European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Monday 13th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Mann, and my noble friend Lord Barwell on their brilliant maiden speeches.

In the words of Charles Darwin, it is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. The easy passage of this Bill through the other place clearly signals a changed parliamentary reality, as the British people supported the offer to “Get Brexit Done”, so we in this House must change our approach. We are leaving the EU on 31 January and this legislation is required to ensure a period of time to adjust, at least until the end of 2020. In line with the Salisbury convention and election promises, we must not frustrate the timetable. It seems that we must give the Government the benefit of the doubt, and I will be willing us to succeed.

As the House knows, I deeply regret that we have lost the argument on our future relationship. I will not be celebrating on 31 January, but I accept it, in line with Martin Luther King’s wise observation:

“We must accept finite disappointment but never lose infinite hope.”


So my participation in this debate is in the spirit of hope. During Committee, I will point out where I consider that the legislation ideally needs amending, as that is the normal scrutiny role we are here to perform. But if Ministers reject the amendments, this House will not prevail, so in that event I must hope that EU withdrawal can move forwards successfully without the changes.

What else do I hope for? I hope that the Brexit ushered in by this Bill will not disappoint those who voted for it, and that the application processes for settled status will not cause distress to EU citizens living and working in the UK. I also hope that Brexit will not undermine UK manufacturing success or jeopardise jobs that depend on our integrated supply chains. I hope, in line with so many pre-election assurances, that it will not mean a border down the Irish Sea or threaten the unity of our United Kingdom., I hope, too, that this legislation will not lead to the sidelining of Parliamentary scrutiny—as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds and other noble Lords so powerfully expressed—with the Joint Committee and Ministers overriding Parliament, nor to a no-deal Brexit at the end of 2020 for want of allowing time to conclude the complex negotiations on our future relationship.

I sincerely hope that leaving the EU will bring a better future for the UK and greater freedom of trade and global interaction—but I must confess to being completely unable to see how all this will be achieved. So I must also hope that I am wrong and that the Brexit supporters are right.

The Prime Minister says that he wants us to remain close friends and partners, and I wholeheartedly agree. Let us hope that we can continue to live in peace on our continent, as we have done for so long since last century’s devastating wars and troubles.

The result of the election was decisive, but I hope that it will not be divisive. I implore the Government to reach out to those who are devastated or fearful of leaving the EU, to reach out across our country and across the regional, political, social and generational divides. The Government intend to get on with improving life outside the south-east and our prosperous cities, especially for the north, and want to create opportunities and improved living standards for all citizens of one-nation Britain. I hope that the Government will bring us together—all our four countries. We are a wonderful nation. Together, we have achieved so much. As we pass this Bill and leave the EU, I hope that we will continue to succeed together, long into the future.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

Trade is one of the key planks in the United Kingdom which binds us together as a nation. Without delaying the House further, I ask the Minister to take back what has been said by Members who have already spoken—and by those who will speak, I am sure—and listen, and put into legislation that which is required to assist us.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, very briefly, I want to add my support to the thrust of these amendments. I express sympathy with my noble friend the Minister. I suspect that, having listened to the arguments around the House, he would very much welcome the opportunity to try to keep to the manifesto commitments, which were so ably outlined by the noble Lord, and recognise the will of the people of Northern Ireland, who, as we have heard from across the House, support the thrust of these amendments, so brilliantly moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hain.

This does not delay the legislation but is about damage limitation. I implore my noble friend to take this back to the department and champion this House’s role of ensuring that the other place properly considers the implications of what is being proposed in this legislation. From looking at the debates in the other place, I do not believe that the sentiments expressed across this House and the wisdom that we have heard this evening were fully reflected there.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the EU committee of which I am a member has spent a lot of time on Northern Ireland issues. Although I do not visit the Province regularly, I used to do business there and greatly enjoyed it; it is a fantastic part of the United Kingdom.

What really worries me goes back to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea: this denial by the Prime Minister that there is any problem here, when clearly there is. Yes, we have it in the protocol that the Province is to be part of the UK customs territory—but in reality it is part of the single market and the European customs union. It is de jure part of the UK and de facto part of the EU in terms of its economy.

The recent report by the EU committee stated:

“Notwithstanding the statement in Article 4 of the protocol that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the UK, the practical implication of the protocol’s provisions on customs will be the introduction of a regulatory border for goods travelling from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. The introduction of such a border within the UK will have financial and political consequences”—


which is probably an understatement.

I was in the EU committee when the current Secretary of State for Brexit, Stephen Barclay, said, on the advice of his senior civil servants, that there would indeed be that border down the Irish Sea, and that there would be documentation; it would not be frictionless. So I find it very difficult to understand why we have this very trite statement, as always, by the Prime Minister, when that is not the case.

To emphasise what the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said, I will quote what has been said today by the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier. He stated that the protocol on Northern Ireland outlined in the withdrawal agreement means that checks on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland would have to be in place. He said:

“The implementation of this agreement foresees checks and controls entering the island of Ireland. I look forward to constructive co-operation with the British authorities to ensure that all provisions are respected and made operational.”


We have not heard a great deal from the European Union on this issue. I suspect that it is very wary about entering the politics of Northern Ireland. But that silence has now broken, and it is very firm. So it would show respect to the Province if the Government could be honest about what is foreseen.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, I have not yet spoken on the Bill, preferring to leave it to the experts —of whom there appears to be quite a lot on these Benches—but I want to speak in support of these two amendments which my noble friends have tabled.

I have a holiday house in Languedoc—not the fashionable part of France. Every time I have gone there during the last three years since the referendum, the people who live and work there, as my noble friends have described, have said to me, “Come on, you’re a Member of Parliament, even in the upper House. Can you tell us what is going on? What are our rights?” I have given them a truthful answer: “I’m sorry. I haven’t a clue and, what is more, neither have the Government”. That is the position we have arrived at today. They have all made the point that during the last three years we have had no fewer than three different Cabinet Ministers responsible for exiting the EU. That was their job, but never, in the whole time of our membership of the European Union, have we ever had a Cabinet Minister whose sole responsibility was to stay within the EU and to make sure it developed in such a way that it improved our relationship with it and that its terms and condition and its new regulations were those that we found acceptable. That was an extraordinary omission that we made during that time.

Some of the people whom I have met are thinking, as one of my noble friends said, taking out French citizenship. If they have lived there for more than five years, they can do that. Another one has found an Irish grandparent and is thinking of taking out Irish citizenship. It is a tragedy that we are possibly losing these people and losing them from the citizenship of our country. It is not desirable at all. A lot of them are aware that I took an active part in the 1975 referendum. I keep pointing out to them that I am sorry because there was a huge difference between the two referenda. In 1975, there were huge public meetings in every town and city in the land; there were huge arguments about our role in Europe, and about the reasons why we were having European unity and the European Economic Community as it then was. This time, it was all about a grubby figure on the side of a bus. It was a very different atmosphere, and one they found very difficult to understand. These people have been treated rather shabbily, and I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will be able to give them some words of comfort.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak particularly to the pensions aspect of Amendment 37, and I draw the House’s attention to my register of interests. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that I understand the dilemma faced by the Government on this issue. There are more than half a million pensioners around the world who have frozen pensions. There has been a sustained and impressive campaign by the International Consortium of British Pensioners to try to persuade the Government to uprate the state pensions of people who live in the 150 countries, of the 200 countries around the world, in which there are not reciprocal arrangements to uprate state pensions and therefore their pensions are frozen. So this issue goes much wider, and I applaud the Government for at least agreeing to uprate the pensions of those citizens who live in the EU, regardless of reciprocation in the meantime. I would encourage my noble friend, and the Government, to consider this in the context of the overall uprating issues for people with frozen pensions around the world. If you live in the US, Mauritius or Jamaica, your British state pension is uprated; if you live in places such as Canada, Australia, the Falkland Islands or Antigua, you do not receive any pensions uprating.

The important issues here are, first, to look at it in the context of the overall policy. That is why I understand the Government’s position in not having committed to uprating at this point. Secondly, it should be borne in mind that these EU citizens—at the very least, those who already live abroad or are over pension age—will have made a decision to relocate on the understanding that their pension would be uprated. They could not possibly imagine a position in which it would not. I hope that the Government, in their future negotiations on and considerations of this issue, will bear that in mind, but I understand the position that my noble friend on the Front Bench is in.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, like several previous speakers, I too have been a member of the EU Justice Sub-Committee. We questioned Ministers on this, and their answers about there being no need for physical proof have been very unconvincing. They show a touching belief in the power of digital and wi-fi, yet all of us know that, at moments of stress, and in places such as airports, schools and hospitals, it is extremely unlikely that the internet will work properly. I cannot see why a simple piece of paper or a little card should not be issued to everyone who has successfully applied.

As for the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, in fact we all have ID cards of one sort or another, as has been pointed out—it is just that the 3 million EU citizens are slightly less likely than the rest of us to have driving licences, national health cards and so on, and therefore are all the more in need of a small piece of paper or card to prove that they are entitled to be here. I therefore support this amendment.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend in the Government on their statement that there will be pragmatism in applying this system. However, what contingency plans are there or could there be in place should there be a major IT failure which prevents somebody, for example, who wants to rent a flat, being able to prove digitally that they have indefinite leave to remain? Maybe the department could consider that further.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their comments in the debate.

The amendment to Clause 7, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Oates, and supported by myself and other noble Lords, is a variant of that tabled in Committee. As the noble Lord, Lord Oates, previously outlined, we are far from convinced by the responses we have heard from government—I think the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said that the Government were “unconvincing”.

Indeed, there have even been a number of contradictory statements from No. 10 in response to Friday’s comments by the European Parliament’s Brexit lead, Guy Verhofstadt. He claimed that the Secretary of State had provided assurances over the provision of physical documentation, as well as confirming a policy of no forced deportations if individuals fail to apply for settled status by the June 2021 deadline. However, the newspapers carried a contradictory quote from a government official, who said of the meeting:

“They discussed their respective position on physical documents. There weren’t any offers or changes from yesterday’s meeting.”


A statement from the Home Office later added:

“There is no change to our digital approach. It has always been the case that people could print a copy of their confirmation letter, but this can’t be used as evidence of status.”


The noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, said that this could lead to ID cards. The response to that is that people will be asked for physical documentation that proves their status now—as I will come on to, people are already being asked for it. If the Government could make this small change, we would be able to move on.

We should look at the last statement from the Home Office. When we travel abroad and hire a car on the continent, before we go we can print out a document from the DVLA which is proof that we are legally able to hire a vehicle and that the driving licence is covered. While the DVLA holds that documentation on computer, we can get physical documentation that proves the position. Again, it would be fantastic if we could see a little movement by the Government on this.

Under the evidence, we are not satisfied that the Government will provide assurances on physical documents, although I hope they will, or that they will verify the policy of no forced deportations for those who do not apply for settled status by the deadline. As the noble Lord, Lord Oates, touched on, a new poll of EU citizens living in the UK found that an overwhelming majority of 70% would favour physical documentation. These are people who have chosen to make the UK their home and to live, work and play in and thus be part of our countries and our society. On this evidence, the Government are going against good practice and the wishes of EU citizens currently living in the UK.

I shall go back to the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley. As many as 11% say that they have already been asked for proof of their status, and there have been warnings from private landlords that the new system could introduce the risk of discrimination.

Why would the Government implement a system that puts people who contribute greatly to our society at the risk of facing discrimination? Are they saying that the current proposal for a digital-only system is risk free? The arguments on documentation and deportation at the end of non-registration or non-agreement to pre-settled or settled status were well rehearsed in Committee and we have heard a number of contributions to that effect today, so I will leave it there. We recognise that the Government have provided some comfort as regards the appeals procedure, but there is too much uncertainty about other aspects of EU citizens’ rights. A representative of the3million campaign group has rightly pointed out that far from providing certainty, the current system is best described as giving an “unsettled status”.

We continue to believe that the declaratory system is the best way forward and that EU citizens should enjoy the same rights as many UK citizens living on the continent. Negotiations have already started and hopefully further talks will secure the position as we go forward. If the Minister is unable to promise to table a suitable government amendment at Third Reading and if the noble Lord, Lord Oates, chooses to push his amendment to a vote, we will support stronger protections for the millions of EU citizens who have made this country their home.

I shall touch briefly on the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. He said that the Government should take every reasonable step to ensure that EU citizens who choose to make the UK their home are treated fairly, and the simple safeguards set out in the amendment would achieve that.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued) & Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st January 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford) (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to speak to the really important issue of reciprocal healthcare, which touches on a lot of UK and EU citizens’ lives. This House has rightly tested this issue robustly and it is right that we consider it today.

The withdrawal agreement Bill guarantees that reciprocal healthcare arrangements, including for pensioners, workers, students, tourists and other temporary EEA or Swiss visitors, will not be affected during the implementation period. During this time, there will be no change to reciprocal healthcare schemes, such as S1 and EHIC, nor to the S2 route which enables planned treatment. Importantly, I can provide assurance that the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill also guarantees lifelong, reciprocal healthcare entitlements for people so long as they remain within the scope of the citizens’ rights agreements. This includes UK nationals who will have moved to the EU before 31 December 2020, as well as EU citizens who will have become resident in the UK before this time. I hope that that explanation is clearer than my letter.

Last year, as has been mentioned, this House spent a considerable amount of time holding informed and important debates scrutinising the provisions of the then Healthcare (European Economic Area and Switzerland Arrangements) Bill. With the permission of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, I will call it HESA. We agreed that this was a key piece of legislation, providing the UK with options to implement any future reciprocal healthcare arrangements, subject to negotiation with the EEA states or with Switzerland after the UK leaves the EU. I understand the desire to know the outcome of these negotiations but, as they are obviously in the future, I am not able to give exact details, other than to say we want to ensure the best possible outcomes.

Following that scrutiny and the assent of Parliament…

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. A number of us on these Benches are deeply uncomfortable with what we are being told, as she well knows. We are willing to give the Government the benefit of the doubt and we hope that this trust will be repaid. We are talking about people’s health and lives: there really is nothing much more important. Will my noble friend take this back to the department, or can she assure us that there will be full information available to all citizens so that they know about this risk at the end of 2020 and can make the appropriate decisions? None of us knows what is going to happen after the end of this year.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

My noble friend Lady Altmann makes a very important point. We have tried to ensure that the information is available and communicated. I am happy to review the clarity of this information and to do everything we can to improve it. My noble friend is absolutely right. We need for anxiety to be at the lowest level and for people to be prepared as possible. I can assure the House that we are doing everything we can to work in the best interests of UK citizens. We understand that there are many in European countries, as well as in the UK, who are looking at this issue with great concern.

I want to get back to the process of scrutinising HESA. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, this established a legal basis for the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to fund and give effect to future reciprocal healthcare schemes through its provisions for data sharing and making regulations. It is important to cast our minds back to that debate. This is an implementation Bill; it does not concern the status of the arrangements. In addition, the Government are committed to the effective implementation of the citizens’ rights agreement and the healthcare protections that it provides.

Questions have arisen as a result of my letter, including those raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, last week. I have been asked why there is no mention of reciprocal healthcare in the Bill. This is because individuals within the scope of the withdrawal agreement are entitled to reciprocal healthcare cover from their competent country for as long as they remain so. The rights of EU citizens, EEA, EFTA and Swiss nationals and their family members who reside in the UK before the implementation period, are brought into UK law through Clauses 5 and 6 of the Bill.

I was also asked about Clause 30. This is limited to implementing parts of the agreement on social security co-ordination and to including reciprocal healthcare and EHIC, so it cannot operate in the way in which the noble Baroness was concerned that it might.

Finally, I was asked whether the consequential powers could be used to revert HESA to the original form—with global scope—that it came to this House in. It cannot. The consequential power does not allow for substantive changes to legislation. It will allow the Government to make only smaller, technical amendments for good housekeeping to ensure that legislation is consistent and functions well. It could not be used in the underhand manner that I think the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, thinks we intend. This would be much too substantial a use of the power; it would not be considered an appropriate use of it.