Baroness Burt of Solihull
Main Page: Baroness Burt of Solihull (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Postal Services Bill
Baroness Burt of Solihull Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Ian Murray
We are proposing protection for the post office network in any fashion, which the Minister point blank refuses to give, even though his Back Benchers are asking him to consider it through the new clause.
In Committee, the Minister said:
“No previous Government have thought to put it on any different footing.”
However, no other Government have needed to intervene on the inter-business agreement because no other Government have separated the post office network from Royal Mail, which is what will happen under this full-scale privatisation. He has tried to reassure stakeholders by arguing that both Royal Mail and the Post Office want an extended inter-business agreement. As has been said, the stated aims of the management of Royal Mail and the Post Office are to keep the relationship, but to be frank, management changes rather quickly and regularly. We need more reassurance in the Bill, rather than words from the management of Royal Mail and the Post Office. The Minister went on to argue in his evidence to the Committee:
“If you actually wrote that there should be a contract between two companies that are going to be separate companies into law, I think that it would be subject to serious legal challenge.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 11 November 2010; c. 121-123, Q244-245.]
He therefore admitted that there will be no inter-business agreement going forward and that the post office network is essentially being hung out to dry by this legislation, along with the Royal Mail and tens of thousands of workers.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
My understanding, on which I stand to be corrected, is that the problem is not that the two companies want to have an inter-business agreement—they are free to do that—but that EU rules prohibit Governments from intervening to ensure that an inter-business agreement is prescribed for a specific period. I believe that that is the problem with the new clause.
Ian Murray
But as we have already discussed, Germany seems to have found a loophole in that legislation, so I do not see why we should not be able to find a way forward for an inter-business agreement in this country. It would be up to the Minister and the Government to find a way around that problem and ensure that the post office network was maintained for the future.
Ian Murray
As I said in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), nothing astonishes me about the Liberal Democrats these days. Indeed, blaming the European Union is one of their latest wheezes as they break their pledges and proposals and change their philosophy.
The National Federation of SubPostmasters believes that a minimum 10-year inter-business agreement is essential, and it knows about the matter having worked with its members, postmasters and postmistresses across the country. That organisation, which is at the coal face, says that such an inter-business agreement would protect its members, and I think it is telling the truth in this particular matter and giving us the evidence that we need that agreement.
Today we are seeing a disgraceful privatisation of one of the country’s, and the world’s, treasures. The Royal Mail is not safe in the hands of this shameful Government, and the Bill in its current form will decimate the post office network in this country.
Lorely Burt
I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) and with everyone else in the House who wishes to protect the relationship between the Royal Mail and the Post Office. We all want that relationship to continue, but I have severe reservations about whether we can enforce that through Government legislation.
If we examine the situation between the two companies, we will see that they rely on one another. There will continue to be a long-term contract in place between them because there will remain an overwhelming commercial imperative for the two businesses to work together as they do now. The chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, has said that it is “unthinkable” that there will not always be a very strong relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail. However, legislation is not the appropriate way for the commercially sensitive terms of a relationship between two independent businesses to be settled.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The hon. Lady says that legislation is not the appropriate way to make provisions about commercial relationships, but surely it is the appropriate way to make provisions to guarantee public services and public service standards.
Lorely Burt
I hope that the hon. Gentleman would agree that there is a guarantee of public services built into the Bill.
The Government are not party to the current arrangements between the two businesses, and they will not be in future. There is no statutory precedent for requiring particular commercial terms between two independent businesses. What the Government can do, however, is help to create the conditions in which both businesses can flourish in partnership with one another. We have heard this afternoon about the £1.3 billion funding package that is being provided to post offices, which will help the Post Office to deliver the best possible service to its new business partner.
The hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) mentioned the EU, and I will surprise him again by saying that we in this House are to blame for the EU legislation that has come forward. We have gold-plated the EU directive and created an uncompetitive situation by giving private companies compulsory access to Royal Mail and guaranteeing a margin for competitors. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester mentioned the loss that is made on each competitor’s letter; 2.5p is lost with the delivery of a competitor’s letter.
Malcolm Bruce
Most of us have visited post offices in recent weeks. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Royal Mail is delivering a huge amount of mail on behalf of other carriers, and that if it did not provide that service, those carriers could not provide their customer guarantees? It is imperative that they pay a fair price for that service, and the Bill may create the space in which that can happen.
Lorely Burt
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is shameful that Royal Mail’s demise has been caused partly by the fact that we have gold-plated the rules that have come down from the EU.
Tom Blenkinsop
I think we are getting slightly confused about the matter. There is cherry-picking within Royal Mail, with which I personally do not agree, and the report that members of the Bill Committee considered before our sittings recommended that the practice should be got rid of. However, that should not be a defence for what the Government are doing, which will undermine internal business arrangements. They have created a smokescreen of European legislation for what they are doing, but in fact the Government make 10-year agreements with rail companies, for example.
Lorely Burt
I am struggling to answer the hon. Gentleman’s point, because it is a bit technical. I am looking over towards my hon. Friend the Minister, and I am sure that he will make a better fist of giving an answer.
Mr Russell Brown
I hear what the hon. Lady is saying about the UK gold-plating EU legislation, but when the liberalisation first started, and in fact beforehand, a number of Labour Members—we were then in government—spoke to Ministers and met the regulator. The liberalisation that the regulator was committed to carrying out in a five-year period was driven through far too quickly, and it actually happened in 18 months. There was great concern, but the problem was that if we had been seen to be interfering with the job of the regulator, we would have been severely criticised.
Lorely Burt
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, and I have a great deal of sympathy with it. It is a great shame that that happened, but now we have to pave the way for a change in how the rules operate, and the Bill will empower Ofcom to examine how the regulations in question apply.
As far as I understand it—I am sure the Minister will comment on this—current EU rules do not allow specific periods to be imposed on inter-business agreements. Donald Brydon pledged in his evidence to the Public Bill Committee that before any privatisation of Royal Mail, a continued long-term commercial contract would be in place between the two businesses for the longest duration that was legally possible. I do not know whether 10 years is the right period, but that decision has to be made between the two organisations. I know that there is a great will in Royal Mail to ensure that there is an inter-business agreement between the two parties that guarantees a safe, secure and productive future together.
Mr Weir
Let me remark in passing that I have spent many years standing in this spot defending post offices. It is somewhat disconcerting to find after the general election that, with a few honourable exceptions, everybody else has changed sides, while I am still standing in the same place, making the same point. However, it is good to see the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) come at least partly back into the light. We shall be supporting his new clause 2 this evening if he pushes it to a vote, which I hope he will.
Mark Durkan
I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. The proposed agreement would make a difference not just for the individual business people who make a commitment to individual post offices, but collectively for the network and for those who will have responsibility for the broader Post Office enterprise in future. It is meant to give a period of confidence and space, to reduce the unknowns and to give at least some stability and reliability regarding some of the knowns in that context. It would not solve all the other problems—and there are many other issues and challenges—but it would at least give people some measure of assurance.
Lorely Burt
I think we are all on the same page in wanting a long agreement. Donald Brydon has said that he would push for the longest agreement possible, so I am not too sure why hon. Members are so worried about the fact that we are trying to impose a 10-year agreement on two businesses for which 10 years may or may not be an optimum time.
Mark Durkan
We are not worried about why we should impose an agreement of 10 years; most of us are worried about why the Government would not impose an agreement of 10 years. If someone says they want the maximum agreement possible, it is entirely reasonable for us as a legislative body to say that 10 years is a reasonable period. Given that the legislation is going to construct new realities and impose new conditions on these businesses, we at least have a duty and responsibility to make sure that one of them can have a measure of confidence that it will not have if this new clause is not accepted.
Lorely Burt
My understanding is that the inter-business agreement will come into place before any agreement is signed between Royal Mail and whoever takes over.
Nia Griffith
As I understand it, there is an existing IBA. The question is: what is the timetable for the privatisation of the Royal Mail? How much of the existing IBA will be left? If we are arguing that an existing IBA can be carried over, surely an existing IBA of a different length could also be carried over. Although we currently have one that is worth probably a couple of years at most, by the time the privatisation procedure has gone through, there could be a new and different IBA. Indeed, there could be a 10-year IBA. We have already heard from the Minister that it is possible to have all sorts of businesses entering into agreements. We know that there are 10-year rail franchises, for example. There are all sorts of different takeover bids—when companies take over other companies, they have all sorts of contractors working for them—so there can clearly also be a takeover of an inter-business agreement. We are asking the Minister for a guarantee that it will be a 10-year agreement. What we are asking for is not rocket science; it is something that I am sure he will want to do. Indeed, if we can be persuasive enough, I am sure that he might even consider it, but we shall see.
If that can be done and a privatised Royal Mail can be expected to honour the existing agreement, what has the Minister done to explore the option of putting in place a longer-lasting inter-business agreement, such as a 10-year agreement? Perhaps he will be able to tell us later what he has done. What will he do to put that in place before privatising the Royal Mail? Has he looked at examples of business takeovers where the buyer has taken over the existing commitments of the company that it has acquired? Simply telling the Committee and now the House that it cannot be done, without even exploring the options, suggests a fundamental unwillingness to take every possible step to secure the future of the post office network.
The Minister seems to think that it would be good enough to rely on the good will of those concerned. Indeed, he tried to assure the Committee by saying:
“I refer the Committee to what the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, and Donald Brydon, the chairman, said. Moya Greene said it was unthinkable that there would not be a long-term relationship between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. Donald Brydon said that he wanted to have the longest possible legally permissible agreement”.––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 11 November 2010; c. 121-22, Q244.]
However, what has the Minister done to turn that good will into practical action? Has he had talks with the chief executive and chairman of Royal Mail about securing a longer inter-business agreement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd before privatisation? What mechanisms has he explored for doing that? It also has to be said that Moya Greene may not be there for ever. What happens if we have a new chief executive or chairman? I have every belief in the sincerity of their words, but we all know that words are not enough. What we need in business are agreements in writing, so that we know what we are talking about.
The Minister also said that consideration had not been given to the matter before. No, it has not, quite simply because when we were in government, we always intended to keep Royal Mail in majority public ownership, so it would not have been separated from the post office network in the way that it will be if the Government privatise it. Therefore, there was simply no need to consider the future of the IBA in that way.
The National Federation of SubPostmasters is clear that it needs a 10-year IBA as an absolute minimum. That will be fundamental to providing security, so that business will be viable for the 97% of post offices that are owned by a sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress. They are the people who have taken on post offices, investing considerable amounts of their own money to set them up at a time when the inter-business agreement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd was taken for granted. They would never have dreamt that post offices could face losing Royal Mail business and, with it, the money that accounts for a third of their revenue.
Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses will have welcomed the Government announcement to continue the subsidy of the post office network. Indeed, they may be hoping to benefit from some of the money that is being put aside for the refurbishment of post offices. However, they will also be scrutinising the BIS document “Securing the Future of the Post Office in the Digital Age” to see whether they can find anything that guarantees more Government business to post offices, when we have PayPoint challenging the Post Office for the Department for Work and Pensions contract for benefit checks. Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses will also be looking carefully to see whether there are any strategies for channelling new types of business through the Post Office, now that the Government have abandoned Labour’s plans for a people’s bank at the Post Office—yet another Lib-Dem manifesto promise broken.
Most of all, however, sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses will be worried about the future of the IBA, because they know how much the future viability of their business depends on their continuing to provide services for Royal Mail. Indeed, the IBA covers more than just the counter services. As the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) pointed out, it deals with sorting facilities in shared premises in some areas. Specific guarantees that business with the Royal Mail will continue are wanted. If someone has invested considerable amounts of money in a business that included Royal Mail services, they would be concerned about whether they could sell their business as a going concern when they decided to retire or move on. They would be very worried about the price they might get if there were no IBA with the Royal Mail, and there would be a real problem in attracting new entrants.
Even without considering the potential loss of the IBA, the Rural Shops Alliance, in the winter edition of its journal Rural Retailer, expresses this view of Government plans to convert post offices to the Post Office local model:
“The logic of this is obvious, but it will involve a reduction in product ranges, longer PO opening hours and a reduction in income—not a model that will encourage subpostmasters to remain as part of the network. It is great that the Government is promising a no closure programme—it cannot however promise that it will be financially worthwhile for anybody to provide PO services.”
That is the case even without considering the catastrophic effect that the loss of the IBA would have on the prospects of post offices and the chances of attracting new entrants.
George Thomson of the National Federation of SubPostmasters told us that there are currently 900 vacancies where Post Office Ltd is struggling to find someone to take on a local post office. It is no good dismissing this as just the regular turnover. I know for a fact from my own constituency—I am sure that other hon. Members do, too—just how long some of those vacancies have been there and how depressing it is for those local communities without their post offices, with some pensioners having to face very awkward and time-consuming bus journeys to access their pensions.
With the prospect that the Post Office could lose the IBA, how on earth is Post Office Ltd going to attract new entrants? Why would anybody want to undertake the not inconsiderable task of establishing themselves as a sub-postmaster, with all the training and investment involved, with the prospect of the Post Office losing the IBA hanging over them?
Consumer Focus has also raised concerns about the impact of the loss of the IBA. It said in written evidence to the Public Bill Committee that
“following privatisation of Royal Mail, subsequent contracts would require a competitive tender process with no guarantee that Post Office Ltd would retain this contract”.
It continued by pointing out that
“for the foreseeable future, the loss of the mail’s contract, even on a partial basis, would significantly undermine the integrity of the post office network. Even if the Royal Mail continued to use the PO in rural areas only, the ability of the network to cross-subsidise from its profitable urban branches would be lost. The future of many post offices, particularly the 6,515 post offices in rural areas, would therefore be in doubt. This would not only threaten access to mail services, but also to the range of services of economic and social interest available through the PO network.”
That is the viewpoint of Consumer Focus, and I am sure we would all agree that it should be listened to.
Many hon. Members have made some good and useful points today. My hon. Friends the Members for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) and for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who both have an excellent track record in standing up for post offices, each made a vigorous and impassioned defence of the post office network.
The hon. Member for Northampton South mentioned the importance of the social role of the Post Office—how people get help from it and how community networking and social work take place. He also mentioned that it is not only older citizens, but young mums who can benefit from the community and help that can be found through the post office. The hon. Gentleman said, “Woe betide any elected Member who ignores the importance of the local post office to the fabric of the community.” He also mentioned the role of the additional 900 post offices that act as mail sorting areas and the problem of post office vacancies and the difficulty of finding new entrants to take on post offices.
My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) reminded us that there are other countries where the Post Office is protected in law. The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) raised the issue of the need for regulatory reform—something on which we would all agree. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) said that everything simply cannot be left to warm words. He pointed out that we simply do not know how long the current managers will remain in their posts. He also drew attention to the staggering range of products and services that are now available through supermarkets, which would not have been dreamt of only a few years ago.