Planning System: Gypsies and Travellers

Debate between Andy Slaughter and Philip Hollobone

Wednesday 29th January 2020 Westminster Hall

[Mr Hollobone]

I am grateful for that helpful intervention. I am so pleased that the hon. Gentleman has raised the issue of educational attainment in Gypsy and Traveller communities, because it is a national disgrace that so many Gypsy and Traveller children do not get the education that they deserve and are statutorily obliged to receive. That is the fault of local education authorities, but it is also the fault of the Gypsy and Traveller communities themselves, and we need to do far more to address that issue.

Another important thing in the hon. Gentleman’s intervention was the two key words, “mutual respect”. Mutual respect works both ways. Gypsies and Travellers demand respect from the settled community for their needs, but do not seem to respect the settled community when they park up on land illegally or build pitches without planning permission, often terrifying local communities with their presence. Of course, there are arguments on both sides of the debate, but the issue needs to be addressed. We are at the beginning of a five-year Parliament. By the end of the parliamentary Session, there will be no excuse for not dealing holistically with all the issues that Gypsies and Travellers pose for all of us.

It will be helpful to give some figures to identify the scale of the issue. The latest figures that I have are from July 2018; if the Minister has more up-to-date figures, perhaps he can supply them. In July 2018, the number of Traveller caravans in the country was just under 23,000, up something like 30% from July 2008, of which 3,100 were on unauthorised sites. Of those 3,100, just over 2,100 were on land bought by Travellers. We are talking about 3,100 caravans on unauthorised sites, 2,100 of which were on land bought by Travellers and the remainder on land that they do not own.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for pointing out that it is a small minority of Gypsies and Travellers who are on unauthorised encampments. As he said, three quarters are in bricks and mortar, even if they do not wish to be. Does he think that the failure of local authorities to provide sites, whether they are transit or permanent, and the lack of provision of social housing, is a factor in the necessity for Gypsies and Travellers to stop in unauthorised areas or on land without planning consent?

[Mr Hollobone]

There are two issues. We will probably disagree, but I struggle with the idea that local authorities should be obliged to provide such sites. I do not see why the public purse should purchase land for a particular group of people to live on. If Travellers were to purchase land and then apply for planning permission for a Traveller site—a suitable site in the right location—the local authority should give planning permission for that, but personally I do not see why the public purse should subsidise sites specifically for one ethnic group.

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[Mr Hollobone]

Yes, there are two additional sites for Gypsies and Travellers with up to 16 plots that are not occupied. The problem is that more Gypsy and Traveller families are arriving from other areas all the time and are overloading the existing sites. It is simply not fair on the local community in Kettering to have to provide ever more provision for Gypsies and Travellers from across the country. That is why we need the planning system to work effectively, and why we need Gypsies and Travellers to respect the law.

The Government should ensure—I would like the Minister’s response to this—that someone in breach of an enforcement notice cannot apply for retrospective planning permission until that initial breach has been remedied. The Gypsies and Travellers who have moved into the site near Loddington, who have had a temporary and permanent stop notice served on them, should not be allowed to apply for retrospective planning permission until they have restored the field to its original state when they moved in on that Friday afternoon. That would be a real disincentive and would stop Gypsies and Travellers abusing the planning system in that way.

[Andy Slaughter]

Is it the hon. Gentleman’s view that such a change in the law should apply to any planning situation? We hear examples all the time of illegal structures being put up, alterations being made to buildings and even new buildings being built, against which the local authority takes enforcement action. Is he saying that the change should apply in all cases, not just to Gypsies and Travellers?

[Mr Hollobone]

Yes, I would like that to be the case. It seems to me that if someone is intentionally seeking to build an unauthorised development and is subject to a temporary or a permanent stop notice, they should do what that notice says—stop the work and restore the land to its original state. To my constituents, that would seem a sensible way forward.

National Infrastructure Projects (Local Development)

Debate between Andy Slaughter and Philip Hollobone

Thursday 12th February 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Slaughter]

Again, my right hon. Friend puts it more eloquently than I possibly could.

There are different views on high-rise living. The previous Mayor was a fan of it and I have an open mind on the issue. There are some fantastic high-rise buildings in London and other cities. A lot of people would prefer to live nearer the ground. There has been some rethinking of the 1960s and ’70s architecture, and we have done some of that redevelopment in Hammersmith ourselves. Certain types of residents, particularly families and young children, prefer houses with gardens.

That is the obscenity of the Earl’s Court development, where 750 good quality low-rise councils flats—rented, leasehold and, now, some freehold properties—are to be demolished. A couple of thousand long-term residents, many of them elderly people who have lived in those homes for 50 years, are being pushed out and the place is going through a period of up to 20 years’ development, simply so that a developer can make money building high-rise flats on the site, but not, frankly, high-rise flats that any normal person, on a normal income, would ever be able to afford.

Let me just finish what I was saying about the Scrubs. Two or three things need to be clarified. First, the Scrubs needs to be removed from the development area. Perhaps, under a future Mayor, we can look at the whole ambit of the development area and try to disaggregate Park Royal from Old Oak. We need a tsar, whether it is Lord Adonis or whoever—somebody who has both the passion and the understanding to take forward complex schemes.

Of course, I want HS2 to succeed. I am delighted that, as a consequence of HS2 coming to my constituency, I will also get Crossrail there, and as a consequence of that I will get Overground stations. I know that I am pointing out the negatives. That is the purpose of this debate. There is not much point my talking about all the good things that are happening: they speak for themselves. HS2 is controversial because of its cost. It will be controversial in this location for the people I have referenced who are worried either about their lives being disrupted or about not getting sufficient compensation. I will fight hard for them and I am sure that the other west London MPs will do so as well.

I do support the project. It is essential nationally and will produce regeneration and unlock this site—previously impossible because of the poor transport links—and will make that transport interchange one of the biggest in the UK. It will also generate jobs and the ability to have new homes in the area. However, why should we be told, “Well, there you are; that’s your lot. You now put up with whatever we decide that we will put on that site. And we will put on that site something which is unsustainable, which alienates the existing local community and drives it out by pushing up land values and prices to a level where people on ordinary incomes can’t afford them, and which pushes out local business”?

It is not beyond the wit of Government at central, local or regional level to regenerate an area this size in London in a way that is beneficial to Londoners and achieves a profit for developers, but not an excess profit, and achieves the strategic transport links that we all want to see, but not at the expense of ordinary residents of west London, who will not just not reap the benefits of this project, but will reap its disbenefits. The project will make people’s lives miserable while the construction continues; it will be difficult to sustain; it will ruin their local environment; and it will possibly weaken their opportunity to have decent housing and decent jobs. That is the opposite of what regeneration should do.

I think probably all Governments have got out of the habit of intervening in and managing projects like this. That does not mean that they should micro-manage or that the detail should not be left to the private sector, local authorities and others. However, with the creation of the MDC, we are seeing a construct designed to exclude exactly those people who should be in the driving seat: the local residents and residents’ associations. They were all consulted. There are some excellent residents’ associations in this area. There are now some excellent co-ordinating groups. For example, the London Tenants Federation and the Grand Union Alliance have pulled together many local residents’ associations, including Island Triangle Residents’ Association, College Park Residents’ Association, and associations representing Old Oak, Wells House road, and the Wellesley estate.

I have worked with all those groups extensively over the years, either in my current incarnation or previously as the MP for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush. They are sensible people who have detailed knowledge of the local topography and are very well able to represent the thousands of people who are going to be directly affected. Yes, they were consulted, but their views have been ignored. That is the problem. Will the Government follow through on their own rhetoric about neighbourhood planning, localism and ensuring that people who have a community interest in the area, but also a pecuniary interest, can continue to have the quiet enjoyments of their home and to live and thrive in the area? That is what is at risk under the current proposals. At the very least we need to reconfigure the area of the MDC and we need a new process. We need a new board structure; we need to make it more legitimate and more democratic; and we need to involve residents more and listen to them. We need a neighbourhood planning role in that way. If that is done, I do not see the problem.

The other logistical problems of co-ordination, which I have talked about, are resolvable with good will. This does not have to be party political; it does not even have to be that difficult a problem to solve. Ulterior motives and ideology dictate that any large development now going on in central London and high-value areas of London has to be of this uniform nature: “How can you sweat the asset?” “How can you extract the maximum amount for whichever development company it is?”, whether it is the Qataris or other developers in the end; I do not know.

That is not the world I want to live in, and that is not what my constituents want from this development. How terrible that this fantastic opportunity is now something that people are dreading, because of the disruption it will cause to their lives and the fundamental changes for the worse that they think it will make to the area. This should be a cause for celebration and an opportunity to deliver the homes and the jobs, and the environment, that Londoners need and deserve. That is not what is happening at the moment, and that is why I have asked for this debate today.

I make no apology for going on at some length, because there is a lot to say. I believe that lessons should be learned from this development, which is, as I said, only the second MDC. London boroughs and MPs should study what is happening in Old Oak and learn the lessons there. The Government should learn those lessons too and think again about ratifying what is effectively a folie de grandeur of the Mayor.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

The 78 minutes seem to have slipped by, as we have all been engrossed in the details of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency.

West Bank (Area C)

Debate between Andy Slaughter and Philip Hollobone

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham). I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) on securing this debate. This is a hugely complex issue. All of us who have visited Israel or the Palestinian Authority will know what a small geographical area of land we are talking about. It is important to get these complex issues into some sense of proportion. We are talking about Area C, in which 150,000 Palestinians live. There are 1.4 million Palestinians living in Israel and 2.5 million Palestinians living in Areas A and B. It would be wrong if this Chamber today gave the world the impression that we are talking about most of the Palestinian population, because we are not.

The west bank has always been under occupation. In 1948, it was annexed by Jordan, which, as far as I can tell, did not do much with it. The Gaza strip was annexed by Egypt, and then the situation was even worse. To imply that it is just Israel that has occupied this benighted land would be quite inaccurate.

[Mr Slaughter]

The hon. Gentleman is showing uncharacteristic false logic. The reason for designating Area A is because it contains the main Palestinian towns. It would be a bit like saying that as long as we excluded London, Manchester and Birmingham, we could allow someone else to occupy all the rural areas of England. This is the Palestinians’ land, and they are entitled to all of it.

[Mr Hollobone]

One of the big tragedies of the Palestinian nation was that it did not accept the United Nations partition plan in 1948. A whole series of wrong decisions have been made by the Arab people since that time. The Israelis are not going to go away. After the holocaust in Europe, they deserve a homeland. As David Ben-Gurion said, we will have to arrive at a peaceful settlement with the Arab people who live in the Holy Land. We are all still in pursuit of that peace. Some of the Palestinians live in terrible situations. I visited them myself in the Gaza strip, and on the west bank. That is all the more reason to arrive at a peace settlement with Israel, so that both peoples can live in harmony with each other. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), I am not in the blame game. I recognise that this is a hugely complicated situation, but we must get a sense of proportion if we are to arrive at sensible and lasting peace for both the Israeli and Palestinian people.