Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Main Page: Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Conservative - Life peer)Housing and Planning Bill
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
My Lords, the measures in this part of the Bill and Part 5 mark the Government’s commitment to tackle rogue landlords and agents as well as poor practice and standards in the private rented sector.
The amendments in this group respond to issues raised in Committee when we debated Part 2 of the Bill. They clarify issues that were of concern to your Lordships. Later this evening I will be moving further government amendments to address electrical safety in the private rented sector, which has also been of concern to your Lordships, as the House debates property standards in the sector.
Although he is not in his place, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for raising in Committee issues around companies being subject to banning orders. To clarify matters, Amendments 14 and 16 to 19 replace the word “company” with “body corporate”, which has a wider meaning and includes bodies that are incorporated legal entities, such as an association, non-government organisation or corporation—but also includes a company.
The amendments ensure consistency in the terminology used in this part of the Bill and that any incorporated body, not just a company, which commits a banning order offence can be subject to a banning order. Now that he has returned to his place, I will repeat my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for raising the issue that the amendments are trying to address.
Amendment 31 to Clause 54, which is concerned with definitions in Part 2 of the Bill, explains that a body corporate includes a company or other body incorporated outside England and Wales. This clarifies that the banning order provisions extend to companies and other bodies registered abroad. During Committee we had a useful debate about the nature of banning order offences and the degree to which such offences should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. As was explained, we have not included the specific offences on the face of the Bill because we want the flexibility to add further, or remove existing, offences as the new law beds in, and beyond, to ensure that the offences are relevant and up to date.
However, Clause 13(4) explains what matters may be taken into consideration when setting out in regulations what are banning order offences. The banning order offences will all be existing offences which already have serious consequences for those convicted, such as those involving fraud or violence as well as offences under the Housing Act 2004. We will consult on the proposed offences to be included in the regulations. We have noted the concerns of the DPRRC and the strong feelings expressed by Members of this House about the need for parliamentary scrutiny of those offences. While we do not think that it is appropriate to include such offences on the face of the Bill, for the reasons I have just explained, we see force in the argument that before the offences become law they should be laid and debated in both Houses of Parliament. Amendment 133, therefore, provides that regulations under Clause 13(3) describing banning order offences will be subject to the affirmative procedure.
The Committee also debated the standard of proof that should apply where a local housing authority imposed a financial penalty for the breach of a banning order or for certain offences under the Housing Act 2004, as an alternative to initiating a criminal prosecution for those offences. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, was concerned that it was unclear whether the authority could apply the civil standard and, therefore, effectively act as prosecutor, judge and jury in its own case. I can confirm that the local housing authority will need to apply the criminal standard of proof.
Amendment 20 makes the standard of proof to be applied absolutely clear on the face of the Bill. A local housing authority which intends to impose a financial penalty must serve a notice of intent setting out both the reason for imposing the penalty and the amount. The reason must reflect that the local housing authority is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the offence complained of has been committed. The department will issue guidance to local housing authorities on financial penalties, including the circumstances in which a local authority should consider imposing such a penalty.
Amendment 21 clarifies how the First-tier Tribunal will deal with an appeal against the imposition of a financial penalty, in relation to both penalties imposed for a breach of a banning order and those imposed for offences under the Housing Act 2004. On appeal, the tribunal must consider the local housing authority’s financial penalty decision afresh and in reaching its own decision may take account of matters which the local authority was not aware of when it made its decision. The tribunal, therefore, does not review the authority’s decision and decide whether it is reasonable but must instead re-determine the case itself, applying the criminal standard of proof on the facts known to it.
Amendment 29 is concerned with appeals under Part 2 of the Bill from the First-tier Tribunal. Essentially the new clause provides that an appeal to the Upper Tribunal cannot be made unless permission is granted by either the First-tier Tribunal or the Upper Tribunal, but any such appeal is not limited to a point of law only. This mirrors the situation in other housing legislation involving appeals to the Upper Tribunal, such as the Housing Act 2004 and the Mobile Homes Act 1983. I beg to move.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, my Amendment 15 has been popped into the middle of all these government amendments, so now is the moment when technically I must speak to it. It has been tabled in the same way as it was before: simply to ask the House to comment on how well it now thinks our regulations are beginning to show through in the form of amendments to this Bill. We have been very dissatisfied that the regulations have not been published and believe that much has to be put on the face of the Bill that could otherwise have been covered in regulations. I do not need to go into further detail as I spoke to this in Committee.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank my noble friend Lady Gardner for Amendment 15, and the noble Lord for his comments. As I explained in my opening remarks, we have considered the issues raised in Committee and by the DPRRC concerning banning order offences. This is why we are moving an amendment that regulations prescribing banning order offences will now be subject to the affirmative procedure and therefore cannot be brought into law until both Houses of Parliament have debated them. In effect, this would mean that Clause 13 could not become operational until after your Lordships had approved the regulations. As we also said in Committee, we will consult on the proposed banning order offences before the regulations are laid in Parliament.
I hope that, with these assurances, my noble friend will not press her amendment and I commend the government amendments in this group.
“( ) An appeal under this paragraph—(a) is to be a re-hearing of the local housing authority’s decision, but(b) may be determined having regard to matters of which the authority was unaware.”
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, Clause 37 will require the Secretary of State to give every local authority in England access to information in the database of rogue landlords, which is fine as far as it goes. Amendment 22 in my name and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, would put a requirement on every local authority for a tenant to also have access to that list. This is a sensible provision as these prospective tenants are the people who need to be aware who the rogue landlords are so that they can make an informed choice when seeking rented accommodation. The noble Baroness made that point in her contribution.
Of course, we are talking about only England in this clause, but there is nothing to stop rogue landlords operating elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Perhaps when the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, responds she can tell us, notwithstanding the amendment, how the information will be disseminated beyond England and how it will be handled by the devolved institutions, because you will not be a rogue landlord in England and a model landlord in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at the same time if you have properties there.
Amendments 23 and 24 would remove the requirement for anonymity when the information is used for research purposes. This is important as it can help to identify trends and patterns that may need to be addressed by the Government. The anonymity afforded here risks something being missed. Amendment 25 to the same clause would make it clear that the information can be used for the protection of tenants. If that is not the purpose of this whole part of the Bill, then what is its purpose?
The final amendment in this group, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, would enable a housing authority not to grant a house in multiple occupation licence to someone on the database of rogue landlords. As we are all aware, occupants of HMO properties are often the most vulnerable of tenants. This seeks to afford some protection where the property is of sufficient size and number of people to require an HMO licence. I hope that the Government Front Bench can see the intent behind these amendments—to protect tenants—and will give the House a positive response.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, during the passage of the Bill we have debated extensively the question of who shall have access to the database, in which form and for what purposes. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Kennedy, have sought, through Amendments 22 to 25, to require that tenants or potential tenants should have access to the database, that the Secretary of State should be able to disclose information held in non-anonymised form, and that local authorities may use the information held on the database for the protection of tenants.
Giving tenants, or potential tenants, access to the database would be fine if its purpose was to blacklist landlords and to drive them out of business, but that is not its purpose. The proposed database is primarily for the purpose of ensuring that those landlords and property agents who have committed banning order offences, or who have received two or more civil penalties as an alternative to prosecution for such offences, can be monitored by local authorities to ensure future compliance with the law, and, where necessary, those authorities can target enforcement against them. The database will help local authorities drive up standards in their areas and ensure that those landlords entered on to it raise their game so that their properties are safe and well managed for the benefit of tenants.
As with penalty points on a driving licence, a person will remain on the database for a specified period—a minimum of two years. Also as with someone who has incurred penalty points, continuing to breach the law may result in a ban. While it is important, as I said, that people who commit banning order offences should be liable to be monitored through their entry on to the database, this does not mean that the public at large should have a right to know about those offences if they are not so serious as to warrant the local authority immediately obtaining a banning order. Again, there is an analogy with driving offences because there is no right for the public at large to know whether a person has received penalty points on their licence. Indeed, allowing such access to the database would arguably breach the landlord’s human rights by making sensitive personal information about their convictions publicly available and effectively banning them from operating without an independent tribunal determining whether they should be banned.
Amendment 26 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, is unnecessary. Under existing provisions for HMOs, which we are proposing to strengthen through Part 5 of the Bill, a local authority can grant a licence only if it is satisfied that the proposed licence holder is a fit and proper person. In doing so, it must have regard to, among other matters, whether the applicant has contravened housing law or been convicted of certain criminal offences such as those relating to violence, drugs or fraud. These offences that the authority must have regard to will likely be banning order offences for which a person can be entered on the database. It follows that a person who has been entered on to the database could be refused an HMO licence.
I should make it clear that just because a landlord has a conviction or received financial penalties under the new regime that will not automatically mean that they are an unfit person and not able to hold an HMO licence. It would, of course, depend on the nature of the offence, the circumstances surrounding it and whether the landlord was a prolific offender. Indeed, if the conviction or financial penalty was in respect of a minor infringement which had subsequently been put right, it would be disproportionate to refuse that person an HMO licence.
There is no blanket rule excluding persons who have criminal convictions or received financial penalties from holding HMO licences. It will depend on the individual circumstances of the case. However, this amendment would introduce such a blanket rule, even though such a person could continue to operate other types of private rented properties as the database is not a register of banned persons. Provisions are made in the Bill already to deal with HMOs operated by people subject to banning orders, namely that neither they nor any agent may hold such a licence. That is of course right because such a person has been banned from operating as a residential landlord.
As I have said, local authorities will be able to use the information on the database for the protection of tenants by using it to assist with exercising their functions under the Housing Act 2004 and to investigate contraventions of housing law and promote compliance with such law. In particular, authorities can use the information held to decide whether to apply for a banning order against a person entered on the database, whether or not he or she holds an HMO licence. It will then be for local authorities to decide whether to publicise information on those subject to banning orders in their local area, considering whether such publication can be justified as the most proportionate means of ensuring that banning orders are successfully enforced and that tenants in the area are properly protected.
These amendments would effectively result in many cases of landlords being put out of business, or at least suffering harmful reputations that would make trading more difficult, without any case being made out by the local authority to an independent tribunal to stop them trading through the banning order procedure. I hope that, with that explanation, noble Lords will not press their amendments.
On the question from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about how information on the database will be disseminated to devolved Administrations, we will consider taking powers to facilitate this and will explore that further with the devolved Administrations.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I thank the Minister. I had only just thought of that. Clearly, where somebody can operate across other parts of the United Kingdom, if they will be a rogue in England they will be a rogue elsewhere. It is an issue that needs to be looked at.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, we are supportive of both Amendments 27 and 28 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. Amendment 27 would require the Secretary of State to issue a code of practice for the letting and management of private rented sector housing in England. As often with legislation, you are legislating to deal with the end of the market that wants to cut a few corners. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of private sector landlords do a very good job and provide tenants with a better choice, better management standards and better homes than the code would allow for. However, the proposed code would afford an additional layer of protection and help to lift up those landlords who are not always the best in the business and raise standards generally. The list of organisations is comprehensive in nature and would allow the Secretary of State the flexibility though proposed new paragraph 3(j) to consult “other persons or organisations” as he considers appropriate, which is sensible as organisations come and go, and needs and requirements change.
Amendment 28 would require the Secretary of State to keep and publish a register of letting agents. This, again, is a very welcome move and would bring a sensible and proportionate measure to this part of the housing market by requiring a register to be maintained. These agents facilitate agreements between landlords and tenants. There is a proper role for local authorities in maintaining the register as they will be aware who is operating in their area. The amendment prescribes what information is to be held on the register. Proposed new subsection (8) of the amendment would allow the Secretary of State to,
“make further provision about the register”.
It is a sensible move to take this power. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, will accept the amendment. However, if she will not, I hope that she will explain carefully to the House why that is the case.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and other noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. If enacted, Amendment 27 would require the Secretary of State to issue a code of practice for the letting and management of private rented sector housing in England. A code to promote best practice in the letting and management of private rented sector housing in England already exists. A cross-sector code for the letting and management of private rented sector housing in England was originally published in September 2014. A wide range of industry members was involved, including all the stakeholders referenced in the noble Baroness’s amendment. The department also contributed to the wider stakeholder consultation and Brandon Lewis, Minister of State for Housing and Planning, provided the foreword. Although the code does not currently have statutory force, which would mean that a court or tribunal would have to take it into account when determining relevant cases, in practice, a court or tribunal would already be likely to take the contents of the code into account, where relevant. The code has been in operation for a year and a half, and was last updated in July 2015. The Government are continuing to work with industry to monitor the effectiveness of the code and organise any necessary revisions to ensure that it is relevant and remains up to date. In addition, since October 2014, all letting and property management agents have been required to join a redress scheme, offering a clear route for consumers to pursue complaints. This, in conjunction with the code, protects the consumer and supports good agents.
Amendment 28 seeks to introduce a mandatory national register for all letting agents in England that would be maintained and operated by the relevant local authority. As the noble Lord said, the vast majority of letting agents provide a good service to tenants and landlords and the Government do not believe that a mandatory register is the answer to tackle a minority of irresponsible agents. As my noble friend Lady Gardner said, the Government believe that this could add excessive red tape to the sector which would push up the cost of rents and reduce choice. The Government believe that providing routes for redress and ensuring full transparency is the best approach by giving consumers the information they want and supporting good letting agents. As I mentioned, that is why we recently required all agents to join a redress scheme and prominently display a breakdown of their fees and statements about redress and client money protection. This allows landlords and tenants to vote with their feet when looking to let or rent a property. Each redress scheme also displays a list of members, fully accessible to the public, on its website. What is also important is to help local authorities focus their enforcement action on the rogue agents who knowingly flout their responsibilities and leave the majority of good agents to get on with running their business. As we have just discussed, that is why we plan to introduce a database of rogue property agents and landlords.
In addition, we are also including provisions to allow local authorities to issue civil penalty notices of up to £30,000 as an alternative to prosecution for certain housing offences, which will support their capability to enforce action on rogue agents.
In response to the question from my noble friend Lady Gardner about letting agency fees, from May 2015 letting agents have been required to publish a full tariff of their fees on their websites and in their offices. Anyone who does not comply will face a fine of up to £5,000. Given the commitments I have mentioned and the action that we have already taken that I have outlined, I hope that these amendments will not be pressed.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville
Given that the Government have ensured that there is a register, will the noble Baroness explain why it is not a statutory requirement?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I mentioned, we believe that although it does not have statutory force, in practice it will be taken into account by a court or tribunal where it is relevant. Therefore, we do not believe that that further step is necessary.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville
I thank the noble Baroness for her remarks. I am pleased to hear that there is a register and a code of practice, but I am somewhat mystified about why there is no statutory enforcement. There are, therefore, loopholes through which tenants will fall. A large number of tenants will now be looking for accommodation in the private sector, having had their tenancies in the public sector ended under the removal of lifetime tenancies. There will be vulnerable people who have not been used to renting in the private sector who are being displaced, perhaps because their rents have been increased or their tenancies not renewed by housing associations or local authorities. They will be looking for accommodation in the private sector and need protection.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Well, I will want to speak to that when the time comes.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, Amendment 32 aims to raise property standards for tenants: an aim that this Government support. The amendment will do two things. First, I am afraid I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, as we believe that it will create new hoops for good landlords to jump through as they seek to prove their property meets the standards, creating unnecessary red tape and expensive bureaucracy, the cost of which will be passed on to tenants through higher rents. Secondly, it risks letting rogue landlords off the hook by expecting tenants—sometimes very vulnerable tenants—to accurately inspect the condition of their property and go to the expense and stress of taking their landlord to court where there are failings. This will not tackle rogue landlords and will not help vulnerable tenants who do not have the knowledge or resources, as to get really bad landlords banned you need a successful prosecution first.
This is not an argument about whether homes should be fit for human habitation, despite how the amendment is titled. It is one about how standards in the private rented sector should be enforced. The Government believe that there is strong enforcement by local authorities and that it is a role that they, on the whole, have fulfilled well to date. Their actions can lead to criminal prosecution, unlimited fines, rent repayment orders and even banning orders. This amendment suggests it should be just a civil matter—a breach of contract to be dealt with by a civil court, where the tenant is asked to prove the case against their landlord. We cannot support this.
As my noble friend Lord Polak outlined, local authorities already make good use of the existing framework that provides them with strong powers to require landlords to make necessary improvements to a property. The housing health and safety rating system assesses the health and safety risk in all residential properties and, under the Housing Act 2004, following a HHSRS inspection, local authorities can issue the landlord with an improvement notice or a hazard awareness notice. Where local authorities find a serious breach—a category 1—they are under a duty and must take action.
Lord Campbell-Savours
The Minister keeps giving us these assurances. Does she have any stats there, provided by the local authorities, on the number of actions they have brought to comply with the law?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I do not think I have the statistics the noble Lord has asked for, but we have seen a significant reduction in the number of non-decent homes since we came into government in 2010—it is down by 64%. However, on the particular question, I do not have the figures to hand, so I may have to write to him following this debate.
We are strengthening the powers that I outlined previously by taking forward proposals through the Bill to enable local authorities to take further enforcement against rogue landlords, including through the database, banning orders, civil penalty notices and rent repayment orders. Noble Lords have argued that local authorities have limited resources to carry out inspections and take forward prosecutions but, through the new civil penalty measures outlined in the Bill, they would be able to retain those penalties, of up to £30,000, to use for housing-related activities.
The real problem is that tenants are often not aware of their rights when renting a home. To counter this, last year we published a short guide, Renting a Safe Home, which aims to help tenants recognise potentially harmful hazards in the home, such as damp, mould and excess cold, and to signpost them on what to do if something goes wrong. However, we understand the strength of feeling in the House on this and therefore commit to working with stakeholders to revisit this publication—to make it more user-friendly and to promote it further—to ensure that tenants are aware of their rights.
We believe that this proposed new clause would result in additional costs to landlords, which would deter further investment and push up rents for tenants. Of course we believe that all homes should be of a decent standard, and that all tenants should have a safe place in which to live regardless of tenure, but local authorities—
Lord Campbell-Savours
The Minister refers to this pushing up the costs and landlords passing those costs on to tenants. Is this the answer we are going to get when we consider the amendments dealing with electrical arrangements, which include the word “may”? In other words, when the Government say they “may” create electrical standards, do they have in mind the costs that they believe landlords are going to pass on to tenants? If that is the case, the legislation is going nowhere and we are not going to get it. We will not even get a statutory instrument.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I will obviously respond to the electrical safety issue in due course. We have put down amendments, and I hope I will be able to address those in a few minutes.
As I have said, we are strengthening the measures already in place by taking forward further measures in the Bill that will protect tenants and ensure that landlords provide good-quality, safe accommodation. I hope in the light of these comments that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her response, although I feel that it is woefully inadequate. I do not see why the Government are resisting the amendment. It is just not good enough to say that tenants in those circumstances should be able to rely on their local authority. Local authorities are struggling to meet their statutory responsibilities in this respect, and we should protect tenants from rogues who abuse them by not providing a home fit for human habitation. The noble Lord, Lord Polak, completely missed the point. I do not know whether he has ever been elected to a local authority; I am happy to welcome him to Lewisham to look at what we do there and see the difficulties that we confront every day in dealing with these issues. In the circumstances, it is right that we test the opinion of the House tonight.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
I am just wondering whether it is possible to have complied with subsection (2) of the proposed new clause and still be in breach of subsection (1).
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, Amendments 82 and 92, if approved by the House, will provide an enabling power that will allow the Secretary of State to set requirements for electrical safety in private rented properties, and their enforcement, through secondary legislation. I am conscious that this is an issue that many noble Lords feel strongly about, as we have heard again today, and it raised considerable debate in Committee. Following the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I, too, extend my sympathies to the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge.
The Government are taking a measured approach to this issue. Should Amendments 82 and 92 be approved by the House, we will continue our research and work with the sector to explore further the detailed options for regulation. This will allow any regulations to be introduced once the policy has been finalised, ensuring that they are beneficial and strike the right balance. The Government’s amendments have been welcomed by the sector, including Shelter, which said in its blog of 5 April:
“Put simply, they tabled a life-saving amendment”,
which is,
“a striking signal from the Government that they are serious about tackling rogue landlords and poor conditions”.
Amendment 33 would introduce requirements for landlords to organise regular electrical safety tests in their rental properties. As I have already stated, we have tabled an amendment to create an enabling power which would allow the Secretary of State to set requirements for electrical safety through secondary legislation at a later date. It will allow further research to be conducted and ensure that the requirements are balanced and beneficial to the sector as a whole. Should our amendment be approved, it will give us the time fully to understand all the potential impacts and assess all options.
Lord Campbell-Savours
The Minister referred to “a later date”. Can we be given some idea as to the timescale? When are we likely to see the secondary legislation?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I said, we want some time to assess all the options, but I will try to come back to the noble Lord with a clearer timescale—I do not have one immediately to hand.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Can we be assured that there will be regulations dealing with this matter? Can we have that assurance at least?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Yes, that is the Government’s intention.
In addition, putting the regulatory provisions on the face of the Bill would prevent them being changed, should they be found not to work effectively in practice, and further primary legislation would then be required. The Government believe that regulations such as those proposed are better made by secondary legislation so that they can be amended more easily should that be necessary. It is important to ensure that any regulation of electrical safety can be kept up to date.
Amendment 84 would define electrical safety standards for the purposes of this legislation as standards regarding both the installations for the supply of electricity, and electrical fixtures, fittings or appliances provided by the landlord. Any requirements introduced for electrical safety standards in private sector properties will be based on the findings of our committed further research.
Amendments 86 and 88 would mean that any regulations would require someone who is “competent” to carry out any necessary checks or produce any required certification, instead of someone who is “qualified”. Electrical safety is a very technical and potentially dangerous area, so it is important that the person who conducts any checks or produces any documentation has the necessary skills and experience to do so. This will be defined through any regulations and we believe that the term “qualified” allows for this.
Amendments 90 and 91 would allow requirements to be set for landlords to produce a certificate or a condition report, or both, instead of just a certificate. The amendments are unnecessary. A certificate will be defined through any regulations and will ensure that any documents provided are sufficient to tell the tenants that the property is safe and meets the required standards.
Amendments 83, 85, 87 and 89 would require the Secretary of State to introduce regulations for electrical safety in the private rented sector regardless of any of our findings from further work and discussions with stakeholders. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and others have talked about the difference between “must” and “may”. “Must” precludes any discussion with stakeholders; “may” allows us to design the way forward as part of our research. It would not be appropriate to pre-empt the results of our planned further research. Any introductions must be balanced and will be determined following extensive investigations of the effects of such requirements and further engagement with the sector.
I hope that the steps I have set out show the importance of these amendments and the Government’s commitment to protecting tenants. As I have said, we intend to bring regulations forward. With these assurances in mind, I ask that the government amendments be approved and that noble Lords do not press their Amendments 33 and 83 to 91.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank both my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for their interventions. I shall repeat what the Minister said to make sure that I, Hansard and everyone else have it absolutely right. I think she said that the Government intend to bring forward regulations. I see nods on the Government Benches. I think she answered yes to the straight question—I do like straight answers to straight questions—about our change from “may” to “must”. I disagree that “must” precludes discussions with stakeholders; nevertheless, the assurance about intent and the word “yes” are great reassurances.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
This is an extremely worrying situation, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, explained it. I am not at all clear about the fact that this provision appears to apply the tenancy provisions that are applicable to all guardianship contracts. The noble Lord has already explained clearly that these are not all residential properties; some are commercial. I wonder whether the guardianship arrangements are suitable for people who live in the accommodation, which cannot be of a very high standard to come under the guardianship scheme. Therefore, I wonder whether it is possible to build something satisfactory on a foundation so unsatisfactory as a guardianship scheme for residential property.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, I reiterate the point made by my noble friend the Minister during our previous debates. We as a Government do not endorse these schemes and do not have any plans to introduce new regulation in this area as we believe that doing so could be regarded as tacitly endorsing the use of property guardianship schemes as a legitimate housing option. As the noble Lord said, while there has been some suggestion in the press that these schemes are becoming more widespread, we do not have any evidence that this is in fact a growing sector, nor has there been any pressure from campaign groups and others to take action in this area. People are free to make their own housing choices and the Government do not have any plans to stop the use of property guardianship schemes. Occupiers pay a fee to occupy part of a building and are responsible for securing it and preventing damage. However, they are not tenants and do not, therefore, have the right to exclusive possession of any part of the building. In addition, they can be required to leave at very short notice. However, it is very important that anyone considering living in such a building clearly understands the limitations of these schemes and that they will have very limited rights.
As the noble Lord said, my noble friend has proposed that the department will publish a factsheet on its website which highlights the fact that the Government do not endorse these schemes and draws attention to their clear drawbacks, including the fact that the buildings may frequently be unsuitable to be used as accommodation and that an occupier of such buildings has very limited rights. With that explanation, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beecham
I am sorry to say that I find that a completely unsatisfactory answer. Once again, I do not blame the Minister. That is clearly the department’s line and it is utterly unacceptable. The noble and learned Lord says that all these arrangements should be barred, in effect. They were working reasonably well because there can be a fair degree of common interest when a responsible owner with a building on his or its hands treats people reasonably, on the understanding that it is short term, with no security of tenure, but there is at least a basic, decent standard of accommodation.
We now have people exploiting that situation partly on the basis, by the way, that the freeholders of the property no longer pay business rates because the property is not being used for business. That constitutes quite a significant financial loss to the local authority. That unfortunate consequence is a separate issue and one might not be too concerned about it.
We are left in the position that the Government are adamantly refusing to do anything other than warn people about the situation. That is, frankly, not good enough. I am sorry that the Government are taking that line. I wish to test the opinion of the House.