European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to this important amendment. I will be brief.

The Government should have a fairly good idea by now of the views of academics, universities and other institutions. Hopefully, they will have taken note of the strong views of students and former participants in the Erasmus programme that have been expressed in the press and on social media in the last week or so, and their huge concern about the potential loss of this programme.

In terms of projects, Erasmus is now about more than learning and higher education. As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has pointed out, there are schemes for apprentices, adult learners, schools, youth programmes and entrepreneurs. On that point, what is less heard and discussed is the implications of Erasmus for business. The Russell Group has spoken of the considerable opportunities in industry that Erasmus opens up for students on their return to the UK. If we are also to maintain our business links with Europe, it will become more important, not less, that young people learn and use languages such as French and German, an issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, will no doubt expand on.

I hope the Government will look at this objectively and understand that the loss of Erasmus would represent a significant overall loss in terms of the choices that students will have to study abroad. In those circumstances, where the choice remains it will be at a considerably greater cost, to the extent that for students from poorer backgrounds, that choice would disappear. That is an important point. Erasmus favours those from less privileged backgrounds, a point that has been well made by former participants.

One of the arguments that is put is that we can replace Erasmus with a global arrangement. We have such arrangements already, which Erasmus does not preclude. The loss of Erasmus would be a net loss for students, and a reduction of opportunities to study abroad and to broaden horizons. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that the loss of Erasmus would, in the Government’s own terminology, be a levelling down, not a levelling up. I earnestly hope that the Government will do everything to maintain our meaningful membership—that is, programme membership —of Erasmus. Surely this being an intention endorsed by Parliament will only strengthen our hand in negotiations with the EU. I fully support the amendment.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, I too have added my name to Amendment 38. Last week, after the vote in the House of Commons to reject a similar amendment, I was semi-encouraged by the statement issued by the Department for Education:

“The Government is committed to continuing the academic relationship between the UK and the EU, including through the next Erasmus+ programme if it is in our interests to do so.”


I hope I can offer some information and arguments today that will convince the Minister to go back and persuade the Government that it is indeed very much in our interests, and that they should think again and put their commitment to Erasmus+ in the Bill. As we have heard, the Prime Minister said only yesterday that there was no threat to Erasmus. If that is a genuine commitment, fantastic—there can be no reason why that cannot be irrefutably placed in the Bill. Otherwise, all that we actually know we can be sure of is that Erasmus is secure only until the end of 2020.

I have spoken several times before in your Lordships’ House on the importance of Erasmus in the context of the teaching and learning of modern foreign languages, but that is neither the whole picture nor the whole reason for needing to stick with the programme. It is also in the far broader interests of the UK, its economic resilience, its competitiveness and the employability of young people—and I do not just mean relatively privileged students. I understand from a press report in last Saturday’s Times that one of the Government’s reservations is that Erasmus is viewed as mainly benefiting middle-class students and that the money might be much better directed towards the schools budget. If accurate, this view shows a misunderstanding of the breadth, purpose and benefits of the Erasmus programme. I hope I can now shed some light on this, to assist the Government in looking again and changing their mind out of sheer self-interest.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Coussins]

The Minister put a lot of emphasis on the Government’s wish to see the offer to students be much broader than just European and to encourage students to go worldwide as well. Does he not acknowledge that the whole point of Erasmus+, as opposed to the original form of Erasmus—without the plus—now means that the programme includes the opportunity for UK students to take up their placements in their year off in countries that are outside the EU, as well as inside it? This is precisely because it is acknowledged that some students may well benefit from a placement in China, Brazil, Turkey or wherever. That is exactly what has been happening with Erasmus+.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I entirely accept what the noble Baroness says but the key principle here is that we cannot offer a blank cheque in the withdrawal Bill to say that we will automatically join a new programme where the details have still not been agreed. However, none of the mood music coming out, including what the Prime Minister said only 24 hours ago, suggests that we are going to turn our backs on the educational institutions of Europe. We want to be part of it. We are in a rapidly globalising world but the point that I want to make to everyone is that we cannot continue to slavishly focus on the EU. This is why we had the referendum and why, at the 2017 election, the manifestos of 85% of MPs supported leaving. We then had three years of chaos in Parliament and now we finally have a decent mandate to do it. That does not mean that we flounce out of Europe, or that we leave the culture and institutions of Europe. I am sure that we will work proactively to maintain close links.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment would ensure that there is parliamentary oversight of the UK’s participation in the next Erasmus programme. In Committee, I was taken with the strength of feeling from Members across the House about this jewel in our education system. I think the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, made the point that it is really important to young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, but it is also important for volunteering, studying, apprentices and so forth.

There was concern that there seemed to be mixed messages coming from the Government. On the one hand, we had a comment I think in Schools Week from the Secretary of State for Education, Gavin Williamson; on the other, we heard from our Prime Minister that there was no threat to the Erasmus programme. The Minister himself, in the wind-up to the debate, played a very straight bat in that he acknowledged the importance of this programme. He reminded us that those students who are engaged spent some time abroad as part of this programme; they are more likely to achieve better degree outcomes, to enhance their language skills and to improve their employment prospects. That is not something to throw away lightly.

The Minister also made the point that while we are committed to the current Erasmus programme, the next Erasmus programme will be part of negotiations. He reminded me recently that we are net contributors to the programme and so have some leverage in this. We understand that there are going to be discussions, that the Government support this programme and that they want to get the best possible deal for young people. We also understand that there are other programmes involving not just European countries but countries throughout the world. However, it would be helpful if the Minister indicated that your Lordships would give some sort of oversight to the work that goes on in securing the successor to the Erasmus programme. I beg to move.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, this is a very slimmed down amendment compared to what we debated in Committee last week. Nevertheless, it provides some degree of certainty that Erasmus would at least be a prominent and visible issue on the Government’s agenda as we negotiate the details of our departure from the EU over the next year. That should provide some comfort, especially to universities and all the young people aspiring and hoping to become students or apprentices over the next few years.

In Committee, the Minister put forward a couple of specific reasons for his caution about signing up as full members to the next stage of Erasmus+. One was that not enough information was yet available about what the next phase of Erasmus+ would look like, between 2021 and 2027. However, in my contribution to that debate I set out detailed information about exactly what the budget for the next phase would be. There is already an agreed budget with minute details of exactly how much would be allocated to specific areas of education and training, and to vocational activities. This is good enough for the 27 EU member states and for the six other countries that have signed up as non-EU members of Erasmus+, so I am still rather puzzled as to why it is not good enough for us, when we know that Erasmus has been so beneficial up to now.

The second reason advanced by the Minister was that the Government want to expand their mindset from being just Europe-focused to being more global. Absolutely right, but again, as I said in Committee, Erasmus+ does precisely that. The “plus” refers to the fact that the programme now enables students and other young people to take up placements, activities and projects across the world, not just within the EU. Erasmus+ is already completely in line with the policies and statements of Her Majesty’s Government as expressed in the last week by the Department for Education and the Prime Minister. Conversely, without Erasmus, we will do measurable and serious damage to education, trade, diplomacy, defence and security over the longer term. These are all areas where language skills are increasingly vital.

Erasmus+ and this amendment do absolutely nothing to frustrate this Bill or our departure from the European Union. Again, I ask the Government to be consistent with their own statements, and to be magnanimous and adopt this very modest amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I will not repeat what I said in Committee, but I support the amendment. More than that, I want to ask the Minister whether he can give a firm assurance that if a reasonable deal can be reached in the negotiations—I realise that no Government can give the ultimate commitment until the ink is dry—it would be the Government’s ambition to make the maximum possible part of Erasmus+ available to young people in the United Kingdom and to welcome young people from other parts of Europe and the rest of the world to the United Kingdom under the auspices of Erasmus+. It would reassure the House if a fairly firm indicator could be given tonight, and it would give us some comfort as we move ahead.