Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

Forgive me. I am looking at a slightly out-of-date document. Anyway, that is the area that I would be interested to understand from the Minister. We will come to other amendments another time.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I too welcome the return of the Bill. It is quite interesting to reflect back to the first and second days in Committee, when we were recording the hottest temperatures that we had ever experienced in this country and were making full use of that experience. We were also in the midst of the leadership contest and questioning the commitment of the candidates; we had no way of knowing, of course, that both of them would take their turn in No. 10 and have the ability to demonstrate their commitment.

We are really pleased to see the return of the Bill. We were concerned that there would be changes and, as we said on the first two days in Committee, there are some measures in this Bill that are urgent and that we need to get a move on with in order to address the challenges that we face in this space.

I do not have an enormous amount to add to the Minister’s very full comments. I just seek clarification. When I see an amendment on consultation, I am always slightly concerned to know who exactly would come into the sphere of consultation and make sure that it is as full as it could be. The issues around making sure that the fund remains sufficient are very practical and necessary. With that plea for clarification on consultation, I am happy to leave it there.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their remarks. I will start with the noble Baroness’s final question. As set out in the Government’s response to that consultation, it is expected that the owners of the asset will submit their assessment of the decommissioning liability to the Offshore Petroleum Regulator for Environment and Decommissioning for verification. This verification will include consultation with the North Sea Transition Authority, which will be able to compare the assessment against its extensive benchmarking data. OPRED will also be able to engage third parties to provide its own assessment if necessary. Once OPRED is satisfied that the assessment is accurate, it will advise the Secretary of State on approving the amount. That is the advice route that the Secretary of State would take.

In response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, transport and storage companies will hold the decommissioning funds, but will be overseen by the economic and operational regulators. Funds to cover decommissioning costs will be included in the allowed revenue paid to the transport and storage company. The proportion of revenue to be paid into the decommissioning fund will be determined by the economic regulator once the decommissioning liability has been calculated. I hope that that deals with that satisfactorily—clearly not.

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[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, in her two Amendments 130A and 130B and stress that the measurement, monitoring and verification of UK removals is vital. I declare an interest as chairman of the Woodland Trust. I have just been involved in the bowels of the woodland carbon code. It is quite staggering to think that many of these verified units of removal will not achieve full verification for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years and are then required to persist for 100 years. We have to find a way of inventing a system that will keep an eye on a plethora of landowners and land interests who are planting trees to sequester carbon and have that effective supervision, light-touch as it may be, for 100 years.

This will be quite a challenge. It is something I would appreciate the Minister responding to. We are now in the middle of implementing the peat carbon code, which will have similar difficulties, but perhaps the most important one has not yet been developed: the soils carbon code. That is of far more potential than either the peatland or woodland carbon codes in sequestering carbon. It will be a very widespread code because soils exist everywhere, though not all of them will be potentially good at sequestering carbon. I urge the Minister to accept these two amendments and give us a feel, as it were, of those 100 years and how the complexity of the carbon codes can be relied upon.

Before I finish, I make a similar apology to that of my noble friend Lord Whitty, as I was not here to speak to my Amendment 119. I did not miscalculate the pace at which the Bill would go; I was miscalculating the pace at which a snowed-in train would move. Since the Minister is appearing before the Environment and Climate Change Committee on Wednesday, I can ask him the question then anyway.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

This has become a very rich debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for putting her amendments forward to enable us to have these broader discussions. We have said from the start that the difficulty with this Bill is the things that are not in it; this is one area we can all learn from and hopefully move forward on.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for the explanation of her Amendments 130A and 130B. I am sure that we would all welcome more clarity in these areas, and indeed a strategy so that we can bring confidence and certainty to the sector in the way that she described.

I will focus most on Amendment 124A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in my comments and, in particular, the notion of adding local carbon transport schemes to the section on low-carbon heat schemes—indeed, to run alongside them.

As many will know, this was last looked at under the last Labour Government, with the 2009 report Low Carbon Transport: A Greener Future, which, interestingly, was published by the DfT. It made recommendations on supporting a shift to new technologies and fuels, promoting lower-carbon choices, and using market mechanisms to encourage a shift to lower-carbon transport. Of course we have moved on in many ways, but these principles should not be overlooked and we should continue to put in our full effort.

Specifically on hydrogen vehicles, we believe there is merit in looking at potential in the HGV sector. The discussions about shipping were interesting as well, but we feel that so much more focus needs to be put on alternatives, certainly in the short-term. Electric is obviously being looked at.

It is important to debate this at this point because, with the global situation regarding gas supplies, we are focusing our attention on domestic energy in particular, for obvious reasons—the cost of living crisis, security issues and all that goes with it—but we have to bear in mind that transport is one of the biggest sources of carbon emissions in the UK. In 2019, it accounted for 34% of the UK’s total carbon emissions. Its emissions have remained largely unchanged since the 1990s, which we cannot say about the energy supply generally. We have to ask why transport is such a poor performer.

We need to be concerned about where we get the electricity from if we continue with our ambition. If we are to reach our target of net-zero emissions by 2050, the decision to ban new petrol and diesel cars from 2030 will help, but there are so many other areas that we should focus on: alternative modes of transport, cycling and walking, and shared travel options. From my point of view, we have this enormous disconnect between transport policy and the policy we are discussing. We need to pick it up and take it seriously.

I speak with my experience of being a member of Transport for the North. All the schemes we tried to bring in through the integrated rail plan to deliver not only for the travelling public but for the impact on the climate seem to have been left behind. We have discussed this before. We have had Questions in the Chamber about the lack of joined-up thinking from the Government, which needs seriously to be addressed. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to it as a lack of leadership and vagueness in the plan, but why are we not cross-referencing within the Bill to the work that needs to be done?

Speaking with my local government hat on, on building new homes, why can we not look at the schemes in Scandinavia in particular, where every new home has solar panels and the excess electricity generated is taken off and fed into personal electric charging points for vehicles? There are so many examples that we should look at.

The amendment has generated an opportunity to discuss this. I look forward to the Minister’s response to the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, but in particular to her explanation as to why there is such a lack of joined-up thinking in these areas, where the potential could be enormous.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who participated in the debate, particularly those who tabled amendments.

I will speak first to Amendment 124A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, but I must start by taking issue with the idea that the Government are not showing leadership. I believe that they are showing leadership with low-carbon transport solutions. For example, this year alone we have announced £200 million for the zero-emission road freight demonstrator programme, which includes hydrogen and electrification for HGVs; another £200 million for zero-emission buses, again including both hydrogen and pure electric; £30 million for a fleet of 124 buses in the West Midlands; £206 million for the UK Shipping Office for Reducing Emissions—or UK SHORE—to decarbonise maritime, which includes a mix of different technologies; and up to £12 million until August 2023 and up to £60 million until March 2025 for the second and third rounds of the clean maritime demonstration competition, funding feasibility studies and pre-deployment trials in zero-emission shipping hydrogen technologies for maritime applications. As the noble Baroness will be aware, there is also £20 million for phase 2 of the Tees Valley hydrogen transport hub, with an additional £300,000 put forward to support local skills.

On aviation, the SR21 funding for hydrogen-related aviation activity has not yet been announced but is forthcoming. We have also announced £165 million for the advanced fuels fund to kick-start a sustainable aviation fuel industry in the UK.

All this goes to demonstrate that we are doing a lot of work to show leadership in this area, putting money into research to help us solve some of the problems raised in this debate. Work is already under way in the Department for Transport in close collaboration with BEIS; it is really helpful that the former Secretary of State for Transport is now the Secretary of State for BEIS, so he will be very well versed in some of these issues. I can reassure noble Lords of the continual conversation that happens between the two departments in this regard. In close collaboration with BEIS, as set out in the Government’s transport decarbonisation plan, the Department for Transport is delivering on its comprehensive plan for decarbonising transport, which includes supporting a greater role for hydrogen through schemes such as those I have mentioned.

As we have seen, there is a significant role for hydrogen in heavier transport applications or where things such as refuelling times and infrastructure constraints make it the best choice. However, we do not consider that a new statutory, regulatory regime would add anything new to the work already being done. It is always necessary to consider whether the benefit outweighs the regulatory burden. I hope that the noble Baroness is reassured by the Government’s commitment to this cause, and I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

Amendment 130A seeks to limit the definition of “UK removals” in Section 29 of the Climate Change Act, excluding mechanisms such as financial instruments that do not relate to the physical removal of greenhouse gases in the UK. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, that Clause 111 does not expand the definition of “UK removals” to non-physical processes, but instead to greenhouse gas removals achieved by engineered methods, such as bioenergy with carbon capture and storage. This is to align the definition with current international best practice, including guidelines set out by the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

I equally reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that it is the Government’s priority to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities and to adapt to those climate change impacts that are unavoidable. We are clear that the purpose of greenhouse gas removals is to balance the residual emissions from sectors that are unlikely to achieve full decarbonisation by 2050. It is not a substitute for decisive action across the economy to reduce emissions. Nature-based methods, such as afforestation and habitat restoration, will be essential in removing and storing carbon dioxide at scale while delivering a range of additional environmental benefits, such as biodiversity gain, air quality and soil health.

The Climate Change Act 2008 allows the Government to purchase off-sets or other traded instruments to set towards our emission reduction targets. The Government do not currently intend to purchase off-sets to set towards our carbon budgets, although they have retained the option to do so in future, if appropriate. I can see that I shall never manage to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.