Pubs Code and the Adjudicator
Debate between Anna Soubry and Adrian BaileyWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
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Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is an unalloyed pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) on securing this debate and on his long-standing and tenacious involvement with the issue, which has played a vital part in bringing this legislation to the statute book.
My own relatively minor and insignificant involvement with the legislation stems from my involvement on the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills pre-2010, under the chairmanship of Sir Peter Luff, and subsequently as Chairman between 2010 and 2015. Significant parts of the legislation are based on our recommendations. Overall, I am absolutely delighted that we have got this far, as it has been a long and hard battle. Having got this far, not to get it all right would be a tragedy. This debate is particularly relevant in assessing where we are with it, the potential consequences of not getting it right and what we can do to ensure that we do.
Although I did not mention them, there were two previous inquiries into the issue even before my involvement, under the chairmanship of Sir Peter Luff. These issues have been debated for well over 10 years in successive Select Committees, and three broad themes have emerged from all the inquiries. The first is the huge imbalance in advantage between the pub companies and the tenants who run their pubs: the plight of tenants, their low income and the churn of tenancies that has played a significant part in the decrease in pubs in our country and in local communities. We must not forget the often harrowing tales of some individuals who have been ruined as a result.
The second theme is the appalling relationships between many tenants and the pub companies and the climate of fear that has prevailed. I conducted a survey prior to the last election on the proposed legislation, and on the incomes and conditions of some of the tenants operating in the pubs in my constituency. I got probably a 50% response and what was significant was that not one of those who responded said who they were or what pub they were in. One person specifically said they were not prepared to respond because they feared some sort of retaliation. To me, that was perhaps more representative than almost anything else of the climate that pub tenants have to work under.
The third theme has been the attitude of the pub companies in responding to the very reasonable and moderate recommendations of successive Select Committees that they sort their own house out and introduce codes of conduct and standards of behaviour on a voluntary basis. It is fair to say that those successive Committees were met with resistance, obstructiveness and, in one classic case, downright abuse. Some long-standing Members may remember Ted Tuppen, the former chief executive of Enterprise Inns, describing the members of Sir Peter Luff’s Business, Innovation and Skills Committee as all being morons. I can take being called a moron; what I am concerned about is that if we do not get this right we might start being called low-achieving morons, and I really would object to that.
Because of the obstructive attitude of some in the industry and the snail’s pace of reform on a voluntary basis, there has even been some reluctance in Parliament. Indeed, the hon. Member for Leeds North West and others will know what a difficult job it was to move the previous coalition Government from their position on voluntary reform to taking the necessary steps to legislating for it. It was only when it became crystal clear that voluntary reform was just not going to work that the Government were prepared to introduce legislation. I give all credit to those involved for accepting that it was not going to work and then taking the necessary steps to introduce legislation.
Having got so far—to a point where we are actually looking at the code—it is crucial to get the code right, because all the history of the involvement of the pub companies shows that they will do whatever they can to find ways of subverting the will of Parliament and what is appropriate to get a fair and equal balance between themselves and the tenants. I will not reiterate comments about the loopholes that have appeared, because they have been thoroughly, effectively and comprehensively articulated by the hon. Member for Leeds North West. However, it is crystal clear that unless amendments are made to the code, there could be ways in which this group—these pub companies—will subvert the long- stated will of Parliament on these issues. I look to the Minister’s response to hear exactly how the Government intend to engage and address the concerns that have been quite properly raised. If they do not, then locking tenants into a statutory framework that fails to address the underlying principle that the Government have articulated—that tied tenants should not be worse off than free-of-tie tenants—will mean an opportunity lost, which could present more and more problems in future.
Let me just say a few words about the appointment of Mr Newby. I do not like getting dragged into issues about individuals and personalities, and I certainly do not like prejudging somebody’s performance. However, I must make a number of general points about the appointment. The first is the crucial strategic importance of getting the appointment right. Whoever is in this post has a pivotal role, not only in interpreting and delivering justice for the parties involved in any dispute, but in transforming, in the years ahead, the confrontational and aggressive culture that exists between the parties, which could be really significant in the future development of this particular industry.
For that to happen, there must be total confidence on both sides of the historic divide, but it is quite obvious that the stated levels of interest of this person have given rise to serious concerns. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) has written to the Minister and I believe there has been a response that sought to allay those concerns, but subsequent remarks by the hon. Member for Leeds North West indicate that there is still huge concern about the perceived level of conflict of interest of the person in this particular position.
[Steve McCabe in the Chair]
My other query on this issue, and perhaps the Minister will allay my fears, is about the accusations—I would not pretend to know just how valid they are, but they appear to have come from a BIS source—that this particular person has been involved with the drafting of the code of conduct.
Anna Soubry
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. May I make it absolutely clear that Paul Newby has not been involved in the drafting of the code? To allay the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, let me say that the only dealings he has had with officials in BIS since the announcement of his appointment, which was made in the House in a speech—without any comment, if I may say so; there might then have been some fractious discussions as a result of an urgent question—have been in relation to the setting up of his office.
Anna Soubry
Let me make it absolutely clear that there has been no help at all in the drafting of the code. The only help has been in the setting up of the office.
Mr Bailey
It is very helpful to have that on the record. I am sure that the Minister will understand, as I do, that often in politics perception can become reality, and if these rumours are going round, obviously that has considerable significance and could underlie or even reinforce the level of suspicion that exists about the proposed impartiality—
Pubs Code Adjudicator
Debate between Anna Soubry and Adrian BaileyUrgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
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Anna Soubry
I can assure my hon. Friend that there has been no influence at all. We sought somebody with the right skills set who could be an experienced arbitrator and who understood the trade and had the ability to see things from both sides. Paul Newby has all those skills and more.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
As Chair of the BIS Select Committee that initiated one of the earlier inquiries which informed this particular piece of legislation, I would not wish to prejudge the performance of Paul Newby, but I emphasise that there is huge disquiet among the tenants. Will the Minister consider that and review the adjudicator’s performance after a certain time, and keep up a dialogue with the tenants to ensure that their concerns are met? Otherwise, this issue will not go away.
Anna Soubry
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I am pleased that he, unlike others, has an open mind. I think he will be impressed by Mr Newby. He is absolutely right in any event that, as with all appointments, if someone is not performing adequately, that is matter of concern and measures can be taken to rectify it. There are many tied tenants in pubs throughout England and Wales, so we must be careful to ensure that groups genuinely represent the voice of all tenants. We must not let a few dominate the debate. It is important to be fair to both sides and to make sure that all the tenant groups are involved; this is why I am a great fan of Campaign for Real Ale, which represents a large section of tenants.
Steel Sector
Debate between Anna Soubry and Adrian Bailey
Anna Soubry
I completely agree with my right hon. Friend and his analysis of the effects of these events throughout south Wales. It is not just the workers who face redundancy, because we know that this will have a huge impact on the local economy right the way through the supply chains. I assure him that we will work with the DWP in these circumstances, and it will send in almost emergency teams to start work now, before any compulsory redundancies are made. That work will be, and is being, done.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister owned up to the failure to implement reform of business rates as part of the toxic package that the steel industry is confronting. Will she examine that issue and provide assurances that in advance of next year’s business rates proposals, the Government will consider putting in place a special package to give some relief to this beleaguered industry?
Anna Soubry
I did not say that we had failed—we have a review going on and it has not come to any conclusion. The hon. Gentleman must remember that in Wales business rates are devolved, and it is up to the Welsh Government whether they want, or can, do anything to assist Tata. Of course we will do everything that we can to support our steel industry, but always within the unfortunate confines of the state aid rules.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Anna Soubry and Adrian Bailey(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Caparo group, which has its headquarters in my constituency and is currently in administration, provides high-quality steel products to the supply chains for both the motor industry and civil aviation. Those products are difficult to source from elsewhere. What will the Minister do to ensure that those companies survive?
Anna Soubry
May I first apologise, because I should have added my condolences to the Paul family on their loss yesterday?
The difficulties in Caparo are not as simple as those involved in the decline in the steel industry, with which we are all familiar. One of the difficulties at the Hartlepool plant, for example, was the decline in oil and gas. We will work with the LEPs—we will work with anyone—to make sure that workers who need extra skills to transfer into new jobs have that opportunity.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Anna Soubry and Adrian Bailey(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Anna Soubry
I am not aware of that being reflected in the report, though if it is, I apologise; my memory may be playing tricks on me, but from my reading of the report, I do not think it is there. I am sorry that I am not being more helpful. If there is any way that I can assist further, I will write to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
18. What assessment he has made of the level of competition in the bidding process for the GoCo contract.