Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Tunnicliffe

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I am very slow today. The Minister has spent a lot of time agreeing with me and then she has not suggested that we should adopt the amendment. Is she suggesting that we should adopt the amendment or is she trying to persuade me that it is not necessary?

[Baroness Barran]

I am trying to persuade the noble Lord that the Government’s amendments will achieve the same aim.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

No change there.

[Baroness Barran]

Returning to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, about weights and measures, I am advised that this approach goes with the grain of existing legislation. We believe that weights and measures authorities are in fact local authorities, but I will confirm that in writing.

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[Baroness Barran]

We will gladly do that.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked for more detail about the prosecution fund that was announced in the Government’s Serious Violence Strategy. The Government committed £500,000 in 2018-19 and another £500,000 in 2019-20 to support local authorities to bring prosecutions, where appropriate, in relation to age-restricted sales of knives. The prosecution fund is managed by National Trading Standards, which is the body that brings together trading standards representatives in England and Wales. The fund will be used by 11 local areas identified as having a knife crime problem to test compliance with sale of knives legislation. I think the noble Lord will be pleased to hear that Croydon is among the 11 areas since he referred to the good work that is going on there.

Amendment 86 would enable local authorities and companies to establish partnerships with the purpose of complying with the provisions in the Bill. The noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect that this amendment is aimed at extending the benefits of the primary authority scheme. The primary authority scheme was created in response to recommendations in the Hampton report published in 2005, which noted widespread inconsistencies of regulatory interpretation between different local authorities. It was introduced in April 2009. The Enterprise Act 2016 included measures to amend the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008 to enable many more small businesses and pre-start-up enterprises to participate in primary authority.

The primary authority scheme provides greater regulatory consistency for businesses operating across a number of local authority areas. This is expected to improve compliance with the legislation. The scheme is based on the creation of a statutory partnership between a business and its primary authority. The primary authority acts as a key point of contact for a business that it partners with, in relation to the business’s interaction with local authorities that regulate it, known as enforcing authorities. The primary authority acts as co-ordinator of other local authority inspections of that business. The primary authority supports businesses in meeting their obligations by helping them to understand what needs to be done to achieve or maintain compliance: setting out a way of doing so, or providing information that the method of compliance chosen by the business is acceptable. For the benefit of noble Lords, I will mention that all the major supermarkets, Amazon and the Association of Convenience Stores—given that your Lordships have mentioned the importance of smaller retailers several times—are all part of the primary authority scheme. The scheme has been received positively and has had widespread uptake and support from businesses, professional bodies and local authorities. Government Amendment 82 therefore extends the scheme to the sale of bladed articles and corrosive products. Amendments 88 and 90 are consequential on the earlier amendments.

In short, the government amendments in this group achieve much the same end as the amendments in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Kennedy. On that basis I hope that the noble Lord will be content to withdraw Amendment 59.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I shall read the Minister’s response with some care, but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Barran]

I thank the noble Lord for clarifying that point. Concerns were raised on the possession of long kirpans. As a result, the Government amended the Bill to include a defence for religious reasons rather than religious ceremonies, which is narrower. No concerns were raised in relation to any other provisions of the Criminal justice Act. Moreover, members of the Sikh community have been able to carry kirpans in public, including long kirpans, in religious parades—I am not sure whether that addresses my noble friend’s earlier point—and the Bill will not change that. I am therefore not persuaded that a wholesale exemption for kirpans from the provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 is needed. I fully understand the importance the Sikh community attaches to this issue. Indeed, I understand it better thanks to the interventions of noble Lords. With the reassurance of a future meeting, I hope I have been able to persuade the noble Lord that we have the balance right and that he will be content to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

This takes me back to those heady days when we had a Labour Government and I was a lowly Whip. That sounds like a very Treasury counterargument. One day when I was handling a particular clause, I was told that it was impossible to frame the legislation to meet the need. I said, from my lowly position in the massive meeting, “You’d better try because otherwise you will get the words that are in the amendment because it will pass at the next stage”. At that, there was a great writing of things and, lo and behold, the Government managed to find an amendment which was satisfactory. I strongly recommend that the Government make an intense effort to frame an amendment of their own which meets the across-the-board support for the spirit of this amendment.

[Lord Paddick]

Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, it should be said that concerns are being expressed at the impression being given by the Government of there being no room for negotiation on this issue. I hope that they will at least approach that meeting with an open mind rather than giving the impression, as might be inferred from what the Minister has said from the Dispatch Box, that there is no room for manoeuvre.

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[Baroness Barran]

I hear the concerns of several noble Lords. I reassure them again that we will enter the conversation with a very open mind.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I cannot remember the last time I had such broad-based support. I feel that I need to bask in it for a few seconds, but enough is enough. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Operation Conifer: Sir Edward Heath

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Tunnicliffe

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I am afraid that I am unable to say whether any of the seven complainants making allegations applied for compensation, but I will check that and write to the noble Lord, placing a copy of the letter in the Library.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I note the Government’s refusal, for which they must take responsibility, but surely the Home Office has a duty to ensure that police forces have the capability to run just and professional investigations into historical sex crimes that take account of the rights of the accused, the victims and the public good. What progress has the Home Office made in developing such a holistic approach?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is quite right that the balancing of the rights of different parties in these cases is extremely important. He will be aware that the Home Office has raised child sexual abuse and sexual exploitation as the sixth national threat and has applied significant funding, including from the police transformation fund, to address it. The Government remain committed to ensuring that victims receive quality support for both those who access the criminal justice system and those who do not.

Operation Conifer

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Tunnicliffe

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for securing today’s debate. I also welcome the Minister to her place on the Front Bench—and I accompany that with a note of sympathy. One or two noble Lords have asked the Minister to deviate from her brief tonight. I hope they realise that that can be a seriously career-limiting activity.

I will be brief. Your Lordships’ House is familiar with the context and details of this issue, as it has been raised a number of times in Oral Questions and debates over recent months. It is a complex area of huge significance to the operation of our criminal justice system, and to our efforts to ensure justice and to prevent and protect against serious crimes of sexual abuse. Victims who come forward—those accused, and the public—must be able to have confidence in our police forces to run just and professional investigations into allegations of this nature. It must be stated that it is right and proper for allegations against a prominent public figure to be investigated, as they would be for a person without such standing. With those investigations, though, comes an increased obligation to be responsible about what information is put into the public domain.

This debate has provided many questions for the Minister regarding noble Lords’ concerns over how the operation was managed, the role of the local PCC, and what consideration was given to the establishment and funding of an independent inquiry into Operation Conifer. I look forward to the Minister’s reply on these issues.

Following Operation Midland, Sir Richard Henriques published his findings on police handling of that investigation, including analysis of some serious failures. At the time we said that the details of the report should be used to strengthen police procedures for both the investigation and the treatment of suspects—but, crucially, that changes must not be used to downgrade the seriousness of allegations or to make it harder for victims to report a crime. With that in mind, I have two questions for the Minister.

First, can she tell the House whether she is aware of any work to spread best practice between police forces on their operational handling of investigations of this nature, and to prevent the repetition of mistakes such as those that occurred in Operation Midland? Secondly, even while we debate the important issue of access to justice for a person who is accused, we must also keep in our sights the injustices that are faced daily by victims of these crimes. Rape and abuse are woefully underreported and have low conviction rates. The most recent Crime Survey for England and Wales estimated that 83% of people who had been the victim of a sexual offence did not report their experience to the police. Will the Minister update the House on what work is being done to encourage the reporting of these offences, and to ensure that police officers are adequately trained to respond to a victim who discloses this kind of crime?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Lexden for securing this important debate, and I thank all noble Lords for their warm welcome to me at the Dispatch Box. It is a great honour to be standing here, responding for the Government on this very important topic, and I will do my best to respond to the points raised.

In preparing for this speech, I read the various debates and questions on this topic over the past three years; indeed, I have listened to several exchanges since I joined your Lordships’ House in July. I have been struck by the strength of feeling about the damage done to Sir Edward’s reputation by Operation Conifer—and that strength of feeling was echoed again, very forcefully, by your Lordships tonight. The Government remain genuinely sympathetic to the concerns raised by noble Lords but have made their position clear on several occasions.

As noble Lords know, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary recently gave his own careful consideration to this matter and wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, on 10 October. He has considered the case both for a Government-commissioned inquiry into Operation Conifer and for a review of the seven remaining allegations. To answer my noble friend Lord Lexden’s question about whether there is anything in law to prevent the Government from commissioning an independent inquiry, I refer to the response of my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford on 11 October. In it she confirmed that, while there is nothing to prevent the Government from doing so, they would need clear justification.

My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has recognised the strength of feeling on this matter and the issues it raises, but has also thought carefully about the proper role of government. It remains his view that the handling of this is properly a matter for the local police and crime commissioner and that it would not be appropriate for the Government to seek to persuade him how to go about it.

Sir Richard Henriques’ review of the Metropolitan Police’s handling of allegations against persons of public prominence, which has been referred to in this context, was of course commissioned by the then Commissioner, the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe. It remains the case, therefore, that the Government have no plans to launch an inquiry into Operation Conifer or the seven outstanding allegations. A number of noble Lords have mentioned our inability to hear the voice of Sir Edward in response to these allegations—something on which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary also focused in his letter to the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong. He wrote that:

“the problem that the police encountered was their inability to interview Sir Edward himself in order to secure his account of events. I have every sympathy, but that problem will of course remain and it is not clear to what extent a further review of the existing evidence by a judge or retired prosecutor would resolve this”.

I am genuinely sorry to give a reply which I know will disappoint some noble Lords, but it is important to bear in mind the degree of scrutiny to which Operation Conifer has already been subject. This has included Wiltshire Police’s own independent scrutiny panel, two reviews by Operation Hydrant, a review of the costs of the operation by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, and an investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct into specific complaints about the then chief constable. The findings of Operation Conifer were then made public in the Summary Closure Report published in October 2017.

It is clearly disappointing that the investigation was unable to resolve the position in respect of seven of the allegations. I fully understand why this is of concern—noble Lords have put it most eloquently this evening. A man who has served this country at the highest level has had his reputation tarnished and he is powerless to defend himself. However, as I have already mentioned, the missing piece of the jigsaw is Sir Edward’s side of the story. Sadly, that is lost to us now and it is not clear that a further review would take us any further forward. However, I reiterate what my noble friend Lady Williams has emphasised so often in this House: that the Summary Closure Report makes it clear that no inference of guilt should be drawn from the conclusion that Sir Edward would have been interviewed under caution.