Gibraltar

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I should declare that I have visited Gibraltar previously, both before and immediately after the Brexit referendum. I am conscious that there has been a regrettable legacy of Brexit—which I note, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, did not, the people of Gibraltar rejected in almost equal numbers—for those who determined their own sovereignty. Indeed, the areas of difficulty and complexity that the people of Gibraltar had predicted as a result of leaving the EU came to pass.

The immediate response of one of the previous Government’s significant figures on the Conservative Benches in 2017 was from the noble Lord, Lord Howard, who said that we should send in the fleet but did not send in diplomatic forces to ensure that we would have an agreement for the benefit of the sovereignty, economy and people of Gibraltar. However, it is diplomatic measures rather than bravado that we hope have now ensured that there is a resolution to those difficult and complex issues.

I note that the Chief Minister’s letter to us all says that the agreement puts into place the 2020 border checks agreed by the previous Administration. Presumably, that was not the time when the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was Brexit Minister, but I suspect that the agreements under the previous Administration are the ones that the noble Lord is asking the Minister about now. I look forward to her response regarding those issues that are being disowned by the Conservative Party.

These Benches will look closely at the details and, if there are legislative measures required to operationalise the agreement, we will give them proper scrutiny. We hope that Parliament will have a considerable say in these issues.

It is worth rehearsing the principles. We on these Benches have an unshakable and irreducible support for the sovereignty of Gibraltar. The self-determination of the people of Gibraltar is irreducible, and any decisions made about Gibraltar need to be made with the participation of the people of Gibraltar. These are significant principles that I hope the Minister will agree with. As a result, our founding belief is that the tests for the agreement will have to meet those. But there are additional tests: do they protect the people of Gibraltar’s security interests, support its economy and contribute to the sensible economic relationship with Andalusia?

I have seen for myself the mutually beneficial relationship between Andalusia and Gibraltar. The UK/Gibraltar relationship and the residents of Gibraltar add considerably to the Spanish economy and to the Andalusian economy in particular, while Spanish workers, especially in health and social care, add considerably to support the services within Gibraltar. The human level of the relationship—the workers, the daily crossings —is therefore of considerable importance, so a workable and sensible arrangement is in their mutual interest and I hope we find that the Government have achieved that when we see all of the details. It was up to this Government to ensure that there was agreement after the almost eight years of inactivity from the previous Administration.

I will close by asking some specific questions of the Minister that the Foreign Secretary did not respond to with clarity in the House of Commons. Regrettably, we have known that, even though acting against their own interests, the Spanish Government have been willing to act unilaterally over Gibraltar, to the detriment not only of Gibraltarians but of their own residents. We therefore cannot predict what future Governments of Spain will be or the positions that they will take, so will the Minister outline what mechanisms exist in the deal to ensure compliance with those areas of agreement? Who will police it, what are the mechanisms of mediation and potential adjudication, and are effective dispute resolution mechanisms in place in the event of future possible unilateral actions? We hope that will not be necessary, but we have to plan for the contingency that it might. Given the experience of the past, giving Gibraltarians confidence that the deal will be enforceable is very important.

Finally, will the Minister confirm what the lifespan of the agreement will be? Will it include any mechanisms so that, if there are circumstances—again, we hope there will not be—where the people of Gibraltar believe that a different agreement and a new deal will be required, there is an opt-out mechanism? Ultimately, we believe in ensuring the ultimate guarantee of Gibraltar’s sovereignty. That should be at the heart of this agreement.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

I thank both noble Lords for their comments and questions. I have to say that the noble Lord opposite is slightly spikier in his approach to this than his friend in the other place, the shadow Foreign Secretary Priti Patel, who gave it a rather warmer tone of welcome than he did—but he is here to speak for the Opposition on those Benches.

I thank the noble Lord for reminding us of the importance of the sovereignty of Gibraltar, our long history and military ties to it and our base there. This deal achieves something that matters hugely to the Government and people of Gibraltar: the open border. There are 15,000 people crossing the border each day to go to work and to go about their lives. The delays and the problems that can occur, particularly as the EU looks towards implementing its entry and exit processes in a matter of months, make life very difficult for Gibraltarians, so it was important that we were able to reach a pragmatic agreement with the EU to enable daily life to continue.

As both noble Lords said, there needs to be proper oversight and scrutiny. There will be an opportunity for that to happen in both Houses under the CRaG process, which we are all now familiar with. We are aware of the debates around the strengths and flaws of this process, but we are legally obliged to follow it. Unless and until that changes, that is the process we will use.

The Chief Minister of Gibraltar has been incredibly forthcoming with his views on this and is happy with the outcome of the negotiations. There have been 19 rounds of negotiations to achieve this agreement. I think they started when Dominic Raab was Foreign Secretary and continued under James Cleverly and the noble Lord, Lord Cameron. They have now concluded. The Foreign Secretary has been very clear in paying tribute to the work of his predecessors in leading these negotiations. Given how complex this is, it has been a relatively smooth process. I also pay tribute to my friend Stephen Doughty, the Minister for Europe, for the role he has played in bringing this about.

On the role of the Spanish police, they will be doing Schengen checks. If noble Lords have been through St Pancras, they will have seen the double-layered checks. Those are to make sure that there is a check before someone enters the Schengen area. If an alert is triggered by that Schengen check, you will not be instantly lifted by Spanish police and taken to Malaga for interrogation; you will maintain your rights and have access to legal advice, as well as the option of returning to your departure airport if that is what you want to do.

I thank the noble Lord for raising the question on service personnel. I am happy to make clear that service personnel at the base are not going to need Schengen checks. This is about pragmatism; there is always a balance to be struck and trade-offs to be made in these circumstances, but the Chief Minister and the Government of Gibraltar, who will also have their own parliamentary process to look at this, are content that this is the right way to proceed. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is also meeting with members of the Gibraltarian opposition, to make sure that everybody is comfortable and that we can proceed.

The noble Lord asked how long this arrangement is intended to last. This does not have an end date. We want this to be the new normal, and for there to be certainty and clarity for the people of Gibraltar. Having an end date would not be conducive to that.

The contents of this agreement do not impact the sovereignty of Gibraltar in any way, and there is a clause that says that this agreement does not affect its sovereignty at all. As the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, pointed out, Spain has its view, but we are clear that Gibraltar is British. There is nothing in this agreement that affects the current status of Gibraltar, and Spain has agreed to that.

We have had no talks without the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, and I do not think the previous Government did either. It is clearly not tenable to have arrived at a position where we have an agreement between the UK and the EU that did not satisfy the leadership and people of Gibraltar, so we have made sure that that has been at the forefront of our work at all times.

I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, on sovereignty, self-determination and our unshakable commitment to the people of Gibraltar. He asked about dispute mechanisms and exit clauses. Yes, they will be included, and, as you would expect, the full text will be available. Should things deteriorate or something happen that we do not foresee—although I emphasise that we do not foresee this happening, because it is in the interests of all four parties of this agreement for this to work—there are clauses that make it possible for us to walk away unilaterally if the view is that that is in the best interests of the people of Gibraltar. But, as I say, we do not anticipate that being the case.

This is a good outcome for the people of Gibraltar, and they are pleased with it. We now have our process to go through; the Gibraltar Government have their process to go through too, and the full text will be made available. Generally, this has been a reasonably well-received outcome—including by the Opposition Benches in the other place—to a long and protracted set of negotiations that were in many ways inevitable following the vote to leave the European Union. For the sake of the people of Gibraltar, I am glad that we have almost resolved this.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I declare my interest, as listed in the register. I have been privileged to visit Gibraltar on many occasions as a member of the all-party group. I pay tribute to Chief Minister Fabian Picardo and his colleagues in His Majesty’s Government of Gibraltar for their hard work over many years in reaching this agreement, which has the support of all four parties involved in the negotiations.

Can the Minister confirm that Gibraltar will retain full control over its own border checks, and that the agreement will not place any additional barriers in the way of UK passport holders wishing to visit our deeply cherished friends on the Rock?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will start by echoing the noble Lord’s comments about Fabian Picardo. He has worked tirelessly on this and is satisfied with the outcome we have reached.

Gibraltar will have its own checks that it will undertake. There will also be Schengen checks that, as I say, are similar to those at St Pancras, but, unless an alert is triggered on the Schengen Information System, there should be no issues. If an alert is triggered, a person would have the opportunity to take legal advice and make a decision about their onward travel. That is an agreement that Gibraltar is happy with; it is a good compromise and something that will serve the people of Gibraltar well.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I very much support what the noble Lord has just said. I am also a member of the Anglo-Gibraltar group, and I go very regularly to Gibraltar. I have visited Gibraltar ever since I was 18, so I know it extremely well. I also happen to know—as we do as Members—the Chief Minister very well. I am absolutely delighted that he is pleased with it. I share what the Minister and the noble Lord have said about the huge amount of work that he and other Ministers do. Quite simply, I congratulate the two Governments, Conservative and Labour, on the hard work they have put in and the successful result.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have visited Gibraltar as well, and I echo everything the noble and learned Baroness had to say. This has been the work of many years and many Foreign Secretaries. It proves that sometimes, when we knuckle down and focus on the outcome that must be achieved for the people of Gibraltar, we can get there with relatively little fuss and drama.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome this Statement and support very much my noble friend Lord Callanan’s comments and questions for clarification. I too have been visiting Gibraltar for many decades, in my initial job and when I was a Member of the European Parliament, so I am aware that, certainly post-Brexit, there have been some issues and some need for clarification in certain areas. I met regularly with Gibraltarian officials and Ministers regarding airspace use and other issues of that nature. Nevertheless, we need to remember that Spain continues to assert its claim over Gibraltar, and it has never ever backed off from that.

On the comparison to how we get to the continent, to France or Belgium, using the Eurostar system—namely, with a French immigration officer—it is not the same at all, because you go through that control and then into an EU country. My concern, which we need clarification on, is that I read that a Spanish immigration officer or police officer—whatever you want to call them—will check the British passports of British passport holders and can refuse entry to that British citizen going into a British sovereign territory. That is the difference: we have a Spanish officer refusing a British citizen going into a British Overseas Territory. I would really like some clarification on that.

I would obviously welcome seeing the detail that my noble friend asked for on a number of these issues —the devil is always in the detail. Of course, what is important is that the Gibraltarian Government and the citizens of Gibraltar continue to realise that we, as the United Kingdom, will certainly always watch their backs. Should anything arise that is a bit untoward through these negotiations, we need to make sure that we are diligent in the oversight that takes place.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We simply differ in our view with regard to sovereignty with our friends and allies in Spain. Nothing in this agreement changes the status of the sovereignty of Gibraltar—we are very clear about that. Spain understands that, and that is reflected in the treaty. It was really important that we made sure that that was the case, because we do not want any questions about Gibraltarian sovereignty to arise out of this.

Of course this is different: when you get on the Eurostar, you go into Kent and then into France, but there are similar checks. The point is that it is not a full immigration process. This is about a Schengen check, so it is an alert about whether an outstanding warrant or criminality issue would be triggered. You would not immediately lose all your rights, be arrested or anything like that. You would have the option of going and answering the questions that may arise as a result of that trigger, or of taking legal advice and/or returning to your country of departure. This is a compromise; I accept that. It is very unusual, but this is an unusual circumstance. This is necessary to make sure that border stays open. That was the whole point of what we were trying to negotiate and what we have been trying to achieve. That is what has been achieved.

If the people of Gibraltar are front and centre of all this, as everybody has said, we need to listen to what they and their representatives are saying about this agreement. They are very warmly in support of it. I will listen to them, and if it gets to the point where they are no longer of that view then, clearly, we would have to think again. They have been involved every step of the way. We have done nothing about them without them—we would not do that—and they are pleased with this agreement. It will make such a difference to their daily lives, their prosperity and the way they are able to live and to travel backwards and forwards. The 15,000 people crossing that border every day can do so freely, without any concerns about the border being closed or any of that. This is a big win for the Gibraltarians, and I welcome it.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s Statement very warmly, and I declare an interest: I was involved, as a senior official in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in getting the Franco-imposed controls on the borders, which did such damage to Gibraltar, lifted well before Spain joined the European Union. I was rather surprised, as was the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, mentioned one vote—it is quite correct to do so—which was the vote of the Gibraltarians to remain part of Britain, but he did not mention the other vote: the huge 90% vote by which they voted to stay in the European Union. That, of course, was quite correctly overridden by the wider vote in this country, but it cast Gibraltar into nine years of uncertainty, anxiety and worry that things would not work out. An apology is due there from all those who were responsible for that action.

I will ask two questions. First, is it the case that, with luck and a bit of hope, this agreement will also facilitate the Government’s process of resetting the agreements we have with the European Union, in particular the one dealing with the security compact, which we hope will now go ahead at full speed? Secondly, will the noble Baroness perhaps convey to the Chief Minister of Gibraltar the very warm words from these Benches and others in this House about the remarkable patience and perseverance with which he pursued what is, in my view, an extremely valuable agreement for the Gibraltarians themselves? It would be right that he should hear words of praise from those of us who have contributed less than he has to this process.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his work in the past regarding Gibraltar, which I did not know about. We will absolutely make sure that Fabian is made aware of the warmest of words that have been said in this Chamber and the other place about the tireless work that he has undertaken on behalf of the people of Gibraltar, over very many years, to make sure that their interests are reflected in the agreement that we have now made.

I will not get into the whole relitigating of Brexit; I think we are all a bit exhausted with all that. As the noble Lord says, there is now a reset of the EU relationship, which shows what can be achieved with patience and pragmatism and when there is a focus on the people rather than, perhaps, some of our ideological hobby-horses. That is the approach that this Government have taken to this issue and will take to all issues regarding our relationship with the EU. It is important that we restore our relationships, that we co-operate on things such as security, that we get our SPS agreement sorted out and that we can work together on the challenges we face, such as illegal migration, climate change and the challenges to our economies. These are all things that we need to address together in that spirit of openness and pragmatism. That is far more profitable for the people of this country as well.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. In fact, I agree with everything she has said, with one exception: she implied that negotiations started under Dominic Raab as Foreign Secretary. I took part in three negotiations over Gibraltar Airport, the first of which was for Foreign Secretary Geoffrey Howe, so the stone in the shoe has been there for a very long time. I think it has been rather elegantly removed. The solution looks to be a very good one.

I know that the duty of an Opposition is to oppose—or so it is said—but I thought the Opposition Front Bench spoke slightly ungraciously about the deal. The officials who worked very hard for them on the early stages of this negotiation, particularly Vijay Rangarajan, have not been thanked in the same way that the Foreign Secretary—in my view quite correctly—thanked the officials who had completed the task that Vijay and his colleagues were doing when the Opposition Front Bench spokesman here tonight was their boss.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I bow to the noble Lord’s experience and knowledge. Clearly, this has been going on for very many years; he is right to remind us of that. He is also right to say that there are teams of officials who work on this and other similar matters with expertise and diligence. I have seen officials coming back from one round of talks on something and then having to go out again the following week, spending time away from their families. It is their job; they are paid to do it, and they do not complain. But it is right to underscore our appreciation when things like this are achieved.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

The Minister said that this agreement would be subject to approval. We have not seen the detail, but I want to know what would happen if there were a different Government—for instance in Spain—who might take a different attitude. Is there something there to protect the situation? Is there some arbitration? Once people get their foot in the door the bureaucracy can be more difficult: they can refuse this, that and the other, and quite a bit of nastiness could develop at the point of entry. I am sure that has been taken into account, and I hope that when the minutiae are available, we will be able to confirm that. It would be helpful if the Minister could address that.

The other thing I want to do is to gently remind the Minister that she has said twice now that negotiations had been taking place and that the people of Gibraltar, through their First Minister, were represented at each stage—quite properly. I just gently remind her that when the Governments were negotiating the Windsor Framework and related matters, our representatives were not present.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

If the noble Lord thinks I am getting back into the Windsor Framework and all that—I am sorry, but not tonight. He is right to say that there is the possibility, with a change of Government here or in Spain, or even in Gibraltar, that different approaches may be favoured in the future. As we would always expect in this type of deal, there will be some dispute mechanisms. Ultimately, although I genuinely do not expect this to happen, and I hope for the sake of the people of Gibraltar that this never happens, there is the possibility for either party unilaterally to end the agreement. However, we do not anticipate that happening. This is a good outcome for the people of Gibraltar.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, as we still have some time, perhaps I could ask for some further clarification from the Minister. First, she said on a couple of occasions that the checks the Spanish officials will do at the border will be Schengen checks. Is she therefore saying that Gibraltar will be joining Schengen, that it will be part of Schengen? I believe that in the other place the Foreign Secretary said that it will not. The second question flows from that. Under the current Schengen arrangements, a British citizen and passport holder is allowed to spend only 90 out of 180 days in the Schengen area. Is the Minister therefore saying that a British passport holder who may own property in Gibraltar—many do—will be able to spend only 90 days out of 180 in Gibraltar, even if they never set foot in Spain? These are important points. The detail matters with these things, and of course, we have not seen the agreement yet. The other question is one that she did not answer in her initial contribution. Can she tell us when we will actually see the agreement?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We will see the agreement as soon as it is ready. Gibraltar is not joining Schengen. Gibraltar residents will not be subject to this. As for the 90 days, the noble Lord is right that that is part of this agreement.