its best light.

My noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne was correct to say that if this House agrees to the Government’s amendment, the other place will be able to take its own decision. As we have heard, how it does that is of course up to that House, in particular Mr Speaker. But what I can say is that if the other place wants to consider amendments to the Government’s position, it will.

Importantly, I would point out that the Government’s amendment satisfies many of the objectives of my noble friend Lord Hailsham’s original amendment. Subsection (5A) calls for a Motion on any statement required under subsection (4); the government amendment provides for that. Subsection (5B) calls for a Motion in the event that no deal has been reached with the EU by a particular deadline. The government amendment, while pushing back that deadline by a month and a half, provides that too. The only subsection we have not incorporated is subsection (5C) which would provide Parliament with the power to give binding negotiating directions to the Government. As I have said, that is constitutionally and practically untenable, and both sides accept that it should not make it on to the statute book. I repeat again that the Government’s amendment before the House today covers the three situations that the amendment of my right honourable and learned friend Dominic Grieve sought to achieve in the other place and which is covered by the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hailsham: first, if Parliament rejects a deal; secondly, if the Prime Minister announces before 21 January 2019 that no deal can be agreed with the EU; and, thirdly, if no agreement has been reached by the end of 21 January 2019.

I turn briefly to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord True. Let me say now that I understand the reasons he has tabled it and I thank him for doing so. He has also helped to bring an important balance to today’s debate. However, one of the reasons we are not supporting my noble friend Lord Hailsham is the fact that this needs to be settled in the House of Commons, not this House, and that applies to his amendment. I hope, therefore, that he will not press it.

My noble friend Lord Lamont asked whether an amendment to one of the Motions in the Government’s amendment would be tantamount to a direction as in Grieve I. This would not be the case as it would not be legally binding, but it would still seek to instruct the Government in an international negotiation and would therefore fail the Prime Minister’s test of not seeking to tie the Government’s hands in negotiations.

On the point of justiciability, I refer to—

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for giving way. She has mentioned that agreeing to this amendment would hamper the Government’s negotiations. The noble Lord, Lord True, has said exactly the same thing. We have known right from the beginning that in Europe’s view, the European Parliament and the European Council will get a vote on the final deal. Has that ruined their negotiating position? Not at all—they are in a very strong negotiating position. As for Dominic Grieve, he deserves the parliamentary equivalent of the Victoria Cross.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On the point of justiciability, I refer to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who expressed the position correctly.

I hope that noble Lords will support the Government’s serious proposals before them rather than the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Hailsham. Should the House agree to the amendment in lieu, which has been tabled by the Government, the House of Commons will be given the chance to decide the procedure it wishes to follow for a vote. I ask whether it really is the right thing for this House, at this stage, to seek to push this issue further. It should be left to the House of Commons to take its decision. I think that this House needs to reflect very seriously on the decision it is about to make.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the debate and I thank all noble Lords who took part. It ranged a bit more widely than my amendment and I can see that the House wishes to get to a vote on the main question. At some point it would be useful to show publicly, by name, what individuals in this House think about the specific issue—but that can be addressed in a different way on another occasion. I accept the point made by my noble friend the Leader of the House that ultimately these questions should be decided in the House of Commons; I am grateful for what she said.

However, repeating what I said at the outset, we have heard a lot about Commons procedure. The reality is that, under Commons procedure and the control of Mr Speaker, it would be conceivable for this matter to be addressed as an amendment in lieu without the support for the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hailsham. As the Leader of the House said, it is not necessary for your Lordships’ House to align itself with a faction in the House of Commons with an axe to grind—

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110J: Page 49, line 30, after “7(3)” insert “or 11”

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, appropriate scrutiny of delegated powers is crucial to ensuring that the Government are properly held to account by Parliament, and we accept that this is particularly important in relation to those granted under this Bill.

Last week the other place debated and rejected Amendments 110 and 128. Whatever some noble Lords might feel about the sifting mechanism proposed, it is what the other place favours and it has now demonstrated that across multiple Divisions.

As it stands, the Bill does not provide a statutory basis for a sifting mechanism in this House. I hope that noble Lords will agree that we must do something to rectify this or we will have no provision in the Bill allowing for a sifting process in this House whatever. I am pleased that when rejecting our amendments, the other place, quite rightly, left it up to us to decide whether or not to emulate its own sifting mechanism.

The Government have always believed that this House should have an analogous mechanism to that in the other place, which is why I worked with the Procedure Committee to agree the mechanism by which the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee would conduct the functions which, in the other place, will be conducted by a new sifting committee.

Unfortunately, the Government’s amendments providing for that were pre-empted on Report by the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane. As the Commons has now made its view clear once more, the Government are returning to the proposals which this House did not have the opportunity to decide on, as amendments in lieu. Without their being accepted today, the sifting process would be deprived of the weight of expertise in this House on questions of secondary legislation and procedure.

I believe that our amendment strikes the right balance. It will ensure that there is sufficient time for the legislative challenge ahead: a challenge for which we all share responsibility. Although that means that the committees will have to react at pace, we are confident that they are well equipped to do so.

Most importantly, our amendment will put this House on an equal footing with the Commons and ensure that there is every opportunity to make recommendations which the Government are committed to respecting.

I know that there has been concern that Ministers may ignore the committees. I echo the sentiment of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union when he said that there is likely to be a “political cost which will be significant” to going against a sifting committee recommendation.

As I made clear in our previous debates on this issue, the Government have always expected to have to justify themselves to the sifting committees where they agree, with Ministers either being called in person before the committee or writing to explain their views. I hope the House does not think that this is a commitment which Ministers would shirk or seek to shy away from.

However, in order to put this beyond doubt, the Government are happy to put their commitment into statute, and this is reflected in the amendments before us tonight. Ministers will be required to make and provide to Parliament a Written Statement explaining themselves if they disagree with a recommendation from one or both of the sifting committees. Your Lordships can be assured that there will be no hiding place from the light of your scrutiny. I beg to move.

[Lord Lisvane]

My Lords, it would be extremely churlish of me not to acknowledge the movement which the Government have undertaken on these issues, particularly including your Lordships’ House in the sifting process. During Commons consideration of the amendments, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, deployed a rather familiar set of arguments, if I may put it in that way. Quoting the chair of the House of Commons Procedure Committee, he insisted that the Government proposals, under which Ministers will, despite the statements and other provisions, have the final word on whether the substantial amount of secondary legislation which may be brought forward under the Bill, should be subject to the affirmative or negative procedure. He insisted that that procedure had teeth. If it is really to have teeth, some significant dental work is still required. But these exchanges are not the place to consider matters of that sort. The point has been made and although, in an ideal world, it has not been completely adequately answered, I think we should leave the matter there. The test will be, of course, the first occasion on which the committee’s view differs from that of the Government.

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[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I can be very brief, because the noble Lord, Lord Newby, has noted exactly the same words as I have—“at pace”. These words alarmed me, because although some of us feel that we worked very hard on this Bill, it is as nothing to what the people on those committees will be doing. I wish them luck.

My question is related to that: when are we expecting the first of these SIs? Now that we have this, we need to move fairly fast to set that up. I very much hope that the colleagues sitting on the other side of the Leader will accept the Motion that we passed today. In that case this would be our last meeting on this Bill. We have already thanked the Bill team again, but it would be wonderful if they did not have to come back. In the meantime, they have at least another day’s work. For the members of these committees, however, their work has just started.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, the Government’s amendments deliver to this House parity with the Commons, ensuring that all the expertise concentrated here will be properly available to provide proper scrutiny of the SIs that come under this Bill. The noble Baroness asked about timing. Once this Bill receives Royal Assent, SIs can obviously start to be tabled. Therefore, we are not quite there yet, but like her I hope that we will be very soon.

These amendments will also ensure that any Minister who disagrees—and I may have misspoken in my opening speech by saying “agree” when I meant to say “disagree”; I put that on the record for clarity—with the recommendations of one or both of the sitting committees has to explain themselves.

I can certainly assure the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that the Government will play their part in ensuring that we have a functioning statute book, and indeed the proposal that has come forward under this amendment—to have two committees in order to expand the work on secondary legislation—will also give the House the ability to do its side of things. We will certainly be working together to make sure that we have the functioning statute book that we want. On that basis I hope that noble Lords will agree with the proposition that the Government have put forward.

Motion R agreed.