Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 25th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear introduction and positive engagement so far. This has certainly helped ease me into my first speech at Second Reading, and I hope that this constructive approach can continue, not simply for my benefit but to ensure that we end up with an improved Bill. Although I may still not know my way around the House or fully appreciate its quirks and traditions, what is clear to me is the benefits that will flow from recognising professional qualifications for public services and the wider economy.

Enabling regulators to recognise qualifications drives up standards of practice, gives confidence to UK employees and consumers and improves contracts for workers. It also allows people to move to the UK to fill gaps in our labour market and enrich our communities. As a former board member of NHS Leeds, I know how much the NHS, for example, depends on those workers. Last year, those who were non-British included 169,000 NHS staff in England—about 14% of all staff—122,000 staff on the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s register and 247,000 staff in social care. We are hugely grateful to those key workers, especially for their efforts during the pandemic. This support would not have been possible without the recognition of professional qualifications. The Bill also facilitates the recognition of UK qualifications in other countries so that British citizens can seek to work abroad.

I remind the Minister of the Government’s central promise in their Explanatory Notes that

“nothing in the Bill prevents, qualifies or otherwise impacts the ability of those with existing recognised qualifications from continuing their areas of practice in the UK”.

We will be holding him to that throughout the Bill’s passage. We cannot clap for carers today, then strip them of qualifications tomorrow. My noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath will outline some of the concerns raised by the GMC and others on drafting that covers asking regulators to assess qualifications to be “substantially the same” as UK qualifications. I acknowledge the Minister’s intention to bring forward amendments in this area.

This legislation is needed to replace EU law so that we can ensure that we have the skills to keep our economy going. This new framework replaces the interim system which was set up for EEA and Swiss professions. We recognise that this is the next step in our departure from the EU. Although we will be seeking quite a few clarifications and assurances, Labour’s approach to the Bill will be broadly threefold.

First, regulators must remain independent and autonomous—nothing in the Bill must undermine their standing. Their independence is essential to maintain UK standards—for example in health, public safety and consumer protection. Their expertise allows the right calls to be made when approving qualifications and recognising when more training is required, and their decisions must be accepted and respected. We cannot get into a position where the Government pressure bodies to accept professional qualifications to, for example, clinch a trade deal with Australia.

This independence could also be threatened if regulators are not properly supported. The impact assessment states that most costs will fall to regulators, and the Government estimate the cost to regulators of transition and the new framework to be about £2 million per year, as well as additional costs for new transparency requirements. Therefore, will the Minister answer the following initial questions? Can he confirm that regulations created under the Bill, especially Clauses 1 and 3, can never force regulators to accept specific qualifications? Could FTAs put regulators under undue pressure to do so? Do regulators need additional funding and resources, or will they pass on all costs to professionals and businesses?

Secondly, on delegated powers, we need more meat on the bones of this skeletal Bill. The Government’s own report on delegated powers states that

“the substantive changes to the law envisaged by this Bill will be made through delegated powers rather than the Bill itself.”

That approach fits in with the wider pattern of this Government whereby Ministers often run scared of scrutiny. We understand that national authorities need flexibility to bring forward regulations as and when agreements are struck and shortages identified. Therefore, we accept that it is impossible to provide full clarity now but we are in the dark at the moment. The Government have identified priority professions in their impact assessment; for example, healthcare professionals, social workers, vets and teachers. Therefore, we are calling on the Government to publish draft statutory instruments on priority professions before Report in the Lords. Can the Minister commit to that?

Thirdly, on skill shortages, while attracting talent to the UK is essential for public services and the wider economy, the recognition of overseas qualifications is not a silver bullet for ending our current skills shortage. We believe that the skills agenda must be at the heart of our economic strategy. The agenda is essential to supporting new and emerging businesses, and is vital for the post-Covid recovery and tackling the climate emergency head on. However, after, sadly, a decade of Conservative neglect in many different sectors and professions, we are seeing shortages, including of 84,000 NHS workers in England, 112,000 social workers and 3,000 teachers. The Government’s Queen’s Speech briefing document also states that shortages account for 36% of all construction vacancies and 48% of all manufacturing and skilled trades vacancies.

We believe in a high-skill, high-wage economy, which is why we are often dismayed at the Government’s approach; for example, their lifetime skills guarantee is not guaranteed for everyone because people cannot use it if they are already qualified to level 3, unless they are getting a qualification that the Government have decided is valuable or if they need maintenance support while they are learning. We need to do much better than that. Therefore, we will be arguing that when a skills shortage has been determined under Clause 2 the determination should be published, along with details of how the appropriate national authority is investing in skills domestically. Can the Minister explain how that determination will be compiled; for example, will it be determined by the Government or the regulators? What sources and modelling will be used?

My noble friend Lady Hayter will be touching on other areas on which we will seek clarification, including on how the Bill relates to the EU-UK TCA, whether it allows for bilateral regulatory agreements with EU member states, where the assistance centre will be based and how it will be funded.

For now, I end by stressing how we want to promote opportunity, trade and standards through the recognition of professional qualifications. We must do it in a way that maintains regulatory independence, ensures parliamentary scrutiny and does not replace skills investment at home. In those key areas, we remain to be convinced.

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 14th June 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Blake of Leeds]

34: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Recognition of foreign auditors and foreign audit qualifications
(1) Section 1221 of the Companies Act 2006 (approval of overseas qualifications) is amended as follows.(2) In subsection (1A)(a), for “covers all” substitute “sufficiently covers”.(3) In subsection (91A)(b), for “covers all” substitute “sufficiently covers”.(4) In subsection (1B), for “is” substitute “may be”.(5) In subsection (3), for “equivalent” substitute “sufficiently comparable”.(6) In subsection (5), after “qualifications” insert “or experience”.(7) In subsection (7A)(a)(ii), after “not” insert “sufficiently”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause amends the Companies Act 2006 such that the Financial Reporting Council, the statutory regulator for audit, would gain greater discretion over which foreign auditors and foreign audit qualifications could be accepted in the UK.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

Amendment 34 is in the name of my noble friend Lady Hayter, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for signing it. The amendment would make changes to the Companies Act 2006 to allow the Financial Reporting Council—the current statutory regulator for audit—greater control and discretion over the acceptance of foreign auditors and foreign audit qualifications in the UK. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales has said that these changes would fix a historic problem, as comparing and recognising qualifications between countries has been very difficult for the FRC. This is due to Section 1221 of the Companies Act 2006, which is highly prescriptive in terms of the degree of identity required between the UK standard and the foreign one. The ICAEW states that, in the last 30 years, the UK has recognised only two non-EU qualifications for audit and, post mergers in those countries, neither is the current version any more. Does the Minister think that this needs to change? Can she explain, without the amendment, exactly what changes the Government will propose?

Can the Minister also update the House on audit reform? In March the Government recommitted to a new authority and stated that

“legislation is needed in many areas to complete the task of remodelling the regulator and to establish the FRC’s successor body, the Audit, Reporting and Governance Authority (ARGA).”

However, this legislation was not mentioned in the Queen’s Speech and we are wondering why. When will it be brought forward? Will the changes suggested in Amendment 34 form part of the new Bill? I beg to move.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I support the thrust of Amendment 34 and it is good to see the Benches opposite getting involved in the exciting world of chartered accountancy and auditing. I remind the House that I am a member and former president of the ICAEW.

The wording of Section 1221 of the Companies Act 2006 is rather black and white. I understand that the Act is still the longest Bill that your Lordships’ House has ever considered, and I bear the scars of weeks and weeks in Grand Committee considering hundreds, if not thousands, of amendments. Despite all that effort, from memory I think that we did not focus on the wording of Section 1221, which is clearly a major failure of your Lordships’ legislative scrutiny.

I turn to the amendment. Section 1221 gives little scope for judgment where an overseas qualification is largely the same as a UK one for audit purposes but is not exactly the same. We heard that that has led to relatively few uses of that power. That contrasts with this Bill, where the formulation in relation to overseas qualification is “substantially the same”. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, who is not in her place, queried the use of “substantially” on our first Committee day, but it seems to me that it gives an important element of flexibility to the Bill. Something like that would probably give an element of flexibility in the context of Section 1221 of the Companies Act 2006; indeed, I wonder whether a better formulation for that would be to use “substantially”—that is, to mirror the kind of wording that is used in respect of recognition of overseas qualifications in this Bill. The noble Baroness may like to consider that if she chooses to bring forward this amendment again on Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I do not agree that that is a contradiction. This would have the effect of weakening the standards in audit reform, which we are keen to prevent—so I do not agree with the premise of my noble friend’s question.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her full response. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for reminding me of the many hours of excitement that I have ahead of me in this place and thank her for her suggested wording. I also welcome the reminder from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, of the shortcomings in this particular area.

We keep mentioning the word “assuage”, which I do not think I have ever come across quite so much in my life before. I looked up “assuage” and it referred to the easing of grief. I am not sure that my particular grief in this area has been eased by this. There is a great deal in the answers that we will look at. I am sure we will revisit this very important, if technical, area in the meetings ahead, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 34 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a short but important debate. I expect the Minister to stand up and say that EEA professionals whose qualifications were recognised before the end of the transition period will continue to be recognised, but I warn him—again, in the spirit of helpfulness—to be careful what he promises because there is a problem: how do we know who has qualifications?

For the 5 million-plus EU nationals who have applied for settled status, the Home Office has only been checking the box that says “settled status”. It has not been verifying all withdrawal agreement rights, including professional qualifications. If these people remain in the job they are in now, so be it, but in the event that they move to another job with a new employer, I do not know how the process of them verifying their professional qualifications will happen. When the Minister answers this question, he needs also to answer the question of how this process will be effected for the millions of people, potentially, who came through the mutual recognition process, meaning that their names may not have been—indeed, probably were not—gathered with all the regulating bodies. How will it be managed? As previous speakers have emphasised, the role that these people already play in the United Kingdom is not just important but vital. It is also vital that the Government understand that these people’s qualifications need to work not just for their current job but for their next job and the one after that.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank everyone for their contributions in this really important area. I join noble Lords in raising concerns about the impact of the Bill on the qualifications of those who already live and work in the UK.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Hunt, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for signing my Amendment 60. Their expertise, especially in the medical and legal professions, has been incredibly helpful for this debate and for my first amendment to a Bill in this House. I could not be more appreciative of such cross-party support. I share the intention behind Amendment 37 and thank the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for tabling it.

It is absolutely clear from the debate that we need to give those who already have their professional qualifications recognised in the UK certainty and confidence that this legislation will not affect them negatively, especially because, in many cases, the professionals and people working in these areas already live in our communities, have decided to call the UK their home and are people on whom all of us so often rely, particularly for our vital public services. This is especially true in the context of shortages, as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, set out, picking up on the comments made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Fraser and Lady Finlay, about the whiff of doubt that exists at the moment.

We cannot repeat this frequently enough: last year, the number of non-British people here included 169,000 NHS staff in England, 122,000 staff on the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s register and 247,000 staff in social care. We are hugely grateful to all these key workers—especially for their efforts during the pandemic. As I said at Second Reading, we cannot clap for carers today then strip them of their qualifications tomorrow. We need to stand behind all these workers and want to do so side by side with Ministers.

In the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, the Government’s central promise was that

“nothing in the Bill prevents, qualifies or otherwise impacts the ability of those with existing recognised qualifications from continuing their areas of practice in the UK”,

but the Bill as drafted is currently silent on this. Therefore, Amendment 60 would write the Government’s own promise into the Bill. Surely the Minister will have no objection to accepting this simple but extremely important amendment. How can he guarantee protection of workers without it?

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for pointing out in conversation that many who have registration are not currently practising, and there needs to be reassurance for them as well. We have the opportunity to provide the certainty and confidence that all so richly deserve. Let us do what we can to provide the atmosphere of trust that we have mentioned today.

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds, for their amendments. I note that they are supported by several other noble Lords. Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, have spoken previously about the importance of ensuring that professionals who have already had their qualifications recognised in the UK should be able to continue to rely on those recognition decisions. I completely agree with this. Those professions make an important contribution to the UK, the individuals concerned are very valuable to us and I am happy to put that firmly on the record. That is why this Bill, and any regulations made under it, will not affect the status of those with existing recognised professional qualifications. As I will explain, we are in complete assuagement territory here, without there being a whiff of a doubt, and I hope I can demonstrate that clearly to noble Lords.

To explain fully, the Government secured provisions to protect existing recognition decisions in each of the UK-EU withdrawal agreement, the UK-EEA EFTA separation agreement and the UK-Swiss citizens’ rights agreement. EU-qualified professionals living or frontier-working in the UK at the end of the transition period who had their qualifications recognised by the relevant UK regulator will continue to have their recognition protected under the terms of the withdrawal agreement. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, those individuals will be on the professional register of the professions with which they are registered. This is of course a separate matter from any question of settled status in an immigration context.

There are similar provisions for holders of Norwegian, Icelandic and Liechtenstein qualifications under the UK-EEA EFTA separation agreement and for holders of Swiss qualifications under the UK-Swiss citizens’ rights agreement. Indeed, under that last agreement, Swiss professionals can continue to apply for recognition of qualifications under the current terms up until the end of 2024. These provisions have been given effect in the 2019 recognition of professional qualifications regulations, as amended in 2020 using powers under the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. Clause 5 does not amend or affect the legislation which upholds the UK’s obligations under these agreements, and the UK will continue to protect the rights of these citizens.

The regulations which commence Clause 5(1) will include saving and transitional provisions. These will ensure that professionals whose qualifications were recognised from the end of the transition period to the point when the 2015 regulations are revoked are unaffected. The Government will consider carefully when to implement commencement regulations to support a coherent legislative framework, while also ensuring that decisions are taken at the right time for professions affected. This will support a smooth transition to the new framework for recognising overseas qualifications. These regulations will be laid before Parliament at a suitable time and not without the appropriate prior engagement with devolved Administrations, regulators and other interested parties. This also allows regulators time to transition from operating under EU-derived obligations to the new system suited to the needs of the UK economy. I hope this answers the point made by my noble friend Lady Fraser.

Additionally, the Bill does not change the status of any recognition arrangements that regulators have with counterparts in other countries. They can continue, and the Government are conducting extensive engagement with regulators to ensure that they understand the measures in this Bill. The Government will make clear in those interactions that the Bill will not affect in any way the status of professionals already practising in the UK. I hope this provides reassurance that the Bill is fully consistent with the intent behind these amendments, and that noble Lords therefore feel able not to press them.

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Lords Chamber

The Government have not published either a skills framework or a skills strategy that would be the basis on which we looked at demand. The amendments would give the Government an opportunity within a year, if the Bill goes through, to publish such statements, policy and strategy. At that point we would be able to implement the legislation with a much clearer idea of what the regulations would include, and of course who they would impact.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

This has been an interesting debate, especially for those of us who are only just beginning to get to grips with the whole process of affirmative and negative procedures. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her explanation and the clarity with which she gave her understanding of why she has put forward the amendment. Clearly the Minister needs to explain why a distinction has been drawn and why the Government believe it is necessary.

As we have heard, Clause 15 states:

“Regulations under this Act are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure where they contain provision amending, repealing or revoking primary legislation or retained direct principal EU legislation”—


otherwise, regulations are negative. Amendment 58, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Bennett, seeks to ensure that all regulations made under the Act will be subject to the affirmative procedure. As the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, stated, the Delegated Powers Committee has raised similar concerns, stating, for example, that the power in Clause 10(4), which is subject only to the negative procedure, was “inappropriate”.

There seems to be a recurring theme throughout the discussions and debates that we are having as we go through these procedures: namely, that we must ensure that Parliament is not sidelined and that appropriate parliamentary scrutiny can take place. How many negative SIs does the Minister expect to come before Parliament in the first year after Royal Assent?

On Amendments 65, 66 and 67, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Fox, for putting forward the idea of one-year delay to revoking retained EU legislation, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for his detailed explanation of why that could be an attractive route to follow. I would like the Minister to explain whether this was ever considered. Indeed, would it give the regulators time to raise funds to cover any additional costs, or—to return to the theme of unease around so many areas of the Bill—is the Minister only worried about how a one-year delay could affect the UK’s pursuit of trade agreements?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, for their proposed amendments. As we have heard in this debate, the amendments concern parliamentary procedure for regulations made under the Bill and, separately, the timings for the revocation of relevant retained EU law. I note the concerns raised by almost all noble Lords who have participated in this debate about the use of delegated powers.

The Government have carefully considered the powers in the Bill and consider that they are necessary and justified. It would be unfeasible to specify in the Bill detailed amendments to a large number of pieces of primary and secondary legislation. In respect of certain policies, there is a need for flexibility to make changes over time. For example, the Bill takes a power to implement international agreements so far as they relate to the recognition of professional qualifications, the content and timing of which will depend on the outcome of trade negotiations.

On trade negotiations, I reiterate that the UK’s offer to potential trade partners on the recognition of professional qualifications depends on many factors, including the size of the potential market for the export of professional services. On the concerns addressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, I reiterate my noble friend’s comments about the status of the Australian trade deal. I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns, but I feel that we should probably wait for the final text to be issued.

I will start with Amendment 58, which I note the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, supports. The amendment would have the effect that all regulations made under the Bill would be subject to the affirmative procedure. Clause 15 sets out the parliamentary procedure for how regulations under the Bill should be made. The clause already provides that any regulation amending, repealing or revoking primary legislation or retained direct principal EU legislation is subject to the affirmative procedure. It is right that Parliament has the appropriate scrutiny of such regulations.

The clause goes on to set out that the negative procedure should be used for other, more technical regulations. Further, as an additional safeguard, the Bill provides that regulations subject to the negative procedure may be made also subject to the affirmative procedure where required. For example, regulations made under Clause 10(4), in relation to the duty placed on UK regulators under that clause to provide requested information to their overseas counterparts, would be made under the negative procedure. Those regulations may make provision in connection with that duty—for example, in relation to the timeframe in which the duty is to be complied with. The negative procedure is clearly more fitting in these instances and will provide an appropriate scrutiny for such measures.

I turn to Amendments 65, 66 and 67, which propose a minimum of 12 months before revoking relevant retained EU law. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, for tabling these amendments, and I note that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, supports them. We have already discussed at length the core professionals whose qualifications and experience have been gained overseas, reflecting our status outside the EU single market and our global outlook. Clauses 5 and 6 play a key role in doing that. The details of those clauses were addressed on day 2 of Committee, so I will not repeat them now, but I will repeat what my noble friend the Minister said about the timing of commencement regulations for these clauses and his assurance to noble Lords that the Government have no intention of rushing this.

The Government will consider carefully when to implement commencement regulations to revoke the EU-derived system under Clause 5(1). In order to support a coherent legislative framework while making sure that decisions are taken at the right time for the professions affected, there will need to be appropriate prior engagement with the devolved Administrations, regulators and other interested parties. Likewise, Clause 6 provides for the revocation of other retained EU law by the appropriate national authority, and I would expect there to be appropriate engagement from all such authorities with regulators. As a result, I am confident that the Bill will come into force in an orderly manner with no surprises for regulators, and that it will not bring with it such wholesale changes for which the regulators would need a year to prepare if regulations were to be made before that period had elapsed. I hope that has allayed some of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that we were passing legislation before we had our policy ducks in a row.

I hope my explanations on these points have provided appropriate reassurance and I ask that the amendment be withdrawn. Lastly, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, but perhaps I could write to her with specific answers to her questions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Once again, my Lords, I find myself following the wise words of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Patel. In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referenced the Trade Act. Students of the Trade Act will have heard me make a speech about secondary legislation on at least two occasions and I am not going to repeat it, but—spoiler alert—it was very similar to the speech the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, gave. The key element both of us brought out was the complete lack of government jeopardy when it comes to secondary legislation. In other words: it is essentially a bet that cannot be lost. What they are betting with is the right governance of a very important thing.

After several trailers from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, we come to this amendment. He has trailed this several times and the sunset clause is one way of putting some insurance into this Bill. What we would really like is for the Bill to leave this House not needing a sunset clause; that has to be the objective. This is very much a second-order or third-order solution to something sub-optimal. In that respect, I am not enthusiastic; I am somewhat reluctantly drawn to supporting this clause because we have to put in some element of insurance if we cannot get this right. I hope that, by hook or by crook, we can get the Bill right and perhaps not need a sunset clause, but in the meantime, we should keep that option open.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for tabling Amendment 59. A four-year sunset clause is an interesting proposal, given the wider concerns that keep coming up throughout these debates: how quickly the Bill has been put together, the lack of thinking through of all the elements, and the concerns just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

Have the Government considered a mechanism for reviewing the Act’s effectiveness and, if so, what sort of review is the Minister proposing? I hope he will acknowledge the lack of confidence that has been expressed from all sides of this Chamber. I finish by asking the Minister to explain why the Bill’s provisions should last longer than four years, without a review mechanism.

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for his amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for the views he expressed.

The amendment would impose a time limit of four years on appropriate national authorities making regulations under this Bill, once enacted, and regulations already made under the powers in the Bill would expire the day after that four-year period is completed. Of course, this is familiar to many as a sunset clause. However, sunset clauses are typically insurance policies against powers that, at some point in the future, may be no longer suitable to deliver the policy aims which required the legislation to be made.

The Trade Act, which we have heard referred to by a number of noble Lords, with its rollover of international agreements to be replaced in due course, is an example of legislation in which a sunset clause that can be renewed by Parliament is appropriate. However, this Bill and the delegated powers within it are drafted deliberately to endure, futureproof the legislation and provide flexibility to make necessary changes over time. I even like to think of the Bill as having a sunrise —not sunset—effect because it is intended to help our professionals enter new markets and deliver a global Britain, having ended the one-sided, EU-derived temporary arrangements. I therefore feel that a sunset provision is at odds with the purpose of the Bill.

Returning to debate a new professional qualifications Bill in four years’ time because this Bill no longer provides for that flexibility, would, I respectfully suggest, not be the best use of the expertise of this House. Of course, I have nothing against such clauses where they are appropriately used, but inclusion here would undermine the ability of the UK Government and devolved Administrations to respond swiftly to changing demands for services. It would potentially thwart the implementation of future regulator recognition agreements, which, as we know, may not in reality be implemented for some years after a free trade agreement is agreed.

There is also a risk that in providing for the expiry of regulations made under Clause 3 to implement international agreements, the UK may be left without provision upholding the commitments that we have made under those agreements, thereby placing us in breach of their terms. As I remarked to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, on day two in Committee, I believe that sunset clauses would not be appropriate in these circumstances. By sunsetting, we limit the opportunity for service trade and constrain regulators’ abilities to exploit opportunities with their international counterparts, for example through Clause 4.

The powers in the Bill are designed to support a flexible response as the regulatory landscape evolves over time. Curtailing the ability to do that through a time limit would put us into regulatory limbo rather than preparing us for the future. We know that the Bill will allow the UK to replace the interim system of recognition currently in operation. Stripping away regulation that the Bill creates to replace the EU system would only create a new gap.

Finally, if the intent behind this amendment is indeed to mitigate any potential misuse of powers, I reiterate that the powers detailed in the Bill are carefully tailored to its requirements; they are focused on a specific purpose. I believe that the reason why some noble Lords are arguing for a sunset clause is that they think it is a rotten Bill: “If we are not able to kill it off now, why not do so in four years’ time?” I prefer to share the ambition of the noble Lord, Lord Fox—I was pleased to hear him state it so clearly—that the Bill should leave our House in good shape, do what it is intended to do and be fit for purpose. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will agree that a sunset clause is not appropriate and will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Blake of Leeds]

16: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Protection for existing recognised qualifications
Nothing in this Act prevents, qualifies or otherwise affects the ability of those with existing recognised qualifications to continue practising the profession to which the qualifications relate in the United Kingdom or any part of the United Kingdom.”

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, as I said in Committee, there is a clear need to give those who already have their professional qualifications recognised in the UK certainty and confidence that this legislation will not affect them negatively, especially because, in many cases, the professionals and people working in these areas already live in our communities, have decided to call the UK their home and are people on whom all of us so often rely, particularly for our vital public services. Amendment 16 seeks only to enshrine the Government’s own central promise from the Explanatory Notes that

“nothing in the Bill prevents, qualifies or otherwise impacts the ability of those with existing recognised qualifications from continuing their areas of practice in the UK”.

The Minister said in Committee says that he completely agrees with

“ensuring that professionals who have already had their qualifications recognised in the UK should be able to continue to rely on those recognition decisions.”

Then why not put it in the Bill? Without this simple amendment, how can the Minister provide the reassurance that these workers so desperately need? He also stated in Committee:

“The regulations which commence Clause 5(1) will include saving and transitional provisions”


to

“ensure that professionals whose qualifications were recognised from the end of the transition period to the point when the 2015 regulations are revoked are unaffected”,

and to

“support a smooth transition to the new framework for recognising overseas qualifications.”—[Official Report, 14/6/21; cols. 1734-35.]

When will we see these regulations, and what does “a smooth transition” actually mean? Will it ensure that no one with qualifications recognised today will lose out on job prospects tomorrow?

We feel strongly about this issue, and I look forward to hearing unequivocal and clear commitments from the Minister tonight

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, an issue raised in Committee that it would be helpful for the Minister to provide an update on—in writing would be satisfactory to me—concerns those European Union workers who had been providing services, with their qualifications recognised, and had applied for settled status but on the fast-track element, which did not ask them to provide any more information about the qualifications recognition. With Clauses 5 and 6 revoking the previous EU scheme and the move towards the domestic schemes, there is still potentially a grey area for those workers who will have to provide proof of their qualifications recognition if they change employer, or indeed if they seek new rental or property agreements, et cetera.

Previously, the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, indicated that the Government were aware of this, and he provided assurances. It would be very helpful if the Government could say how many of these workers could be in this position. It emphasises the point made by the noble Baroness, which I agree with, that, even if there are unintended consequences of putting at risk some of these workers, we can ill afford it.

The second element is that it would be helpful to know the Government’s intentions for the timing of the revocation of the EU scheme. Previously, the Minister indicated that it would be when the Government were ready to do so but that they were not in any rush to do it. It will be helpful to know what timeframe we are looking at, because the noble Lord, Lord Frost, in a Statement he provided to the House in September, said that the Government were now carrying out a substantial review of previous European legislation and retained EU law. Are professional qualifications separate from that review or will they be considered as part of it? If the Minister could give some reassurance on that, I would be grateful.

Finally, because this will probably be my last comment on the Bill in this House—which I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, will be pleased to hear—I want to put on record how she and the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, have engaged in this process. I have been in this House a number of years, and we hear at the Dispatch Box fairly frequently that the Government value the input and scrutiny from this House and take on board whenever we amend legislation, and we always welcome that. But our amendments quite frequently get buried in the dust in the other House, when all our great counsel and wisdom is turned back.

The benefit of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord listening and then acting by tabling the government amendments is that this is now government policy, and the Bill is now substantially changed. If I understand it correctly, this will be the first time that the autonomy of regulators will be respected in primary legislation. That is a considerable achievement for the parliamentary process of a Bill of which we had been not only sceptical but critical at the early stages, but which we now support. Therefore, I commend both Ministers and their teams for the work they have done. Personally speaking, I think the Bill is in a much better position. For the benefit of our regulators and those who receive services that the professions operate, it is a better Bill as a result.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for his kind words; I will certainly try to continue to do my best at the Dispatch Box. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds, for her amendment. In Committee, the House sought confirmation that professionals who have already had their qualifications recognised in the UK will be able to continue to rely on those recognition decisions. Indeed, those professionals will be able to continue to do so, provided of course that they meet any ongoing practice requirements. Nothing in the Bill, nor the regulations anticipated under it, will interfere with or reverse such decisions.

Regulations commencing Clause 5 will include saving and transitional provisions to ensure that professionals’ existing recognition will continue to be valid, and applications made before revocation comes into effect by the commencement regulations will continue to be assessed under the relevant retained EU recognition law. It is possible to make similar provisions in regulations under Clause 6.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, asked what a smooth transition would look like. It will include regulations which ensure that the UK meets its international obligations under the EU-UK withdrawal agreement, EEA EFTA separation agreement and the UK Swiss citizens’ rights agreement. It includes saving and transitional provisions to ensure that professionals’ existing recognition will continue to be valid, and applications made before revocation has commenced will be assessed under the EU system. Commencement of Clause 5(1) is timed to avoid burdening regulators or creating gaps in their ability to recognise overseas qualifications. The Government took a similar approach when amending retained EU recognition law in 2019 to ensure a smooth transition for businesses and professionals following the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

The noble Baroness also asked why, if we are so committed to protecting the ability of those with existing recognised qualifications to continue practising, we are not putting this on the face of the Bill. We believe that this matter is best dealt with through saving and transitional provisions in secondary legislation. The UK Government and devolved Administrations took this approach when amending EU legislation on recognition of professional qualifications to prepare for leaving the EU. We see no reason to depart from this approach and enshrine this commitment in the Bill.

The revocation of the general EU-derived system will not impact the ability of professionals with recognition decisions awarded under that system to continue practising in the UK. This applies even where a professional takes a career break and chooses to return to a profession in which they were awarded recognition. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, asked about the fast-tracked settled status of EU citizens. We are unable to provide the House with the precise timetable at present, but we will engage with stakeholders as we go forward.

Professionals who do take a career break should check with their regulator to establish what, if anything, they will need to do to continue practising or to return to practice. This will of course vary between professions. If a profession has a continuing practice requirement, that will also apply for individuals currently practising. For example, where a registered medical professional has a licence to practise, they must revalidate their registration every five years. Similarly, when a professional returns to the UK, their first port of call would be to the relevant regulator in the UK to ascertain requirements for recognition.

The Bill does not make commitments in these areas, because that would be interfering with regulators’ ability to regulate. The main reason that this amendment has been proposed is to protect those with recognition decisions, but there is no threat from this Bill to those decisions. The Professional Qualifications Bill respects existing recognition decisions and any ability a regulator has to set professional standards. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw this amendment, if I have provided sufficient reassurance.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her response, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for his comments.

I think I can honestly say that there is still concern. I have heard it particularly from those professionals who are not practising at the moment—so there is a continual need for reassurance. However, I thank the Minister for her comments and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 16 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I think it was in the briefing before Second Reading that I first asked which regulators were covered by the Bill—one of those naive questions where you are often surprised by the answer that you get. My noble friend the Minister said he would write to me, which he duly did, and it was a surprise to other members of the committee when we got the letter—and things sort of went downhill after that. We had another version of the list, with more regulators on, and then a more definitive version that appeared more recently and is on the website.

For me, this struck at the competence with which the Bill was put together, and nothing that has happened has made me change my view that it was not put together in a competent way. But I am satisfied that the Government have done a very considerable amount of work to try to establish the scope of the Bill and to whom it applies, and are committed to keeping an updated list on the website. So I am happy with where we have ended up—but, my goodness, it has been an extraordinary journey.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I think we can all congratulate Members on their persistence on this issue and I have to tell noble Lords that my vocabulary has expanded at an enormous rate by being involved in the Bill. I have never heard the expression, “I am not assuaged” quite so often, but it clearly shows that we are moving in the right direction. As we have heard, there are still concerns and, given the lateness of the hour, I just want to add that with Amendment 18 we really feel that we would like to see statutory protection to ensure that the list is regularly maintained and updated. That is the question we have: we have achieved so much through the debate here, but how can we be reassured that the list will be kept updated and maintained, and how often will it happen? Because of our experience, we need a reassurance that the list will not be removed once the Bill has received Royal Assent. I will listen very carefully to the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I think no one has had a bigger headache on this list than the Minister himself and the department, but it was a headache, frankly, of their own making.

I am with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on this: I think it should be a separate schedule. We proposed a mechanism in Amendment 19 by which this schedule might be created and maintained. The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, talked about keeping it updated: if it had not been for the scrutiny of your Lordships and the constant harrying of the Ministers, this list would not have been nearly right now. I suspect there are still amendments to go into it. For that reason, we think Parliament should hold on to a regulatory process and, through a statutory instrument, that schedule can be updated.

What we have sought to do in Amendment 19 is not to second-guess where the list is now—because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, pointed out, that is like catching a knife—but to give the Government a process by which a definitive list may be created, put in a schedule and updated easily and, I would say, flexibly through a statutory instrument. Why? Because this is not just a list of organisations on a website: there are rights and responsibilities that come with being on this list and, indeed, not being on this list. Which professions are going to be scrutinised to see whether demand is met or unmet? This is a really important issue that Parliament should continue to maintain scrutiny over.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, talked about the responsibilities of those organisations, but also the rights—which ones have the autonomy that the Minister’s amendment has granted and which are not part of this list? Furthermore, when the conversations are being had with the devolved authorities, a list gives weight to those discussions and gives a very clear indication of which professions are in and which are not. So, one way or another, putting it in the schedule is really important, as is a way in which that can be flexibly maintained, whereby Parliament maintains its ability to scrutinise that process; because without that scrutiny, where would we be now?

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

3rd reading
Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for going the extra mile to put the Bill in the state in which it is. His statement today on his continuing engagement on legislative consent with the devolved Administrations is particularly welcome. In paying tribute to him, his Bill team and my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, I urge him to ensure that we see some fruit from the common frameworks and recognise their importance in implementing what is in not just this piece of legislation but other forthcoming legislation as well. I am personally grateful to him.

I thank the Law Society of Scotland, in particular Michael Clancy, at what has been a very difficult time for him through his illness. I also thank the Faculty of Advocates, of which I am a non-practising member, for its engagement in the round table hosted by my noble friend. I warmly thank my noble friend for all that he has done and I hope that the Bill will have a safe passage through the other place.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been the first Bill I have taken part in since I joined your Lordships’ House. While I originally thought that it was going to be an important, if not straightforward, Bill, the legislation has been much more of an eye-opener than I was expecting. For example, I did not expect that simply asking who the Bill related to would result in such confusion from the Government and months of delay. Securing a list of regulators and professions in scope of the legislation has been important work. I recognise the effort that the Government have put in to compile the list, although I again suggest that perhaps it could have happened before the Bill was published.

It has been fascinating and enjoyable and I am glad that my first Bill has been so important both for British citizens who want to work abroad and for workers who want to bring their expertise to the UK. Our public services would not function without them and our communities are richer when they decide to make the UK their home.

Ultimately, I have seen first-hand how this House can really scrutinise and improve legislation. I am sure that the Minister will agree, as he has stated, that this is a better Bill now than when it was first introduced to Parliament. From the start, we on these Benches said that it should not undermine the independence and autonomy of regulators due to their important function of setting standards and protecting consumers. There was widespread concern from inside and outside the House that Clause 3 in particular could force regulators to lower standards due to what Ministers had agreed in the free trade agreements.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for working cross-party on this important issue. That is why the Government’s amendment to protect regulatory autonomy is such a welcome addition to the Bill. This is a big change and, while not perfect, it should protect domestic standards across 205 regulated professions. I pay tribute to all the regulators which have engaged so constructively with us.

As this was a skeleton Bill, we also pushed the Government repeatedly to consult regulators and devolved authorities on regulations. The Government’s amendment making statutory provision for consultation with regulators, including departments in devolved Administrations, is a good step forward.

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Baroness Blake of Leeds Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I shall add a word, while apologising that I was unable to take part in earlier stages on this Bill because of involvement in other legislation, as a number of colleagues know. But this amendment and this debate touch on a matter central to the relationship between the devolved Administrations and the Government in Westminster, and this matter is critical to the future of relationships between the nations and these islands.

Is it not in the Government’s own interest important to find a way in which there can be a meeting of minds in matters such as this? If there is not a meeting of minds on issue after issue, we are stoking up the fires that will lead to a break-up of the United Kingdom—not just a change to the United Kingdom as we know it now. Many of us who want radical change would be able to live with a United Kingdom that has a confederal relationship, and so on, and where there is a mutual understanding. But not acknowledging the role of the Government in Scotland and Wales—and, to the extent that Northern Ireland comes into this, in Northern Ireland—is inevitably driving the relationship in that direction. I cannot see what the Government could lose by coming to a conclusion that the consent of the Governments in Cardiff and Edinburgh would be needed for some of the provisions covered by this Bill. I should have thought that it was in the Government’s own interest; it seems common sense to me. Is it too late now to act on that basis?

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I sincerely hope that the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, is progressing well. He seems to have fallen to the unfortunate propensity of the BEIS team to suffer from Covid. From experience, I hope that he gets through it quickly and I pass on my best wishes. I am very sorry that he is not here for the concluding comments around the Bill. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, for her introductory comments, which were delivered with clarity on the matters that we are considering.

I think many of us who have been involved in this Bill throughout its passage will recognise that it has not been the finest moment for legislation coming through the House. It was the first Bill that I was involved with, so it was quite a steep learning curve for me—but it has been described as chaotic. Indeed, it is quite extraordinary that the Bill was introduced without knowing which professions were actually in scope in the first place. Many concerns have been expressed about the Bill in its stages across the House. We note the considerable number of amendments that have gone through and gone to the other place—as the result, probably, of poor drafting in the first place. Of course, we do not wish to open the debate again on all those and other issues, but it is right to emphasise that particular concern was expressed right at the start with regard to the lateness of consultation, especially with devolved authorities. As was predicted at the time, I believe that it is that which has led to the lengthy delays and, of course, to the devolved authorities formally rejecting the Minister’s reassurances in early January.

On Report, we took a decision not to divide the House based on the assurances made by the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, that he would continue to work on the Bill to secure support from the devolved authorities. We note the further work that has been undertaken, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, to seek legislative consent from the devolved authorities and to overcome the impasse that still exists. As has been expressed, this is indeed regrettable.

We note the amendments tabled today and the further assurance from the Minister of the Government’s intention to work collaboratively and transparently with all the devolved authorities. We understand that the amendments are designed to introduce the enhanced consultation duty and to formalise the Government’s standard good practice in consulting devolved authorities before making regulations, as discussed on many occasions in this House.

Along with many other Members of this House, I am a passionate believer in devolution. Real devolution requires trust, transparency, honouring commitments and, above all, respect. Sadly, there are too many instances, across many policy areas, where government is falling short. I hope we can have further assurance from the Minister that timely consultation will become the norm and that any concerns arising from discussions will be dealt with transparently and in good faith. We recognise that the amendments are a step forward. With these comments, and noting our continuing interest and concerns, we recognise that the amendments will lead to the Bill moving on to be accepted.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking your Lordships for the constructive approach that has been in evidence throughout the Bill’s passage. We have had robust discussion and debates, and the Bill is all the better for that. I take on the chin the comments of the noble Baroness opposite about how we may not have started in the best place with the Bill.

The UK Government have been grateful for the close engagement of colleagues in all the devolved Administrations at both ministerial and official level throughout this process. Even though we are disappointed that the devolved Administrations have not been able to support legislative consent, I know that my noble friend Lord Grimstone and Minister Scully have listened carefully to their concerns. To that end, we have heard and understood the particular concern of the Welsh Government around Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006. In answer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, I again confirm that we shall continue to work closely with all the DAs to make the Bill work for all areas of the UK.

This amendment and the consult-plus amendment underline the Government’s determination to work collaboratively and transparently with all devolved Administrations and devolved regulators under the provisions of the Bill and on wider regulated professions policy. Although it is regrettable that legislative consent Motions have not been passed for the Bill, the UK Government are fully committed to the Sewel convention and the associated practices for seeking consent, as set out in the devolution memorandum of understanding and devolution guidance notes. We will continue to seek legislative consent from the devolved legislatures when introducing Bills at Westminster which legislate within all areas of devolved competence.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, who was asking about the BEIS Bills, these situations are clearly exceptional. BEIS has explored all avenues to secure the consent of devolved Administrations, including offering packages of concessions on these Bills and committing, importantly, to further meaningful engagement with the DAs to ensure their input in the future of these new regimes.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I do not agree that there is any question that we do not recognise the role of the DAs. We have held three ministerial round tables with devolved regulators and have had regular engagement at official level. It is completely incorrect to say that the DAs have not been given enough time or information to engage with the Bill. However, I acknowledge and hope that we may all find a better way of working together and re-establishing that important trust that should exist between the four nations and their respective Governments and assemblies.