amendment of the law

Debate between Angus Brendan MacNeil and Lord Darling of Roulanish

Monday 25th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Darling]

With due respect to the hon. Gentleman, I anticipated that predictable nonsense. I am grateful to him for intervening, however, not least because he has given me another minute in which to make my case.

As the Office for Budget Responsibility points out, the recession is taking far longer to come out of than any we have seen previously. The principal factor is that in 2007-08 we had a complete collapse of our GDP and that situation has not been recovered in the past five years. Frankly, on the evidence presented by the Chancellor last week, I see little evidence that it is going to happen. As a result, we are borrowing very large sums of money: £120 billion last year, this year and next year.

As I was saying before the hon. Gentleman interrupted, in the Chancellor’s forecasts, yet again in the back three years of the forecast period we see an expectation that growth will go from 2.7% to 2.8% in 2017. That is exactly the same profile that we have seen in each of the Chancellor’s Budgets and autumn statements. The problem is that these sunny uplands are moving to the right each time he stands up. I cannot for the life of me see why anything will be any different in 2017 from the bleak outlook we see today. The problem is that as long as we have low growth we will have high levels of borrowing, and debt is now expected to peak at 85% of our GDP. When we advocate a different approach, the Conservatives and the Liberals say that we are talking about borrowing more, but this Government are borrowing more than they ever imagined they would in 2010, and they are doing so not to invest in things such as infrastructure, but because of the price of their economic failure. That is what many of us have a problem with.

[Mr MacNeil]

Surely by boasting that he would cut harder and deeper than Thatcher, the right hon. Gentleman set the tone for the cult of austerity that we are now living through.

[Mr Darling]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but not in the way he intended, because that is nonsense too. Incidentally, in the leaked document from John Swinney, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth, the Scottish Government too faced up to some difficult decisions. The difference is that I and—to give them credit—the coalition Government were open about the difficulties we faced, whereas the Scottish National party wanted to keep them secret from the Scottish people.

It seems that the Chancellor has given up on doing anything. As I said last week, we are in the middle of a lost decade—it happened to Japan and it is happening to us now—and there is no sign that the Government have any idea how to get out of it. The Government’s Budget response on infrastructure is fine, but it does not come along for two or three years. On housing, I agreed with everything that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), the shadow Secretary of State, said. The problem is that last week’s announcement is more likely to create yet another housing bubble by driving up asset prices. Indeed, some of it might even sow the seeds that gave rise to the sub-prime mortgage problem we saw in the United States, because we are suffering from an acute lack of housing in just about every town and city in the country.

I was encouraged by what the planning Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), said over the summer. Unless we break through this logjam and get more housing built, prices will go up and up and people will face the same difficulties they did in the past. The irony is that we are not prepared to build houses, but we are prepared, it seems, to finance the inflation of a bubble in housing prices. That is absolutely the wrong thing to do. The bedroom tax illustrates the problem; there simply are not the houses for people whose income is being cut to move to. That illustrates the need to improve our housing infrastructure, although the problem applies to transport and energy as well. I do not object to some measures in the Budget, but nothing in it is likely to get our economy going.

The hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds referred to the Bank of England and said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had effectively said, “I can’t do anything further in fiscal terms. It’s all up to the Bank of England now.” Most Members have warmly welcomed the appointment of Mark Carney. I think he will be a very good Governor, but with the best will in the world we cannot expect him to do everything the Government are supposed to be doing. It is useful that we can tell the markets what we think will happen to interest rates. I suspect that most people do not expect them to rise for the next two or three years, although they might rise in the United States, given that the US Government are following a different policy from that being followed here and in Europe.

I do not think, however, that the sort of measures the Chancellor has in mind and which the new Governor might announce in relation to forward guidance will do the trick and get our economy going. I have said before that quantitative easing has played its role and stabilised the banking system—I have supported what has been done so far—but there is little evidence of what additional QE would do for our economy. The risk is that the money simply goes into the bank vaults, not into the wider economy. The Bank will play its part, but monetary policy and fiscal policy have to be complementary, otherwise they simply will not work.

Time does not allow me to mention the eurozone, other than to say that the last week has confirmed my suspicion that the eurozone is almost psychologically incapable of sorting out its problems. Unless it does so, it will hold back growth not only in this country, but elsewhere. At the same time, I am committed to this country remaining part of the European Union—that is very important—although we need to use our influence. Governments can make a difference. In 2008-09, through the G20, Governments from across the world, from communist China to the Republican-led United States, came together and we did what was necessary to support our economies. And guess what? Our economy was growing in 2010. Look at it now.

The Economy

Debate between Angus Brendan MacNeil and Lord Darling of Roulanish

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Darling]

I will address that point later. It is an important point, and I do not believe we should just sit back and hope that growth returns. The shadow Chancellor and many others both inside and outside the House also do not believe that the Government’s approach is right.

We are heavily dependent on money that is coming in from a financial transaction. In addition, the OBR has now found that by 2016-17 our revenues will be £30 billion less than it forecast in March. That is a huge gap, which will have to be filled.

What should we do? Whenever the Opposition suggest that perhaps the Government could do a little more, the Government parties—the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats—always say, “That’s all about borrowing more.” This Government are borrowing £212 billion more than they said they would not because we are spending money on projects and so forth, but because of failure—because our revenues are down. That is why we have got this gap.

When we eventually have a recovery, this country will need infrastructure. Over many years, we spent a lot of money on transport and energy. That was the sort of spending the Government say should not have been made, but we now know it was desperately needed, and we need to invest more in infrastructure, as well as get debt and borrowing down. We must invest in education, too.

On energy, the Government’s policy is completely contradictory. We are getting different signals every day of the week. On transport, I say again that it is not good enough to have no airport policy until halfway through the next Parliament, when we will not be able to do anything as another election will be coming up. That is not the right signal to send to our country, let alone the outside world.

Investing more in infrastructure projects would be one way to get confidence back. Confidence was trashed two years ago. If anyone were running a business now, would they hire more people or open a new production facility? No, they would not, because it appears that the economy will be bumping along the ground for another five years or so. I again remind Members of what has happened to Japan. People say, “We would never be like that,” but Japan has had non-existent growth for 15 years.

[Mr MacNeil]

Some commentators—at one time Ben Bernanke, and lately notably Paul Krugman—have talked about higher inflation targets for Japan, and also for the UK and other countries that are suffering a downturn. What is the right hon. Gentleman’s opinion on that? Does he, too, support higher inflation targets as a way of stimulating recovery?

[Mr Darling]

There is a lot of debate about that issue. I do not have the time to address it in detail, but I have said—including in a programme that will be broadcast tonight—that I think the Bank of England needs to examine its role, because for a long time we have said its job is purely to target inflation, yet central banks across the world are now also targeting growth, and perhaps we should consider whether we should formalise that role. Mark Carney was an excellent choice as the next Governor, and I hope he will think about that.

Talking about Governors, the current Governor, Sir Mervyn King, made an important point in New York last night when he talked about the G20, which had done so much at the height of the crisis in 2009, showing the determination that people expected in order to prevent the entire world economy from going over a precipice, and said that that spirit was now dead. He is absolutely right about that. It is important that we in this country, along with President Obama, now that he has been re-elected, look again at what we can do collectively as part of the global community to try to get the world economy not only to resolve some of the problems we face, but get growth going again.

That inevitably takes me on to Europe and the eurozone, because it is a tragedy that a legal structure and an economic structure that could do something about getting growth going again is simply failing to do so. Greece is not sorted out yet; another attempt was made a couple of weeks ago, but as far as I can see it leaves Greece with even more debt than it had. Until the Spanish banks are bailed out, they will simply hold back the whole of the eurozone, and the sooner Spain goes to get the bail-out it needs, the better it will be. Then we need to deal with the question of austerity. Austerity on its own does not work. Those who are interested may wish to know that there is an interesting article by Olli Rehn, the economic Commissioner, in today’s Financial Times, in which he just asserts that it is going to work, in the same way as this Government assert that austerity is going to work—frankly, I do not see it. We need to use our engagement in relation to the eurozone and to the European Union to try to persuade countries that unless they act together, in the same way as we did three or four years ago, although in a slightly different context, we and the eurozone countries are simply going to bump along on the bottom for years. If that is the case, the human cost is that we are condemning tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people in this country, and perhaps millions of people in the European Union, to unemployment and low standards of living. If we do that, future generations will never forgive us.