Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Debate between Angus Brendan MacNeil and Paul Beresford

2nd reading
Tuesday 6th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)]

I am not a member of the Trade Committee. I have listened to the technicalities with considerable interest, but having looked at the volumes that have been referred to, I shut them down and turned away. My interest in this, which I must declare, is—as my accent gives away—the fact that I am of dual nationality. I have a New Zealand passport and a United Kingdom passport. When I am in New Zealand, they all think I am a pom, and when I am over here most people think I am an Australian, which is an insult if ever there was one. My interest in this is not quite emotional, but it goes back to where I came from and where we are going, which I hope will be a vast improvement.

This new trade deal puts all three nations more or less back to where we were before the United Kingdom entered the common market. When we entered the common market, the people of the antipodes—Australia and New Zealand, for those who do not know the word—lost many of the trading advantages that they had at the time. To put it mildly, they were very upset. Many Australian and New Zealand professionals, especially in the medical and paramedical services, were effectively discouraged from emigrating to this country. It was very sad, because the net effect was that some of the brightest professional people from those countries—I can add lawyers and accountants to that list—left not for this country but for the United States. When I was chairman of my old university alumni, I ran a big dinner in the House of Commons to which we invited anybody and everybody from the university. Thirty high-class New Zealand professors came over from the United States. They would have come here, except for the restrictions. So this is going to be a really interesting side effect.

When I go back to Australia or New Zealand—I have not been back to Australia for quite some time, but I have been to New Zealand—I am shocked to see the streets and shops full of Asian vehicles and goods. The British cars that filled the streets in my youth are not there, because of the tariffs that were put on them. We have to change that. I look forward to their return, and not just on the streets, because I come from a farming background. When I go to the farms there, there are no Land Rovers; they have Mitsubishis and other vehicles like that.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Paul Beresford]

Ah, the hon. Gentleman is going to sell me a car!

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Tempted though I might be to sell the hon. Gentleman my late father’s 1954 Morris Minor, which is still in my shed in Barra in the Hebrides, I just want to say that I think this is a worldwide phenomenon. I remember Land Rovers being about in my youth, but the vehicles my neighbours are driving now are generally Japanese, Korean and far eastern 4x4s, so I would tell the hon. Gentleman not to be too despairing: this might just be a global vehicle choice.

[Sir Paul Beresford]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman mentioned a Morris Minor, because as a student I was taken backwards and forwards between university and home in a Morris Minor and it was the most hideous vehicle I had ever been in.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

No sale, then?

[Sir Paul Beresford]

I know exactly why the car is sitting in his shed. It is because no one will take it out.

The opportunity is there. The last time I was in New Zealand, I was talking to people about British cars and I mentioned the word “Jag”. They all said, “I would love a Jag, but they are too expensive.” That is what this trade deal is going to turn around. Most New Zealanders and Australians would like to buy British. It still has that mark, and I am not just talking about cars. I have not seen an Aga stove in a New Zealand home for ages, but they would go right into the farming community given half a chance. The removal of tariffs and the consequential price drop will encourage the sale of our vehicles, and much more than that.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned small firms. I have a small firm in my constituency that I visited recently. It has only been going for three or four years. It is run by two or three people, and it produces gin. It is called Silent Pool, and it is becoming a niche and famous gin. When they started, they filled the bottles by hand. Now they have increased production such that it is all done by machinery. They have a huge warehouse on the edge of the property, packed with hundreds—if not thousands—of tonnes of gin, on pallets, wrapped ready to be exported to Australia. They are an example of what this trade deal can do for small firms in this country, because the British people have regained their ability to be entrepreneurs, and to work and to push forwards.

I am interested in the comments made from the Scottish Front Bench. Going back a couple of generations, the peoples that emigrated to Australia and New Zealand were Scots and English, almost entirely. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) might recall that there is a place called Dunedin, the fourth city in New Zealand. I understand—although I will probably be corrected instantly—that the name means “new Edinburgh”. People there would be scathing at his comments about the absence of such a link. Even if they are second or third-generation, it is a truly Scottish town, and in the middle of the Octagon in the centre of the town they have a statue of Rabbie Burns. With good Scots thinking, he is placed there with his back to the church, and faces the pub. How Scottish can you get?

I am a member of the UK National Farmers Union, and this is where I have had some wobbles. In a Westminster Hall debate on free trade with Australia and New Zealand, I mentioned—as has been mentioned here time and again, and indeed my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade covered it—that free trade cuts both ways. We have, in the main, an excellent UK agricultural industry, although it is hampered somewhat; but we must recognise, as has been recognised by speakers today and will be again, that Australia and New Zealand are formidable agricultural giants.

I have many farms in my constituency. The biggest dairy farm has about 350 cows and my biggest sheep farmer has perhaps 1,000 sheep after lambing. Two dairy farms that I know of in the north of the south island of New Zealand are milking 1,500 and 2,500 cows twice daily. In the farm that I left in the high country of Central Otago—which is a bit like the hill country of Scotland, with hill farming—after lambing we had 50,000 sheep. The difference is staggering. The idea that has been put forward by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade of staggering and layering the approach must be the right one.

The difference for farmers in New Zealand is that they are free to farm. I was really disappointed and cross with the comments on the standard of farming and of animal welfare in New Zealand. It could not be higher; it is equivalent to here, but they do not work under all the restrictions, regulations and so on that our farmers here and in Scotland do—many of which come from the EU, and could be removed now that we have come out of Europe. So the chance must be taken now, as we move forward, as these layers change, for the Government to work with the NFU and our farmers—they are not always the same—to ease the strain and make sure that our farmers can farm better and freer.

The UK needs its farmers and food producers. The potential competition from Australia and New Zealand is an imperative that we must look out for, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, but we must use the time we have, because we must keep those farmers.

I am delighted with the trade agreement—obviously, for reasons of my background—and hence with the Bill. I will not read all seven volumes of the agreements—I leave that to the Committee—but for me, it means a return towards normality in our relationship with our nearest kith-and-kin nations and kith-and-kin people. It is a natural thing for us to do, and it is natural that we will get an understanding without the damage that has been predicted, I think incorrectly, by some on the Opposition Benches.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

I can kind of see a bit of what the right hon. Gentleman says. For example, perhaps we should not have to stick ear tags on lambs before sending them to market. At one time, we did not have that hassle of having to put a 50 pence tag in a lamb’s ear, but then consumers said that they wanted traceability; they wanted to know where the lambs came from. We then have a debate between this regulation that is costly to the farmer/crofter and the consumer wanting a bit of traceability. Again, there is a political decision to be made. Do we want to get rid of tags in sheep’s ears, for instance—that is the easiest example that I can think of. That is one of the problems of getting rid of regulations. Which regulations do we want to get rid of? That is a legitimate point of debate, but if we get rid of our regulations, we do have to understand what the impact will be, and who does not want that regulation to be got rid of. Certainly, getting rid of ear tags in sheep—if anybody is listening—would be a help, because they often get lost in the fences. However, I do not think anybody will be listening and we will still have ear tags in our sheep to deal with.

The shadow International Trade Secretary mentioned that, in the early days, there had been a lot of headline chasing. When Brexit was being done, the Government were scrambling around for ideas. Freeports was one such idea—let’s have freeports, they said—but GDP was unquantifiable, whereas, as I have said, the Government have quantified the GDP of Brexit. The Government then alighted on free trade agreements. I have said this often—members of the International Trade Committee are probably ready to fall asleep at this point—but it reminds me of Neville Chamberlain coming back from Munich talking about peace in our time. This is the equivalent; it is trade deals in our time. It is not about what they mean for the economy, but about them looking quite good.

A former Trade Minister—I will not mention his name—was telling me that he had a bit of boosterism from the former Prime Minister. He was told to get on planes and to sign these bits of paper. He was very, very positive. If it was a car he was selling, I would have bought it. When I asked him what was under the bonnet—or what was the GDP gain from this trade deal—he did not know. That goes back to the point about there being no strategy; it is very concerning that he does not know what his trade decisions are doing for the economy. Unfortunately, with all the difficulty and fluff, the economic gain of trade deals is not being looked at, which is disappointing. Certainly, Brexit has left the GDP of the UK weaker, and at a time when we face a cost of living crisis, things are more expensive and people have less money in their pockets.

The final point I want to touch on is food security and what is happening around the antipodean sale of meats. They will say that they do not fill their quota at the moment, but what they will be enabled to do is to fill it more than the European Union’s free trade deal, which is more restrictive than the UK’s—the UK’s is one of the most relaxed, or lax, trade deals. The best cuts can be sent, which helps them with what they call carcase efficiency, with certain parts sent to specific parts of the world, meaning they can take the top part of the market away quite effectively. As I have said, Professor Lorand Bartels found this the most liberal case that he could think of in the world of anybody opening up their food area.

The deal also enables what I would describe as a parachute market for Australia and New Zealand. If something goes wrong in another market, they now have somewhere else to put a big quantity into. That might have an effect in future of displacing and damaging production in the UK. If the current UK is used as a parachute market for a number of years and then the other market is re-established, we cannot turn on production as quickly as we can turn it off. That is a big problem.

I have mentioned that CPTPP will not be like the European Union. It is not a replacement; it is a smaller GDP and it will be more difficult still to sell into that market. In the CPTPP, I do not think that access into one country will be access into all countries, as it is for the European Union, although that will be clarified tomorrow for those who want to tune in to the International Trade Committee.

We have a situation where the Australians cannot believe they have done so well. New Zealand television is utterly amazed and asking, “How come it is so easy?”. It is because the UK Government have been seen coming. People know they are desperate to get into CPTPP and they think that if they get these trade agreements done, that will happen. That goes back to the point made by the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) that the antipodeans were furious about the changes in the ’70s; this time perhaps they feel collectively that they have got one over the Poms, as they might describe them.

[Sir Paul Beresford]

rose—

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Having mentioned the hon. Gentleman, I will certainly give way to him.

[Sir Paul Beresford]

The hon. Gentleman has to recognise that they are also looking for other things that we can produce and that we will send there. I mentioned Jags, but there are all the cars, all the farm machinery and those sorts of things, and that is the opportunity they see. They naturally would prefer to buy from here than from some other countries that I will not name.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. In Scotland “jags” means something that goes into your arm, usually against covid—I think they are called jabs down here—but I think he means the Jaguar car. Of course it is in Australia’s power to buy the Jaguar car; it is then Australia that puts the tariff on the cars coming in. If Australians are moaning that they cannot buy Jaguar cars because of the tariffs, they need to see the Australian Government, who, despite what they say, are not producing any cars and whose very free and open market is not as free and open a market as they let on.

Future Free Trade Agreements

Debate between Angus Brendan MacNeil and Paul Beresford

Thursday 21st February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)]

As usual, I have a couple of declarations to make. First, I belong to the National Farmers Union, not as an active farmer but certainly as a member in this country. With my background that is to be expected. Secondly, as my accent has already made clear, I have dual nationality. I come from New Zealand and I have a New Zealand passport. I also have a UK passport and I have lived here longer than there. I am extremely supportive of what the Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) says, particularly when he talks about negotiations to join the TPP, and working on negotiations for a deal with Australia and New Zealand. Australia and New Zealand can teach us a number of things as we head into a field that they headed into as we went into the EU.

There are at least two relevant factors involved in the negotiations on going into the TPP. First, most people see Britain as an asset as a TPP partner. After all, free trade agreements are two-way—or perhaps I should say that they cut both ways. Secondly, as I have made clear, we almost certainly have at least two friends, two Commonwealth friends, who have been supportive for generations, even kith and kin. They will be supportive as we move towards the TPP.

When we went into the Common Market, New Zealand’s trade with this country teetered overnight from 90% to 50%, and then dwindled to 5%. It must find it a bit strange and have a wry smile that we want to go back. Fortunately, it is most likely to be helpful and positive to our interest, but equally, we must remember, with its own interests definitely in mind. After the crash of the New Zealand economy when we entered the then Common Market, New Zealand and Australia forged an aggressive export drive. They also shocked their economies into action. In New Zealand’s case, I remember the Prime Minister, a few years after that trade blow, explaining to one of our well known characters on the “Today” programme that it had lifted its trade export market to over 100 more countries. We need to watch that as we go out. There was a slight but not too serious hiccup between Australia and New Zealand when a small group of Australians suggested that New Zealand should become another state of Australia. That generated much antagonistic steam. In fact, the New Zealand Prime Minister at the time stated that

“Any New Zealander moving to Australia would increase the IQ of both countries.”

I am sorry that the hon. Member for Australia and Scotland has left the Chamber. [Laughter.]

The main export for New Zealand then and now is agriculture. New Zealand farming was radically shaken up very quickly. Farming subsidies were removed at a stroke overnight, but so were the restrictions. The freedom that gave those farmers made such a difference to them entering a really effective market. Farming became an industry. It became open, competitive and free market. Australia did much the same. They will be our competitors and partners both through our trade agreements and if we go into the TPP.

I find the thought of a Pacific link curious, because the only UK geographic link to the Pacific is the overseas territory of Pitcairn Island. As has been said, I understand that Simon Birmingham, the Australian Trade Minister, did not sound particularly enthusiastic—we heard a couple of quotes. Contrary to that, however, he has also said that Australia is ready to fast-track some sort of deal with the United Kingdom. New Zealand, on the TPP, was a little more confrontational. Commenting on New Zealand’s membership of the TPP, Catherine Beard, the executive director of ManufacturingNZ and ExportNZ said:

“New Zealand would benefit from $222 million in tariff savings yearly.”

As an NFU member, I am also aware that she said:

“Agriculture is widely expected to be a big winner with kiwi fruit, beef, wine, dairy, forestry, and seafood products all expected to benefit from savings on tariffs and the chance to more easily make aggressive entries into foreign markets.”

That could be a warning for us. I think of that when I look round my Mole Valley farms. My constituency has a dairy farm that is supposed to be big. It has 350 cows. Mole Valley has sheep farms with perhaps 1,000 sheep, and some of those farms get 90% of their income from subsidies. These farms are tiny compared with New Zealand and Australian farms. Two dairy farms near where I lived as a youngster in New Zealand milk 1,500 and 2,500 cows, twice a day. The farm I came off in the middle of the South Island had 1,000 head of cattle, 1,000 head of deer and 23,000 lambing ewes. When they lambed we had 50,000 sheep. The land, the atmosphere and the weather resembles much of the hill country of Scotland. It is right up where “Lord of the Rings” was filmed.

We have nothing to compare with that here in the UK. The size and the power of the industry in New Zealand could shatter our farming. If we are going for free trade, we have to wake up. We have time. We can do something about it, but we have to give our farmers the chance to dramatically improve. There is protectionist talk of product care and standards matching ours. That is the correct approach, but it is the correct approach for food safety reasons, but not for protection because Australia and New Zealand meet those standards already.

Vineyards are another classic example. There are square miles of vineyards in New Zealand. You can stand on a high hill and see nothing but vineyards.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman talks about improvement. I just wonder what he means by that. Does he mean expansion and growth? When he talked about having 23,000 sheep, with 50,000 after lambing, my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) asked me, “How many do you have?” I said 32—just 32. We are talking about a hugely different scale. Is he talking about farms in the UK getting bigger and amalgamating, and a whole change in the structure of UK farming?

[Sir Paul Beresford]

There is a list of ways in which we can look at that. Perhaps I can answer with an old story. I was upbraided by my farmers some time back and they finished with an anti-politician joke. I explained to them that the son of one of my Surrey farmers had gone out to New Zealand and had bought a farm the same size out there. When shearing time came around, he called up the shearing contractor and said, “Will you come and shear my sheep?” The contractor said, “I’ve got two gangs near you. One’s up the Waimakariri and they have 17,000 sheep to go, and the other ones can be with you next week. How many sheep have you got?” He said, “17.” The contractor said, “17,000?” He said, “No, no—17 sheep.” The contractor said, “Oh, are you English?” He said, “Yes.” The contractor said, “Are you from Surrey?” He said, “Yes.” The contractor said, “Right —you’re English, you’re from Surrey, and you have 17 sheep. Can you tell me their names?”

What I am getting at is that we have an opportunity—I will touch on this in a minute—to counteract that. Australia is a huge agricultural producer. The gross value of Australian farm products in 2016-17 was $60 billion. The Australians export about 77% of what they grow and produce. Fortunately, through the TPP and other arrangements, those two nations are pouring their products into Europe, China, the middle east and even the US, and they are not fulfilling their quotas. There is a real opportunity for us to improve our efficiency in farming and everything else, because Australia and New Zealand may well be looking for us to help them to fulfil those quotas, including, particularly, the quota for lamb meat going into the EU.