Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Burrowes

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

It is always a great pleasure to follow my fellow Nottinghamshire MP, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). Only two weeks ago we held a similar debate, although it seems much longer, and much has changed since then. Like many Members, I was struck by the desire on both sides of the House that we work together in the spirit that was properly and well outlined by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who talked about the need for honesty and courage.

I congratulate the Prime Minister on his statement and his speech today. I certainly took the view that courage and honesty were the major words underpinning his speech. I hope that on both sides of the House we continue to speak courageously and with honesty about the mistakes made in the past so that we learn from them and, as the Prime Minister said today, that we take this golden opportunity—the opportunity of a generation —to clean up our media and our police and the way we do politics.

As ever, time is against me. I do not want to speak for too long, and in any event I shall probably not be allowed to. I am pleased that the terms of the inquiry include all the media. The right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) was concerned that the inquiry might be used to knock the BBC. The point being made from the Conservative Benches is that there has been concern that the BBC is in some way in a privileged position. In my view, competition in all sections of the media, notably in broadcasting, means that we have better and much healthier media.

I declare an interest. Before I returned to the Bar, I worked for Central Television for many years, so I am a passionate fan of ITV. I know its value, especially as a genuine and true alternative to the BBC. It did a great job in regional news. It is also worth reminding the House of the figures. About 5 million people watch the BBC’s “Ten O’Clock News”. Invariably, fewer than 200,000 watch Sky, but 2.5 million people watch ITV’s news at that time. Those who are in real competition are the BBC and ITV. Long may that continue. I know that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has been in consultation about the sort of changes that ITV wants so that they are on a level playing field. I urge him to consider them, because I know that ITV wants to reinvest money in British television, which is good for our economy.

ITV also wants to encourage regional news. At least two other Members here, perhaps more, from the east midlands will have seen the demise of Central news in recent years. The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) are nodding in agreement. In the good old days it was an equal fight between the BBC’s “East Midlands Today” and “Central East”. Now, as the right hon. Gentleman and others know, “Central East” compromises a 10-minute opt-out, with the news coming from Birmingham. We want to revert to good healthy competition.

Good, healthy competition throughout our media means that people have real choice. We must never forget that, at the end of the day, the people who can determine the future and enable our media to be cleaned up are those who choose whether to buy, to tune in, to use the internet for news, and so on. I made the point two weeks ago, but it is worth making it again: we should urge people not to buy newspapers that breach all the codes. Never mind the written codes: people do not need a code to tell them that they should not hack into the phone of a dead child.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is right to mention the responsibility of the public for their purchasing decisions. It is not just a case of regulation or law, but a cultural issue. Although the public are revolted about people hacking into Milly Dowler’s phone and the phones of other victims of crime, why do we have such a prurient interest in other people’s private lives? Do not we all have to hold up a mirror to ourselves and ask why we buy those papers and feed a beast that we now want to slay? Have we not all got questions to answer?

[Anna Soubry]

I could not have put it better than my hon. Friend has done, and I am sure that we are all grateful for his wise words. He is right. I hope that we will seize the opportunity as a people to change our culture and values. As my hon. Friend says, we should think much more carefully about why we buy papers and enjoy looking at some of the photographs in them. I include celebrities, because it is not fair to say that they, or indeed Members of Parliament, should somehow be outside the code governing the way in which people should operate. When looking at certain photographs, we should think, “That must have been a gross intrusion into that person’s privacy; a long lens must have been used. I won’t buy that newspaper.”

As I said in my question to the Prime Minister earlier, a process of cultural change needs to happen. It involves not just people and the papers they buy, but the way in which the media and the press operate today. That process can begin today. That is why, as has already been said, we should ensure that our police officers no longer divulge details about people who have been arrested. Papers should not print such details or behave in the grossly irresponsible and disgraceful manner that we saw in Bristol.

I had hoped to talk about the police too, but I shall simply say that in my view the police should not have any social contact with any journalist. The press play an important part in the work of the police in preventing and detecting crime, but Nottinghamshire police employ five press officers. They do not need to employ that many. Police officers should use the press, but they should not dine and sup with them.

Family Policy

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Burrowes

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to take part in a debate on such an important subject, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) on securing it. It should be noted that it is only six hours since we were in the main Chamber, and you will forgive me, Mr Meale, for saying that today we have shown our capacity to be full-time MPs without a change in the electoral system.

As all speakers have noted, family policy is not shaped around living in an ivory tower. As my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) said, we are dealing with a policy that affects intractable problems in society—the poverty-stricken estates and the areas in all our constituencies where we see the need to support and strengthen the family, which at its core would provide a stronger community, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned, and by its essence would support the weakest and most vulnerable.

When we debate family policy, we are talking not about the washing powder advert, sanitised version of the family, but about families affected by the deepest problems. I draw attention to the 250,000 to 350,000 children living in households where a parent is misusing drugs; barely four in 10 fathers in such families are in any contact with those children. At least 2.6 million children live in households where a parent is a hazardous drinker, and 750,000 live in a household with an alcohol- dependent parent. Those are deep problems, which are affected by our family policy.

Moving away from those statistics, one can drive down into the individual stories. A number of years ago, when taking part in the Centre for Social Justice’s study of addiction issues, I came across Ruth, who told me that, once, when politicians and others talked about family values she did not have a clue what they were talking about. She was a victim of drug and alcohol abuse, and went through the experiences of children’s homes and further abuse, which previous speakers have described. In words that have long stayed with me, she said that at the age of eight,

“I longed for someone to cuddle me and tell me they loved me, as I just didn’t belong. I cried and I cried but no one heard. My tender heart was breaking.”

Thankfully, Ruth managed to get through the system, going through numerous social workers, homes and allocated workers. The great value of voluntary sector organisations has been mentioned today: Ruth eventually found herself and landed on the help and care of one of those organisations, Victory Outreach UK, run by a Christian couple acting on their own family values of reaching out to others and to the most vulnerable, not just keeping to themselves. They supported Ruth and enabled her to understand what family values were about. She ended up saying that she did understand families and that they were about belonging. She wanted me to ensure that we take account of that as a matter of policy.

Mark was one of my regular clients as a criminal solicitor. No doubt he gave my firm good trade, but he blighted his life and the lives of those around him by being one of the most prolific criminals in Enfield. He was the subject of intergenerational drugs misuse, knowing only what he saw: he saw his mother taking drugs and he continued to take drugs, and from what he saw around him, he knew that the way to get more drugs was to commit more crime. His life was full of potential—he had the potential to train for the Olympics next year in weight-lifting, rather than watch the hatch lifting on cell doors in Pentonville and other prisons around London, which is what he spent his time doing. What made a difference to him and made the lights flicker on, just for a while, was the involvement of family.

I remember a time when Mark had gone through a spate of criminality and ended up in the cells of Enfield magistrates court. The bravura of being a high-profile criminal left him, and he did not demand a cigarette as he usually would, but said, tears running down his face, “Where’s my father? I want to speak to my father.” That was the big issue for him and what he had missed through his life. The lights flickered on again when Mark himself became a father—he suddenly realised that life was not just about himself and feeding his addiction habits and the criminality around him, but about his responsibility to others and his profound responsibility to the most vulnerable person in his vicinity: his child. That was when he realised that he had a responsibility beyond himself to his child and to the community. Sadly, that opportunity was not grasped the first time round and was taken from him, but it was grasped for the second child. There were people and community organisations around him who helped him to engage with the child. Mark is now, thankfully, turning the corner, being a great dad to his child and trying to break that intergenerational cycle of crime and drug misuse.

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

In many ways, what my hon. Friend describes, drawn from his experience as a solicitor, is very similar what our hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) said. She too was speaking from the heart as well as from her experience, as was our hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee). Does he agree that it is imperative that the Government understand and appreciate that lawyers, be they solicitors or barristers, play an invaluable role in bringing families together? We are much more than just lawyers: we bring together other services through our work when we represent people.

[Mr Burrowes]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. I do not want the debate to be too much of a mutual admiration society. The reality is that lawyers are not top of the bill in terms of our promoting them. What they are about is providing a service, especially to the most vulnerable, and we need to ensure that they are part of the picture—it is quite right that they should be part of it—of supporting and strengthening families.

My point is that we do not need a family policy for just one Government Department. I say that with respect to the Minister, and it is excellent to see her here today. She recognises, as we all do, that family policy affects all Departments. When we look at individual cases, we see that support and welfare structures have tended to treat people as one-dimensional clients rather than as the complex and unique individuals they are, who are part of complex and unique families. We need to look at the whole person and beyond them at their whole family, however dysfunctional it might be. We need to look at the mum, the dad—if he is around—the brothers and sisters and the grandparents. The Government need to assess at all times and in all policies the impact on whole families.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash mentioned, family policy is not simply about having a centrally directed policy. Let us take the example of early years child care. High-quality nursery care provision is important, but it is not just about the Government directing that provision; it is about nurturing children in their early years—indeed, in their early days and weeks. That is why we can all welcome the increase in the number of health visitors and the empowerment that that provides. If the parents are dealing with drugs or alcohol misuse, early intervention could indeed mean intervening as soon as pregnancy has been confirmed and creating the opportunity to prevent more children from entering the intergenerational cycle of abuse.

Supporting early years provision also means recognising the value of parents in their nurturing role. More often than not, it is the mother who is involved in full-time care of children in their early years. I want to see a time when that practice is not the preserve of the few who can afford it but a choice that is available to many.

Family policy is not just about money—and more money. Yes, resources help to provide the opportunity for children to have a good start in life, but the most important element in any family is good relationships, which most likely involve having both a mother and father around and, the evidence shows us, the parents being married. That is where Government can play a role. We are having the debate about the proper incentives and support that can help that family structure.

Finally, family policy is not only about mothers. As I said when I talked about Mark, it is about fathers too. It is worth saying that the time that my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash spoke for this morning—15 to 20 minutes—is roughly the time in the average working day that that a father 30 years ago would spend with his child. That that has improved is positive: indeed, a father today typically spends about the entire length of this debate—an hour and a half—and perhaps even a bit more time with their child in the average working day.

We must all recognise that the absence of a father has a profound effect, whether that be seen in problems for the children at school or in their future mental health, employment, and involvement with crime or misuse of drugs. That is why we welcome the approach right across Government of encouraging payment by results, giving incentives and measuring outcomes in all those policy areas that have at their heart the health and well-being of children. In particular, that approach will help to support and incentivise relationships that can become so frayed, but that are so fundamental to improving the outcomes for children.

We have spoken about strong family attachment, the supervision of children, establishing boundaries, affection and emotional warmth, all of which are crucial not only to protect children but to enhance their health and well-being. I believe that this Government will be judged by results and should be judged most profoundly on whether we are protecting and doing our best for the most vulnerable and fighting poverty. The way that we will do all that is by strengthening the family.

Criminal Bar (Public Funding)

Debate between Anna Soubry and David Burrowes

Wednesday 15th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing an important debate, in which I must declare an interest. I have been a practising solicitor, albeit infrequently, for more than 16 years and for 11 years I was involved with instructing the criminal Bar. I therefore certainly have an interest in the debate.

There is obviously the risk of being accused of special pleading for the profession, but there is no risk of winning any votes in this debate—we all know that there are few votes to be won in standing up for lawyers. I also want to declare an interest in the rule of law, which I am sure all hon. Members who have contributed will share. That subject is of interest to my constituents and to this country. Clearly, a principle of the rule of law is that it cannot exist without there being access to justice for every citizen. An independent legal profession, of which the criminal Bar is clearly a crucial component, is the foundation of that principle.

We, in this country, can be proud of our record—of our principles, of upholding the rule of law and of our legal aid record. In any legal aid debate the statistic is always mentioned that we spend more per capita—per head—than almost any other country. However, at the same time—and rightly—one must consider public services and outcomes. So what is the outcome of this expenditure on legal aid? A recent report entitled “Effective Criminal Defence in Europe” considered which jurisdiction was best at providing an effective criminal defence. It will not surprise hon. Members to learn that the jurisdiction that came out best, along with Finland, was this country. That was largely due to the source of legal aid.

Why do we have this legal aid system? It was established some 60 years ago not because we were cajoled by an international agreement or because we felt we should be subject to any European convention; it was established because we wanted to apply the principle of the rule of law. That was summed up well by the US Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black in 1965, when he said:

“There can be no equal justice where the kind of trial a man gets depends on the amount of money he has.”

An independent criminal Bar funded through the legal aid system helps—indeed, it is crucial—to uphold equal justice. What is that equal justice? It is equal justice for the innocent and the guilty, for the falsely accused who gain publicly sympathy, and for the evil criminals who command public contempt. Looking back over my 16 years in the profession, I can think of some clients for whom the public would not want a penny of public money spent, but legal aid provides it and the rule of law demands it.

It might be helpful to have some distance when making the case for the criminal defence service. The following words were written by a solicitor, Paul Booty of McCarthy Stewart Booty:

“As far as those outside the profession are concerned, we get little sympathy, as all we do is drain the public purse ‘getting off’ undeserving, unemployed, drug-taking individuals on technicalities. We twist the law to our own advantage and are thoroughly unscrupulous, with no sympathy for the victims of horrendous crime. It is not surprising, therefore, that we should endure pay cuts from the government year on year; and who cares anyway, because we all drive Bentleys.

The reality could not be further from the truth. We are called to the police station at any time of the day or night. Quite often we are faced with detainees who, if they are ‘regulars’, are extremely vulnerable individuals, often living on benefit with mental illness, depression and dependency. These people are human beings and deserve dignity and fair treatment.”

And so say all of us, both those with a direct professional interest and those outside in the country.

However, although we certainly want to ensure that the system upholds dignity and respect, we also recognise, particularly in these economic times, that it cannot be immune from cuts. When looking for cashable savings in the Ministry of Justice budget, it is obvious that the legal aid budget will have to shoulder a distinct burden when cuts are made. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) was too generous about the previous Government’s record, particularly their legacy for the economy and for the criminal defence service, which has been cut to the bone in many areas and left with great concerns for the future. We can certainly look at how cuts can be made and at high-cost cases, and means-testing is at last coming back to play a part. There will also be proper case management, particularly in preliminary hearings, where we can be much smarter and more cost-effective.

I want to look briefly at the relationship between barristers and solicitors. It is all too easy to play off barristers and solicitors. Historically, they are complementary professions, which is one of the reasons that we have such a proud record. There are enormous strengths in both professions. In comparison to international litigation, the relationship between barristers and solicitors in the UK makes us pre-eminent as a profession. Similarly, in criminal law there is, in the main, a good relationship. The contrast between High Court advocates and the Bar has often been characterised too starkly. In the main, the improvement is helpful, but it needs to be dealt with carefully, with proper training and quality, particularly for High Court advocates.

Obviously, we need to avoid the abuse of the referral fee arrangements that sadly seems to be emerging in various areas. However, we should not pit one against the other. That is not the real threat to the independence of the legal profession and the Bar. There are opportunities in the commissioning arrangements for smaller solicitors’ firms to be subcontracted by barristers and brought into the family of commissioning, where previously they could be excluded by large contracts. The big threat is in the commissioning field, where we are entering a brave new world, and in the contracting process presently applied by the LSC. I believe that the way in which the LSC has operated in the past provides the biggest threat.

There are warnings that must be taken into account and that are already clear in the field of practice, and there are warnings in procurement processes. What has happened to family legal aid is a legacy of how the previous Government oversaw the decimation of highly skilled and committed solicitors, often with great experience of dealing with key issues and vulnerable clients carefully. Existing experience has, in many ways, been excluded from the process. The rug has been pulled from under the feet of many providers. We have been left with legal aid deserts, as we prophesised when in opposition. Poole in Dorset, with a population of 138,299, has been left with one family law solicitor to provide publicly funded work.

Providing solicitors of choice for vulnerable defendants is a matter of concern. In mental health law, those who currently provide for the most vulnerable often have expertise in dealing with vulnerable clients, but now solicitors are effectively being imposed on those clients by the LSC. In the area of administration, there was an example in July of the duty solicitor rotas being reissued twice for a six-month period. Firms were missed off the rotas, areas were put in the wrong position and a simple process led to chaos. Is that the prospect for the commissioning process for the Bar and others?

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that across England and Wales the number of solicitors’ firms is diminishing fast? In Stapleford, a town in my constituency, there is now no solicitor available to provide advice for people with real need in family circumstances. They must travel many miles into Nottingham for that advice, and they are often vulnerable, quite literally, faced with a violent partner.

[Mr Burrowes]

My hon. Friend makes her point well. In that context, the Minister is facing difficult decisions on funding restraints. That context is so important that I am sure he will take account of it. There is an impression that the Ministry is in chaos and that it is having to pick up the bill, but it is not the same the other way round; there is zero tolerance of any minor error when the LSC submits a bill and funding is not provided. As the Public Accounts Committee rightly concluded, the LSC lacks a grip of the basics and is ripe for reform, and I look forward to that reform being pursued by the Government.

Finally, we have to talk about money—something we do not like doing—because there is a concern about cash flow and payment. Solicitors often have to wait some time for payment, and now the goalposts have been moved by the LSC. Previously, it would step in to help if 5% of a bill was awaiting payment, but now it has moved that to 10%. That is a warning to the Bar about what happens when we get into bed with that area of commissioning.

In conclusion, it is important that we stand up for the important principles of the rule of law that underpin legal aid. We of course must cut waste and inefficiencies, which I am sure the Minister has been tasked with, look at high-cost cases and properly reform the LSC to ensure that it is fit for purpose, whatever form it takes, to deal with the new environment. Above all, we must ensure that we do not undermine the strengths of the criminal justice system and an independent legal profession accessible to all.