Public Health

Anthony Mangnall Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Wes Streeting]

If the hon. Gentleman just lets me make this point, I will certainly give way.

Those are broadly the arguments, but I would ask Members on both sides of the House to think about those NHS staff who go to work every day feeling unsafe because their colleagues are not vaccinated. If that is not persuasive enough, I ask them to think about how they would feel if a loved one were treated in a clinical setting or care home by an unvaccinated member of staff through whom they contracted covid and, with it, serious illness or worse. If I lost a loved one through serious illness in those circumstances, I am not sure that I would be very forgiving about the decisions made by Members of this House.

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but that is not what the results of the survey of NHS staff in the healthcare and social care workforce found, which was that 55% of people in the NHS were against this proposal. How does he respond to that?

[Wes Streeting]

I have no doubt whatsoever that opinion in the workforce is divided. I do not dispute that, and it is divided partly because people resent the mandate. Ultimately, however, it comes down to this. It is not just about the broad arguments I have outlined or the specific cases we might be confronted with without this protection; we have to ask whether we as a House think it is acceptable for people working in health and social care, who have a duty of care to their patients, to say, “I am making a choice to put them at greater risk. I am working against the very principles that encouraged me to sign up to my vocation in the first place.” That is why, on balance, I think it is the right measure, but I will come on to talk about the way in which we need to take the workforce with us and what we need to do ahead of April.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) and I thank him for his reassurance that the Whips have not pushed him in that direction.

The Government have done an extraordinary job over the last two years. Rolling out the vaccine so quickly has been an extraordinary achievement as is producing a booster programme in the way we have. There is a remarkable book by Adam Grant called “Think Again”—the title is perhaps apposite for the Government right now—which talks about how we persuade people to take vaccinations and it gives the two case studies of Canada and Germany, where people are not mandatorily required to get vaccinated or pushed in that direction but ways are found to persuade them. We would do well to follow the guidance to be found in that book.

I will vote against the masks measure in SI No. 1400 and support the self-isolation measure in SI No. 1415. In relation to the masks, the legislation is shoddy; it seems ill thought through if, as I said the other day, we can sing, eat or drink with a colleague but not have to go to work with them, and yet masks are introduced in the certain settings. A Government and their legislation have a responsibility to be good and comprehensive; that is not what this is doing.

When it comes to vaccine passports, I will not support them. As countless colleagues have said, there is little evidence to show that they work. I am sorry that no SNP Members are here, because the 70-page report produced by Nicola Sturgeon adds to that point. A very important point was made earlier about the lack of enforceability now that we have the lateral flow tests, because of this slightly dodgy deal that has been done with the Opposition to get their support. The scope for abuse and obfuscation on that is far too great.

When it comes to mandatory vaccinations, I cannot and will not support them. The problem I have with this is that the Government have yet to release the data on how many people have left care homes since we introduced that policy. We need to have the data to be able to review that, because if 60,000, 20,000 or 30,000 people in the NHS decide to walk out, how on earth will we have the capacity to support those who get infected? We need more information before we make those decisions.

Over the last two weeks, the ghost of Christmas past has appeared, and he brings with him fear and uncertainty. We cannot continue to flip-flop and change tack, nor should we be cherry-picking information from South Africa to support the Government’s agenda. I appreciate that the evidence coming out this morning shows that two Pfizer vaccinations do well and that the virus is milder, but we cannot continue to terrify people. I am staggered by the Government’s approach over the last two weeks, during which we have used fear to persuade people. I believe that no Government should ever use fear as a tool to try to persuade their citizens, and that it is what has happened. We must build up our resilience and reduce our restrictions.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. We must move quickly on.