Governance of the Union (Constitution Committee Report)

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent Excerpts

Monday 28th April 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Drake for securing this excellent debate and the Constitution Committee for its report and the interest it continues to show in this area. As the spokesperson for the Cabinet Office as well as the Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland Offices, I recognise the importance of the issues raised today, so I thank all noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. I should also put on record that, as someone who was born in Scotland—can noble Lords tell?—and who lives in England, I genuinely appreciate the importance of making government and governance work for all nations and regions in the UK.

Let me be clear: as the Prime Minister has said, to ensure that we are indeed a United Kingdom, it is crucial to give greater importance to respect and collaboration in the service of all people, across all parts of this country. This is essential for effective governance, to tackle our shared challenges and build a United Kingdom that works for everyone.

This Government were elected on the promise of change, renewal and reset. To do this, it is our duty to work in the service of the people to deliver on their priorities. That is why in our manifesto we committed to clean up politics and return it to the service of working people through resetting the UK Government’s relationship with the devolved Governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—although, as noble Lords have highlighted, not least as the noble Lord, Lord McInnes, has stated, this is chemistry as much as it is physics, which is a line I think I am going to use repeatedly going forward. We are doing just that.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I assure your Lordships’ House that our reset and re-engagement has been based on a relationship of mutual respect. That is how we are seeking to re-engage with the Governments across the United Kingdom. This work began on day one of the new Government, with the Prime Minister speaking to the heads of the devolved Governments within hours of his appointment. He then visited Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast respectively to meet them in the following days.

To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, this Government genuinely believe in devolution, which is why we undertook this reset from day one. These early and proactive actions of the Prime Minister have led the way for the rest of our Government. The Prime Minister has been clear that rebuilding the country requires UK-wide delivery by working effectively with all levels of government. That is why, in our manifesto, we committed to ensuring the structures and institutions of intergovernmental working improve relationships and collaboration on policy.

With regard to the principle of positive engagement, in response to my noble friends Lady Andrews and Lady Drake, the principles for intergovernmental relations were jointly agreed between the UK Government and the devolved Governments as part of the 2022 Review of Intergovernmental Relations. There are no current plans to reopen this and add a new principle. Instead, we are focusing on how we embed the spirit of positive engagement in our work alongside the devolved Governments at all levels as we reset.

There is now frequent, proactive engagement between Ministers and their devolved counterparts on a range of issues. Noble Lords have rightly pointed out that this is not just about how often we speak but about the quality and calibre of what we are discussing, at the same time making sure that regular engagement is a theme. The structures set out in the 2022 Review of Intergovernmental Relations are functioning well and have withstood changes across all Governments. There have been 20 formal meetings of these structures since the general election. The top-tier meeting between the Prime Minister and the heads of the devolved Governments has taken place. To reassure the noble Lord, Lord McInnes, these meetings will happen twice a year.

The Interministerial Standing Committee and Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee have met. However, we really should have thought about the names of these groups when we had the meeting. The portfolio-level interministerial groups are up and running. These latter groups provide an important place for discussion of the impacts upon each other of policy changes across the different Governments and for shared learning and co-operation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, raised, as did the noble Lord, Lord Beith, they are meeting as early as possible to discuss legislation before it comes in front of your Lordships’ House. For example, just last month the Minister for Energy attended the Interministerial Group for Net Zero, Energy and Climate Change alongside Ministers from the Scottish and Welsh Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive, where they discussed local energy initiatives and benefits to communities.

We are using the intergovernmental structures to ensure that there is collaboration with the devolved Governments. These structures help to ensure that the importance of devolution is reflected in policy-making and that effective outcomes are delivered across all parts of the United Kingdom.

In response to my noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Andrews, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, on the qualitative progress in transparency reporting and how our principles are being embedded in practice, in the first month of government we have been focusing on actions rather than reports. We are currently considering how we can supplement the impartial Intergovernmental Relations Secretariat’s annual report, the first of which is forthcoming, with our own reporting from a UK Government perspective. These principles matter not just to those formal structures set out in the intergovernmental relations review but apply more broadly. Overall accountability for the system of intergovernmental relations includes adherence to its principles collectively with the top-tier intergovernmental structure: the Prime Minister and the heads of the devolved Governments.

In addition to these structures, as many noble Lords have highlighted, we committed in our manifesto to establishing a new Council of the Nations and Regions. To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Beith, this is not a tick-box exercise or a talking shop. To reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, we believe that the Council of the Nations and Regions is complementary, hence the timings of the meetings, with the top tier of the IGR meeting at the same time as CNR, with the CNR meeting following.

The council brings together the UK Government, the devolved Governments and the mayors of strategic authorities to determine actions for tackling some of the biggest and most cross-cutting challenges that the Government face. The first meeting, which was held in Edinburgh on 11 October last year, was delivered within the first 100 days of this Government. The Prime Minister has been clear that the purpose of the council is a genuine, meaningful and focused partnership to unlock the whole of the UK’s untapped potential to make everyone, everywhere, better off. The inaugural meeting discussed the broader growth picture and maximising inward investment opportunities ahead of the international investment summit. That summit then delivered a commitment of £63 billion of private investment into the UK, which will create close to 38,000 new jobs across the country.

However, these formal structures are not the sum total of engagement. Collaboration also happens on a day-to-day basis across government. This cross-government co-ordination and engagement with the devolved Governments is supported by Minister Alexander. As a Minister of State in the Cabinet Office, he covers the union and devolution policy across Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in addition to his existing responsibilities at the Department for Business and Trade.

What is really important is that we can come together when it matters. That is how this Government are delivering for the people of the United Kingdom, whether that is through the UK Government or national Governments coming together when their people need them. We saw this earlier in the year when Storm Éowyn made landfall. Ahead of the storm, the Cabinet Office, alongside the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, issued an emergency alert to approximately 4.5 million people in Northern Ireland and the central belt of Scotland containing information on how to stay safe; this was the largest real-life use of the emergency alert to date. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster also chaired a ministerial COBRA meeting with Cabinet colleagues, the First Minister of Scotland and the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland to discuss what support and mutual aid the UK Government could provide to Northern Ireland.

I must stress this: we are not done. We will continue to build on this. We will continue to collaborate with our colleagues in the devolved Governments. We want to continue to work in service of the people of the United Kingdom to deliver for the people of the United Kingdom.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and my noble friend Lady Andrews, as we set out in our manifesto, we are determined that the structures of intergovernmental working are used to improve collaboration on policy. In that spirit, we committed to strengthening the Sewel convention—this was specifically in our manifesto; I have a copy here if noble Lords would like one—which is something that I know this House and the Constitution Committee take very seriously. The convention is a vital part in ensuring all of the relevant democratic institutions have a say in the legislation that concerns matters within their competence. As such, we are taking the time to get the MoU right.

In the meantime, it is important to note that the Government have already been acting very much in the spirit of that commitment. I am sure that those with a keen interest will already know that 11 legislative consent Motions have been passed in this Session, with a further 14 positive memorandums recommending consent. Our ambition is that this trend continues.

I turn to noble Lords’ specific questions on the Sewel convention. The Government have set out their commitment to strengthening the convention by setting out the new MoU. We hope to move forward with the agreement and publication later this year. Discussions with the devolved Governments will continue in the coming months in order to finalise a draft. With regard to the specific question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, those will of course form part of our thinking, but it would not be appropriate for me to comment further at this point, given where we are in the negotiations.

On the question of secondary legislation and the Sewel convention—several noble Lords, in particular my noble friend Lady Drake and the noble Lord, Lord Beith, asked about this—although the Sewel convention does not apply to secondary legislation, UK Ministers have made commitments not to use SIs in devolved areas without the agreement of the devolved Governments.

My noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Andrews asked for an update on the programme on implementing common frameworks. I fear that my noble friend Lady Andrews will be much more informed about that than me. However, I can say that 28 common frameworks are provisionally operational, with one having been implemented fully and three at an earlier stage. At the Interministerial Standing Committee meeting in December, all four Governments agreed to finalise the remaining frameworks by the end of this year; we are making best efforts to facilitate this.

While these constitutional issues and discussions are important for the function of good governance, we have also been focusing on delivering across the UK on the issues that matter to people, working closely with the devolved Governments and local partners to do so. This is clearly demonstrated through our work to establish Great British Energy, a new publicly owned company which will own, manage and operate clean power projects up and down the country, generating cheap home-grown electricity. We are delivering on our first step in establishing GB Energy by providing £125 million to set up the new institution at its home in Aberdeen.

In addition, we have published Invest 2035, which sets out a modern industrial strategy that will help deliver growth across the whole of the UK. The industrial strategy is being designed and implemented in close collaboration with local, regional and devolved Governments, the details of which will be published in the coming months. Partnership with devolved Governments will make this a UK-wide effort and support the considerable sectoral strengths of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I have a series of additional answers, but hopefully I will not detain noble Lords too long. The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, asked about the Civil Service. Cross-posting of civil servants can play a key role in the building of first-hand experience of working in another Government. We are keen to make long-term intergovernmental placement opportunities more readily available by working with colleagues in the devolved Governments to remove barriers to them. We are also piloting an intergovernmental shadowing scheme that will provide civil servants across the UK with a more informal but still practical experience of how government works. I will revert on the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, about an update on Permanent Secretaries. On impartiality, she and the Committee will be aware that all civil servants are expected to follow the Civil Service Code and the impartiality requirements laid out in it.

Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear that I take very seriously the role of the territorial offices, given how much time I spend in them, and the roles of their Secretaries of State. It is the role of the Secretaries of State and the territorial officials in the Scotland Office, the Wales Office and the Northern Ireland Office to represent the interests of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland within the UK Government and to advocate for government policies in those nations. We see that working every day, whether that is the city deals being delivered in Northern Ireland, legacy, GB Energy or the additional funding delivered for coal-tip safety in Wales.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Norton, that we could have had part of this debate last Friday, when we had a debate with the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, about the role of recommendations for public inquiries. He made a valid point both last week and today about how the Government should reflect constantly on recommendations and ensure that they are answered.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for reminding us of the dedicated work that her and many noble Lords’ friend, Baroness Randerson, did to make sure that devolution actually worked. I pay tribute to her for her work. If it is acceptable, I will revert to the noble Baroness on Senedd timing and the recommendations of the report.

As ever, I thank my noble friend Lord Murphy for highlighting the importance of making devolution work and how difficult it can be. I think we can all appreciate the challenges he had in his various roles in government. He mentioned Alex Salmond, but he also had to deal across parties in Northern Ireland to make devolution work at some challenging points. I also thank him for his work on the Good Friday agreement, which, as he said, laid out alternative options. I will consider and reflect on what he said about interparliamentary assemblies and how we can make sure that their roles are reflected going forward.

On that note, I thank all noble Lords once again for their participation in today’s debate, but particularly my noble friend Lady Drake and the noble Lords of the Constitution Committee for their report on the governance of the union. I know that noble Lords will continue to take a keen interest in this matter and, undoubtedly, ask me many questions both here and in the Chamber. I look forward to continuing the important discussion we have had today.