Angus Brendan MacNeil
Main Page: Angus Brendan MacNeil (Independent - Na h-Eileanan an Iar)Department Debates - View all Angus Brendan MacNeil's debates with the Scotland Office
(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Laing
My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) makes an extremely important point, which is at the very centre of this debate. He mentions Afghanistan and Iraq, where he has seen recently and personally the contribution made by brave servicemen and women from every part of this United Kingdom and our allies in other parts of the world—from every part of the United Kingdom, and they do not ask each other, “Which is your country?”
It is our country for which we fight, not only in Afghanistan and Iraq, but going back in our history, through the second world war, through the first world war, which in two years’ time, just at the time of the referendum, we will remember. That war started 100 years before the referendum is due to take place. Brave Scots joined brave Englishmen, Welshmen, Irishmen—
Mrs Laing
No one is suggesting that history stands still. I am referring to history as history. What happened 100 years ago we will commemorate as having happened 100 years ago, but we will not forget it. Those who forget history suffer for having done so. The point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset is that right now, at this very minute, brave servicemen and women from Scotland, England and other parts of the United Kingdom are fighting together to guarantee the freedom of our country, our whole country. That is not history. That is current. It is right now.
Last week or the week before last, as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) will remember, we had a debate in Committee Room 14 organised by the Law Society of Scotland, a fine bunch of people. Before I took all those interventions, I was speaking about Scots outside Scotland. The Law Society of Scotland has an enormous number of members, of which I happen to be one, in London. Committee Room 14 was packed. We had a really good and lively debate but, despite his excellent speech, not one person in that Room voted to support the hon. Gentleman— not one, and I promise I had not invited them all personally.
Continuing on the same theme, last night I attended another packed meeting held here in London, in Chelsea, by Friends of the Union. It was a great surprise to me to bump into the chairman of the Essex Conservatives, a very nice gentleman whom I see frequently in my constituency. I said something along the lines, “I didn’t know you cared, Adrian.” He explained to me in no uncertain terms that he and many of the other people who were there at that event for Friends of the Union had come of their own accord because they are fed up hearing that people in England and the rest of the United Kingdom do not care about Scotland. That is simply not true and it will be proved not to be true as this debate takes hold throughout the whole country. He said to me, and other people came and joined in the conversation, “We are here because we care about the United Kingdom and we care about Scotland as part of the United Kingdom.” They value the United Kingdom. They know that we are better together.
As we consider the motion and the amendment, and as we seriously begin the debate in the country, let us at least try to get the language right. This debate is not about nationalism. Scotland is a nation. We are proud of our nation. I discovered earlier that it happens that tomorrow is the 140th anniversary of the first football international between Scotland and England.
Mrs Laing
It was held in Glasgow and I am pleased to say it was a no-score draw. But the point about it is that one can have an international only if one has a nation. We all go to Murrayfield, Twickenham and the Millennium stadium and cheer on our national football, rugby and other teams, because each of the component parts of the United Kingdom is a nation. So let us stop arguing about whether Scotland is a nation. That is not a question. Scotland is a nation, as is England, Wales, Northern Ireland and so on.
The debate is not about independence. That is another misnomer. Scotland is independent and is in charge of her own destiny. Scotland has and always has had her own institutions—the law, the education system, the Church. I speak as living proof as a graduate of Edinburgh university, a member of the Law Society of Scotland and a member of the Church of Scotland, but more important than that to me, I am a member of the Epping Forest Scottish Association. As the Member of Parliament for Epping Forest in the proud county of Essex, I have no conflict between my nationality as Scottish and British, and my constituents have no problem about having somebody represent their constituency who happens to have been born in another part of the United Kingdom. This is a time when people around the world are breaking down barriers and coming together. It is wrong to construct barriers that we do not need.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to have the opportunity to contribute to this timely and important debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on securing it. I am proud to be a co-signatory to the motion.
The hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) set out very well many of the practical benefits that Scotland and, indeed, the rest of the United Kingdom gain from the Union, be it in defence, finance and economic matters, or our influence on the world stage. We could, and should, have a full debate on each of those points, and I am sure that in the course of the next year or two, leading up to the referendum, they will all be fully explored. To summarise the benefits—I think that the hon. Gentleman used this phrase—the strength of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. We are stronger together.
Scotland could go it alone as a separate country. I am not one of those who believes that it would be an impoverished basket case of a country that could not survive on its own. Of course it could, but at what cost? Together, we are stronger, more influential, safer and more prosperous. It would be much riskier for everyone if Scotland went it alone.
Mr MacNeil
Does the hon. Gentleman have a list of nations of about 4 million to 5 million people that might be better off joining the UK because they would be safer, more prosperous and more influential? Is he considering Denmark, Sweden or Finland? What is at the forefront of his mind?
Iain Stewart
I am puzzled. Is the hon. Gentleman asking for other countries to come and join us in the United Kingdom? That is a very interesting notion.
A few years ago, the global banking crisis sent economic shockwaves around the world. The SNP used to make a claim for the arc of prosperity that would link a separate Scotland with Ireland and Iceland, but that arc has rusted somewhat in the light of events. A separate Scotland could have weathered that storm, but the resilience that we had as a country was much stronger because we were the United Kingdom and not split up into atomised parts.
Mr MacNeil
I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not want to cast aspersions on Iceland and will therefore know its unemployment rate and GDP per capita as against those of the United Kingdom.
Iain Stewart
I cannot give those figures off the top of my head. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that Iceland was any better placed to weather the storm than the United Kingdom, that is a slightly revisionist view of history.
Another issue is Scotland’s role in the European Union if it becomes a separate country. There was an interesting debate on that in Westminster Hall last week. In the interests of brevity, I will not rehearse all the arguments. I believe strongly that if Scotland went its own way and wanted to be part of the EU, it would happen on the EU’s terms. Scotland would be sucked into full currency, fiscal and political union, which would not be to its benefit.
Iain Stewart
I will not give way again.
The EU issue makes a mockery of the SNP’s independence policy. It is perfectly logical to argue that if Scotland does not like one economic union and wants to be the master of its own destiny, it should go its own way, but to argue that it should then join an ever-deepening union is utterly illogical.
The fact that we are having a referendum at all is risky as it may be a distraction from what we should be concentrating on. I do not doubt for a minute that it is perfectly within Scotland’s right to have the debate and to have the matter resolved. As a democrat, I fully accept that the Scottish National party won a majority in the last Scottish Parliament elections and that a referendum was part of its manifesto. It is therefore perfectly legitimate to have the debate. But at what cost? The constitutional uncertainty in Canada in the 1980s and 1990s had a severe impact on the economic prosperity of Quebec. The EU admitted that in a report.
Iain Stewart
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I have a number of points that I want to make and I have already been generous in giving way to him.
A report by economists at the appropriately named Scotiabank in Canada said of the 1995 referendum:
“The palpable fear in the markets was keyed off deep intertwined concerns about the country’s fiscal, economic and political circumstances.”
The very fact that we are having this debate is therefore risky as it may distract us. However, I accept that it is legitimate that we are having it.
My main point relates not to the economic or defence arguments or to Scotland’s influence on the global stage, but is a personal and emotional appeal. My nationality is British. I do not want to be rendered stateless or to be forced to choose between the place of my birth and the place I now call home. The country that would be left would be the rest of the United Kingdom and its flag would be, as the noble Lord Forsyth described it, “an anaemic red asterisk” once the blue of the saltire was taken out.
As far as I can tell, my blood is 100% Scottish. My father has traced the generations of the family back to the 1700s. Unless there is something we do not know about, my family came from a small area in Lanarkshire and Ayrshire. I spent my childhood in Scotland. My primary and secondary education was in Scotland, but my higher education was in England. Three quarters of my working life has been spent in England. Through marriage and my family, I have many relatives who are part Scottish and part English. I have stood for public office five times: twice in Scotland and three times in England. My Scottish ventures were somewhat less successful than my English ones. I stood for South Lanarkshire council and for Glasgow Rutherglen. Let us just say that I saved my deposit on both occasions.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest said forcefully, of course Scotland and England have distinct cultures that are expressed through the arts and on the sporting field, but both can be vibrant within the Union. Patriotism does not require nationalism to flourish. Beyond a patriotic pride, the United Kingdom has something that is much stronger. Team GB at the Olympic games exemplified it, the monarchy exemplifies it, and even James Bond exemplifies it. We have an identity that has been forged through more than 300 years of the world’s most successful and enduring Union. We do not need to change. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) said that that is history. It is history, but it is also the present and I believe that it is the future. For goodness’ sake, let us not throw away what we have achieved and what makes us strong, prosperous and successful in an ever-changing world that is becoming more dangerous and uncertain. We have something that is strong and that works; let us keep it.
Pete Wishart
I will not give way to the hon. Lady, because I do not have much time.
That Britishness has no place in discussions on independence simply because it cannot be un-invented. We cannot un-invent all our ties, heritage and culture; we will always have a shared history and joint heritage, and there will always be cultural relationships and collaboration.
Independence will bring a new, improved relationship between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, because we will come to it from a position of equality and mutual respect. Most people in Scotland now describe themselves as Scottish—some, of course, describe themselves as and feel profoundly British, but most surveys of social attitude suggest that most Scots now present themselves as Scottish.
As we have gone forward with our own national Parliament and strengthened our institutions, Scottish people are feeling more secure in their identity and more culturally relaxed about who they are. That is why we are able to adopt different identities and why we can easily accept the idea of being Scottish—we could be Pakistani Scottish, Indian Scottish, Polish Scottish, but we are all Scottish and that is how people now describe themselves. With independence, we could express our unique Scottishness in world institutions. We could bring Scottish values to international affairs and institutions, and that would only be good for people in Scotland.
Mr MacNeil
Does my hon. Friend agree that sharing a Prime Minister is not what makes hon. Members in the Chamber today British?
Pete Wishart
My hon. Friend is right. Britishness is about identity and geography. Our gripe is not with cultural Britishness or the social union—
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point and I was just going to come on to that. While there is the case for devolution and people having a role in deciding issues in Northern Ireland, there is no doubt that the people who would at one time have looked to the Celtic tiger and envied what was happening in the south have had a rude awakening about economic realities and the situation in the United Kingdom and other countries in the EU. It is clear that the massive economic boom in the Republic was built on a number of factors, not least a property boom that crashed dramatically. I have heard it said many times by people who traditionally look to the Irish Republic as their future, “Where would we be today if we’d been part of the eurozone? Where would we be today if we had been part of a country like the Irish Republic, instead of having our fortunes tied in with a bigger country like the United Kingdom?” That has been an important factor.
Who would have believed 20 years ago that we would be talking about the danger to the Union coming from Scotland, rather than from Northern Ireland? I heard the leader of Sinn Fein say that he was going to campaign for a referendum in Northern Ireland. There is absolutely no support for that. Of course, we do not fear a referendum in Northern Ireland. We know that people would vote overwhelmingly to retain Northern Ireland’s membership of the United Kingdom. We are not opposed to it for any reason of concern about the outcome; however, under the provisions of the legislation, once Northern Ireland has a referendum, it has to happen every seven years, and we believe that that would be extremely destabilising and unnecessary. When I hear Gerry Adams talk about the need for a referendum, it is a long way from his cry that there would be a united Ireland by 2016.
Thankfully, the debate on the future of Scotland in the Union has never been tainted or stained in any way by violence and terrorism. The debate is being conducted in a peaceful and democratic way, and it will be decided through the ballot box. As I said, we respect the right of the Scottish people to decide their future. Of course, it is right and appropriate that people from other parts of the United Kingdom should have their say as well. We believe that we are better off together. That is an excellent campaign description—it is positive and people are responding to it. It is not being stated in an arrogant or aggressive way. Instead, people are saying, “We want you in Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom.”
Mr MacNeil
The right hon. Gentleman mentions the Better Together campaign and I think I heard that the Irish Republic’s Agriculture Minister was at his recent party conference. Does he extend the Better Together ethos to the Republic’s Agriculture Minister, and would he like to be in one state with him?
Mr Dodds
I think the hon. Gentleman knows me and my party well enough by now to know the answer to the question of whether we think we would be better off in the Irish Republic. We had a very successful party conference this year. The shadow Secretary of State spoke at our conference dinner, and the Secretary of State spoke to conference on the Saturday. I was delighted to hear her declare in unequivocal terms that she would never be neutral on the Union. Of course, we also had the representative from the Irish Republic. We welcome visitors from other states, and we have visitors from outside the United Kingdom—of course we do. The reason the Agriculture Minister was there, appropriately, is that the Irish Republic is to take over the presidency of the EU, and the reform of the common agricultural policy is extremely important for Northern Ireland farmers. It is important to hear from that Minister and to lobby him directly, particularly at this time, on those important issues. The response to that in Northern Ireland was positive.
We will continue to build good relations with our friends in the Irish Republic, but we make it very clear to them that we do not wish to join it. We can have good neighbourly relations and, increasingly I think, those in the Irish Republic recognise that they have enough problems of their own without taking on any more in Northern Ireland. They are content to stick with the status quo, and they have declared clearly that until people in Northern Ireland vote otherwise, they will respect totally the principle of consent.
Time is going on and others have articulated the why Scotland would be worse off if it left the Union. I agree with what has been said. Not only would Scotland be worse off, but the United Kingdom as a whole would suffer from Scotland’s absence. A fragmented United Kingdom would not be as strong as we are together. Without Scotland, we would be a smaller nation in every sense, not just in population, economy and geography, and that is something that we do not wish to see.
Mr Dodds
No, I will not give way any more. I have given way twice already and time is limited. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will make his own speech.
This is a question not just of economics, but of our standing in the world. Our nation would be diminished if Scotland left, and with that would come a loss of influence and power. There are deep and lasting social and historical bonds that bind us all together in the constituent nations of the United Kingdom. The military links and the history of the regiments of the British Army have already been explored. It is the British Army—it is not made up of the nations of the United Kingdom. The UK did not evolve spontaneously; it came about as a result of our shared experiences and history, and of our bonds of language, culture and so on. Furthermore, of course, the union of the monarchy has been around for longer even than the political Union.
Those are the bonds that have brought and tied us together as four countries, and they have grown, deepened and developed over time, with enormous consequences for ourselves and the rest of the world. Each of our countries—Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England —and their people have all played their part in the development and prosperity of the UK, and those bonds continue. The contribution of the Scottish people and Scottish business remains vital, and the Union remains of benefit to both Scotland and the UK as a whole.
I hope that the debate on the referendum will be conducted in a constructive spirit. I am glad that there will not be the negativity—the descent into violence and so on—seen so often in Northern Ireland. I believe strongly, however, that it is important that other members of the United Kingdom and people from all parts of the United Kingdom—whether London and the south-east, Northern Ireland, Wales, or the north of England—say, with respect, while acknowledging that it is a decision for the Scottish people, “We want you to be part of the UK. We value your membership, and we feel we would be poorer without you in the United Kingdom.”
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Our debates on Scottish issues are often tribal, so I was not surprised by the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) or the degree of fundamentalism he showed in his speech, although I was surprised at his arrogance and his assumption that after an independence referendum the Scottish people would enter some sort of nirvana. That is not quite consistent with our history at any time I can recall.
The way the hon. Gentleman approached the whole issue underlines one of the major problems with this debate: the lack of fact. If we look ahead at what sort of country an independent Scotland might be—and we need to, because that is one of the things that anyone taking the referendum seriously would want to know—we can see what the various sides of the argument are presenting us with. What the Scottish Government are presenting us with at the moment is: “We’ll keep the monarch”, “We’ll keep the pound sterling”—perhaps—“and the Bank of England as our central bank”, and “We’ll remain part of the EU,” although that is still an open question. I was quite taken by what Mr Barroso—in effect, the chief executive of the European Union, who should know a thing or two about these things—said about an independent Scotland having to reapply. Mr Salmond leapt to his feet and said, “No we won’t. I know better.” That is basically the way all this has proceeded.
We are not being presented with facts; as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) said, they are assertions. I would be a wee bit kinder than that: they might be aspirations, but they are more likely the product of politicians who want to remove difficult issues from the agenda before the referendum. We would see a very different Scotland afterwards if it were outside the EU, forced to create its own central bank and introduce a new currency. I mention the currency because the only other similar experience that I am aware of is when the Czech Republic and Slovakia split. I think it was the Czech Prime Minister who said that they had agreed to keep the same currency, but within a matter of weeks that decision was changed and a new currency had to be created. I cannot see a Scotland in the same situation being any different, even if I believed that that was the intention. However, what we know so far—about the monarch, the pound sterling, the Bank of England as the reserve bank and being part of the EU—does not sound very much like independence to me.
Mr Doran
The hon. Gentleman has intervened many times and thereby had more than 10 minutes already. I would rather make my own contribution to the debate.
It is important that we have facts. One area where that is most important is the economy of an independent Scotland. It is quite clear from all their forecasts that the current Scottish Government would rely heavily on North sea oil revenues. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) has already made the point from the Front Bench, but I want to give a bit more detail, because it is extremely important that accurate facts are readily available. The first point to consider about the oil and gas industry is just how volatile these commodities are. Prices can rise or fall very quickly. I am old enough to remember in the 1980s when the oil price went from $32 a barrel to $8 a barrel virtually overnight. We lost more than 50,000 jobs in the north-east of Scotland when that happened. An independent country would have found it difficult to survive that event. Unless we are talking about a prosperous middle eastern country with no resources other than oil, it is very dangerous to rely on oil and gas for the economy.
We have to look at the research. The most accurate and trusted UK commentator on the oil and gas industry is Professor Alec Kemp of Aberdeen university. For decades, he and his colleague Linda Stephen have studied the UK oil and gas industry, and their regular reports are respected and accepted throughout the industry. The most recent report looks at the prospects for activity on the UK continental shelf following the recent oil tax changes. The report is very detailed and considers the prospects for oil and gas production in the next 30 years in the UK sector. In the last two years production has declined, partly because of the tax changes in the 2010 Budget, but also as a result of the large increase in unplanned shutdowns. That has had an almost immediate effect on the amount of revenue coming into the Exchequer. Also, the North sea infrastructure is very old, and there has been a large number of unplanned shutdowns.
The report details scenarios in which the oil price is $70 a barrel, and the gas price 40p a therm. The potential number of fields in production in 2042— 30 years from now—will fall from 300 to about 60. In that same scenario, oil and gas equivalent production would fall from today’s level of about 1.8 million to 584,000 barrels a day. That is at a price of $70 dollars a barrel and 40p a therm. At a price of $90 dollars and 55p, production would fall from 1.8 million barrels of oil equivalent a day to 520,000. Most of the money and energy would go into decommissioning the North sea platforms that were being rendered redundant, and I do not think it appropriate for a new country to build its economy around the destruction of its most productive industry. We need to see many more such facts on the table before anyone can make a serious decision about what is best for our country.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran). The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) talked about how, come independence, the Scots would be able to walk tall. I have been to Perth, and I have not noticed anyone walking with their head bowed of late. I know plenty of Scots who walk tall. Scotland walks tall; it is only little-minded people who do not.
“Scotland and the Union” is the title of our debate today. There would be no Union without Scotland. Scotland and England came together to form the Union under the two Crowns more than 300 years ago, and we have moved on since then. Who would have thought that, 300 years on, we would be having a debate and a referendum on how we might split ourselves up after all this time? The Scots have defended the Union with their lives and with their labour for centuries. We have led battles on the battlefield, and we have led in science and technology. The Scots not only pull their weight; they over-pull their weight. As a nation, we walk tall and we hold our heads high. Scots are known throughout the world for that. There are probably more Scots outside Scotland than in it, and as we get further away from home, we often get more nationalistic, with a small n.
I have great concerns about the way in which Scotland is being governed at the moment. It has a majority Government, but there is no scrutiny of any of the Bills that the Government pass or of any of the work they do. They have a committee system that is very similar to our own Select Committee system. In our system, when a Member joins a Select Committee, they do so not as a member of a party. Their job is to scrutinise the Government or the people who are running the industry of our country. We do not do that with any party bias. In Scotland, however, there is no scrutiny. The Committees are being run with a party bias. Whatever happens, the Scottish National party is right and everyone else is wrong. Any amendments that are tabled to a Bill are automatically shouted down.
The bullying by the Scottish Government that seems to be going on is an absolute disgrace. People are being threatened, and companies are told that if they do not do as they are told, they will not get contracts. That is no way to run a country. It is certainly no way to run an independent country. I have great fears about that, and we should look seriously at how the scrutiny of Government Bills is carried out in Scotland.
It will be no surprise to anyone that I also want to mention shipbuilding. Shipbuilding on the Clyde has sustained Scotland for centuries. When the tobacco trade first started up, the development of shipbuilding on the Clyde created employment and made Glasgow the second biggest city in the empire. That would never have happened if we had not been part of the British empire and of Great Britain. We led then, and I believe that, in many ways, we lead now. The Type 45 destroyer is the best ship of its kind anywhere in the world. It is envied by the Americans, by the Russians and by anyone who has any idea of what a destroyer should look like. It is a cut above everything else.
We would not have those ships without the decision by the British Government to build them. If the last Labour Government had not secured the procurement of those ships, the Clyde would now be closed. I have absolutely no doubt that, under independence, the Clyde would close almost the next day, and that 3,500 jobs would be lost—
John Robertson
Not this side of hell freezing over!
The Scottish Government want to sell thousands of jobs, and there would be no more ships on the Clyde. I am a Glaswegian. I am Scottish, but I am probably a Glaswegian before anything else. I am also British and proud of it. I want people to vote in the referendum. I want us to get through it so that Scotland can get back to where it should be. When we have voted down the proposal for independence, we need to give serious consideration to how the governing is being done in the Scottish Parliament. I believe that the threatening and bullying, and the lack of scrutiny of Bills, needs to be looked at seriously. Those are the most important things.
In the short time I have left, I also want to mention the cost of separation. There would be a cost not only to Scotland but to the United Kingdom. I have tabled a parliamentary question to various Departments to ask how much it would cost simply to re-badge everything from the day of independence. How many millions of pounds would it cost not only the people of Scotland but the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland? How much would every single taxpayer have to pay? And there would be further costs when jobs were lost as the companies that are threatening to move out did so. Just this week, BAE Systems was threatening to do that. Scotland is better together with the United Kingdom, and I have no doubt that we will remain one of the leading countries of the world.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
It is a great privilege to contribute to the debate after so many fine contributions from right hon. and hon. Members. I echo the sentiments of those on both sides of the House who have said that they are intensely proud to be Scottish or to have Scottish ancestry, but also to be British and to be citizens of the United Kingdom. I, too, fervently hold those joint allegiances. I would also say to the Scottish National party that it does not have a monopoly on care, passion and wisdom when it comes to the future of Scotland, and I do not believe its assertions about the land of milk and honey that it plans to create.
Lindsay Roy
No, I am sorry; I want to make progress.
Like most in this Chamber, I am ambitious for Scotland and for the United Kingdom. I agree that, with a strong Scottish Parliament within the UK, we have the best of both worlds. I have always believed that there is a better choice for the future than divorce, secession and separation. I want to illustrate that through an aspect of Scottish life that is dear to our hearts—namely, sporting activity.
As an avid football fan, I have supported the Scottish team for many years, although I do not go back 140 years to the 0-0 draw. I would like to remind the House, however, of the 3-2 victory at Wembley in 1967. Just after England’s famous victory in the World cup, we beat them and, as a result, claimed our share of the Jules Rimet trophy. I have also suffered the trials and tribulations of a 5-1 defeat at Wembley, and vividly remember on the way back home the sign on the back of the bus on the M6 saying, “You couldnae make it 6”!
In football and rugby, we have a strong tradition of Scottish teams representing us on the world stage. Times are tough, and I dearly wish that our football and rugby performances were better at the present time, but we support our teams passionately through thick and thin. However, is it not ironic that many of the players exhibiting such passion for their national team, who live outwith Scotland but give their all for their chosen country, will not be able to vote in the forthcoming referendum. They are good enough to play for their chosen country, but are not allowed to vote on Scotland’s future. That applies to many people who support Scotland vigorously, too.
While in some sports we have full decision-making powers to select our own national teams on the world scene in football and rugby, in others we have Scottish representatives who make selections for UK teams. Nowhere was that more visible than the recent UK-held Olympics, and indeed the Paralympics, where we pooled our human resources and facilities to produce the best UK performance ever, with 55 out of 542 participants from Scotland taking part in 21 out of the 26 Olympic sports.
Did we not do well together and did not the Scots make an outstanding contribution to that success? There were individual golds for Sir Chris Hoy and Andy Murray, and an individual silver to Michael Jamieson— three individual highlights in a glittering array of success stories. Overall, team UK collectively won 65 individual awards at gold, silver and bronze. The sum total of medals for Scotland, however, was not three, but 14, as Scots teamed up with colleagues across the UK to achieve outstanding results, taking on the best that the world could offer—and winning!
What more apposite illustration could we have to sum up Better Together? Without the combined resources across the UK, 11 Scots would not have won these coveted Olympic medals. Scots were integral parts of team UK, and there was a collective passion and team spirit to work together, sharing training and coaching as well as facilities to produce the best Olympic results ever.
Some of our SNP colleagues have jumped on the bandwagon of UK success. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), where I was brought up, proudly stated:
“Britishness is one of our many identities and one that will be forever cherished in an independent Scotland.”
Yet the same hon. Gentleman has been recorded as saying:
“I do not even know what Britishness is”.—[Official Report, 12 November 2008; Vol. 482, c. 307WH.]
Well, we do, and the Scots know of the many benefits that accrue from being British. This has been well illustrated so far in this debate across all aspects of British life. I am confident that on referendum day, the Scots will continue to see that things are best when we pull together and work with our neighbours, so we can spread the risks and share the rewards. I believe that Scots will see, as in our sports development, that we can still have the best of both worlds—teams representing Scotland, but participation in UK teams, too.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) on managing to secure the debate.
The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) often paints a bleak picture of my homeland in this place. It took him nine minutes to get to that point today, but I simply do not recognise what he is talking about when he speaks of a downtrodden nation seeking freedom. As a shadow Defence Minister, let me concentrate on defence and the defence of the nation as a whole.
We are right in saying that Scots are rightly proud of our brave servicemen and women and the work they do across the world to keep us all safe. The British armed forces are the best and bravest in the world, and Scotland and the Scottish people are an integral part of that.
The decision facing all Scots in the 2014 referendum is, in fact, a stark one: to continue to be part of the British Army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force and benefit from that safety and security, or to leave these services and go out on our own. After all we have been through together as a nation, why would we now want to go our separate ways and break away from the British armed forces?
As well as the pride we feel in our armed forces and services, there are huge economic and employment benefits that Scotland’s leaving the UK would put at significant risk. There are 18,000 people employed in Scotland as either service personnel or Ministry of Defence civilian staff, with thousands more employed in the private sector as contractors and partners throughout Scotland.
Mr Brown
I am not giving way.
Scotland’s largest work place is Her Majesty’s naval base on the Clyde, employing 6,500 people, and there is a work force 4,500 strong at the shipyards in Glasgow and Rosyth. Our shipbuilding industry and the jobs Scots have had in these yards for generations rely on the MOD for work. Scotland has a world-class defence industry and it is best protected by Scotland remaining in the UK. A separate Scotland would not be able to take advantage of UK contracts. About 40% of those UK defence contracts are non-competitively tendered within the UK; this means that they could not be extended to an independent Scotland. There would be no incentive for the remaining parts of the UK to outsource defence contracts to Scotland. For example, the Type 26 global combat ship is due to go into construction the year after the referendum, and the MOD has made it absolutely clear—a Defence Minister has said it twice here—that this contract will be open only to UK-based companies. We benefit from an MOD budget of £35 billion a year—the fourth largest in the world. The SNP has stated that an independent Scottish Government would commit to an annual defence budget of around £2.5 billion. This means that if a separate Scotland became part of NATO, it would have one of the lowest defence spends of any NATO country, at exactly the same time as our country would face massive transitional and new set-up costs.
Professor Malcolm Chalmers, research director of the Royal United Services Institute, has said that the size of the Scottish defence procurement budget would be “pretty limited”, and he warns that much of Scotland’s defence industry would migrate southwards.
The defence of our nation is of paramount importance, and it is hard to comprehend why the SNP, a political party predicated on separating Scotland from the UK, cannot answer some of the most basic questions about what defence policy in an independent Scotland would look like. [Interruption.] If there had been enough time and we did not have two votes ahead of us, perhaps SNP Members could have assisted us today by painting a picture of what the military might of a separate Scotland would look like. For the Army, how many regulars would there be, and how many reservists? Keeping in mind the fact that Scotland is surrounded by water on three sides, are we correct in assuming that Scotland would have a navy, and what would its strength be? Could we afford an air force? Would our military be in place to defend our borders, or would we be an expeditionary force?
Mr Brown
I am not giving way, because I am coming to my conclusion before we hear the winding-up speeches.
There is a positive case for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom. No one doubts that our country is capable of being independent, but why should we want to lose all those advantages? At a time of immense and fast-evolving challenges throughout the world, with a plethora of security threats on the horizon, why on earth should we want to devote time and money to dividing our resources north and south of the border? We should be working together, throughout Britain, to remain vigilant against the constant threat of terrorism, combat the growing risk of cyber-crime, and prepare for the long-term security risks posed by climate change. Focusing on the defence of our nation, rather than plunging our country into uncertainty by splitting from the rest of the UK, is in Scotland’s national interest.
Like so many other issues, defence highlights the strength of a Britain that works in co-operation. We are stronger, safer, and better together.