Financial Sustainability (Local Government)

Debate between Angela Smith and John Pugh

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) on calling this timely debate and on introducing it in a constructive fashion. However, I do not share her enthusiasm for elected mayors, so I must demur on that point.

Several people in the room have probably sat on both sides of the political fence that divides local government from central Government, so they will be familiar with the scenario many of us have had visited on us: we listen to a statement about the local government finance settlement and think, “That’s not so bad,” but when we talk to our borough treasurer, we find that the world has more or less fallen in. I am very familiar with that scenario because my first experience of Whitehall involved coming down to Richmond house to see the now Lord Boateng, who was a Minister at the time. I was castigated on behalf of Sefton council because he felt we had quite enough money to deal with our problems, while we felt the money he was giving us fell significantly short of what he should have given us.

That scenario is fairly familiar, and it is part of a very dishonest conversation that has taken place decade after decade between local authorities and central Government. It is a dishonest conversation about local resources, central resources and their effect on services. All Governments say that the funding settlement is fair and generous in the circumstances and that councils surely have sufficient funding to get by. If Ministers need a further defence, they will point to occasional—or perhaps less than occasional—instances of local authority inefficiency or profligacy. They will then point to some local authority—normally one from their own political party—that does things particularly well and set it up as an exemplar for all others to follow.

Local authorities, in turn, talk about savage reductions, service impairment and the new and sometimes unnecessary burdens that have been imposed on them, but not financed, by central Government. Characteristically, they will accuse the Government of deceitful sleights of hand, favouritism and formula rigging. I think Members will acknowledge—particularly those who have sat on both sides of the fence—that those involved put their side of the case in a very one-sided way.

The past few years have been no exception. It helps local authorities that are making their case to their local populations to blame the Government for the totality of their woes, whether those result from demographic factors or unaddressed issues from years gone by. Most local authorities worth their salt big up the cuts, blame all the financial pressures they face on central Government and try as far as possible to ignore their own failings.

Equally, central Government help themselves by confusing the grant regime, changing the names of the grant from year to year—from revenue support grant, to formula grant, to spending power or whatever—and presenting their case in the best possible way. The Minister and I have had many interesting discussions about whether to describe a local authority’s situation in terms of a fall in its spending power or a fall in its grant. I prefer the latter; he prefers the former.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman talks about authorities bigging up the cuts, but, taking into account all the adjustments he has just spoken of, Sheffield will, by 2015-16, have seen a 50% reduction in funding since 2010. That is not bigging up the cuts; it is the absolute fact. Sheffield cannot go on with that level of cuts to its funding base.

[John Pugh]

I have no experience of Sheffield, but I have experience of my own local authority, and at times it rolls up many years’ cuts into one total figure, as if those cuts were imposed in one particular year. That is par for the course. Equally, central Government will find obvious scapegoats and point to the things such as assets and reserves—they are sometimes usable, but sometimes not—as though they can be regularly tapped.

Such things are all part of the toolkit or the argument, and most people are fairly familiar with them. The public tend not to pay a lot of attention to the debate, and they almost split the difference in many cases, because they are not certain who is telling the truth. They do get exercised when council tax goes up and certainly when services they are particularly enamoured of disappear, but, by and large, they are fairly agnostic on this issue, and they do not always know who should be blamed.

However, the game has now got deadly serious. What has been a familiar scenario over many years is now having a more severe effect. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston suggested, the sustainability of local services and, in some cases, local councils appears to be at stake—there is a fair case to be made in that respect. If we cut through what I described as the usual dishonest conversation, there are four absolutely indisputable facts.

First, in terms of deficit reduction, councils have been hit first—that is not particularly helpful, because they have to work within annual budgets and cannot make plans over two or three years—and they have been hit hardest, as has already been said. The second fact is that the reduction in central Government expenditure is considerable, and it may end up being something like £20 billion.

Thirdly, it is also an indisputable fact that the funding reduction for local authorities is proportionally greater in the poor areas and particularly the metropolitan districts. I take that as an unarguable fact, which we can all acknowledge around the room, although we may want to explain it in different ways. That fact is well documented, and it is what the Rowntree research, the Institute for Public Policy research, the National Audit Office and the Audit Commission report “Tough Times” all say. It is an indisputable fact.

Clearly, one element in it was the initial loss of area-based grants. We could argue that that happened because the previous Government were looking after the local authorities that were most of their persuasion. However, the fall in the less affluent areas, if I can put it like that, is in no way compensated for in its totality by city deals or regional growth funds. Those are often talked of as a compensating factor, but they must be looked at in terms of the general decline in regeneration funding in those areas as a whole. Taking the totality of the issues, I would be prepared to—although I will not—argue that case at length. There is nothing to suggest that things are otherwise; the proportionate reduction in poorer areas is greater.

It would be inappropriate for the Minister to respond, as often happens in parliamentary debates, by saying that none the less Birmingham gets so much per head, as opposed to some other area that he wants to nominate. I assume that we all buy into the assumption that grant support for local authorities must be based in some way on need. Therefore we would expect per capita spending in Liverpool, for example, to be greater than per capita spending in Surrey, and so on.

Health and Social Care Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

Debate between Angela Smith and John Pugh

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Pugh]

None is not the correct answer. The issue that Labour Members need to understand is that the NHS, as a result of the Budget that most of them voted for in 2010, needs to find £20 billion, and we cannot do that unless—[Interruption.] If it is a disgrace, it is a disgrace that the Labour party inflicted on us. We cannot do that against a background of complete and utter uncertainty, not knowing who will be running the NHS and having to find those savings. Members can check for themselves, but that is the view of the local people running their hospitals. Regardless of the merits of the legislation, they now want a decision.

[Angela Smith]

Given that the hon. Gentleman voted for the Bill on Second Reading and got that wrong, how can we be confident that he has got it right today?

[John Pugh]

If the hon. Lady checks Hansard, she will find that I did not vote for the Bill on Second Reading––okay?

A third and more consensual reason—I might now withdraw it—is that I can assure the House that, having served on the Bill Committee, it could not find a better or more informed set of individuals who are on the ball. The Opposition drilled down on every clause with laser-like precision. There are some very talented individuals sitting on the Opposition Benches, and there is still that galaxy of informed talent. They might feel, as I do, that it is a little like being sent back to the trenches, but the fact is that if that team cannot win the arguments for either accepting or rejecting these changes in the time allotted, frankly there is no hope for this House. They must approach the matter in the right spirit, although that seems somewhat in doubt. I urge Opposition Members to have confidence in their team, the timetable and the ability of the British public to judge if it all goes horribly wrong, but it will not go horribly wrong simply because of the programme motion.