Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Andrew Western and Sally Jameson

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Western]

Q What is your view on its proportionality as a direct response to what has been a £35 billion challenge for the Department since covid? Given the increase in prevalence of both fraud and error—particularly fraud, which is estimate to have cost upwards of £7 billion—do you think that is a material consideration when assessing proportionality?

Ellen Lefley: When I speak about proportionality, the degree of loss is relevant, but there is no question but that the economic wellbeing of the country is a legitimate aim. On whether measures are proportionate to achieving that aim, we must consider not only whether there is any reasonable suspicion, but the degree of external oversight. The Bill includes that consideration, and there are various ways in which some of the powers are subject to independent review.

We have some suggestions as to how those independent review mechanisms can be a stronger safeguard and therefore make the measures more proportionate. For example, the independent review mechanisms seem to have the ability to access information but no power to demand it. That raises a query as to transparency and the full ability of the independent reviewer in different circumstances to meet their objectives. Also, when an independent reviewer lays their report before Parliament with recommendations and those recommendations are not going to be adopted, it might be helpful for there to be an obligation on the Department to provide reasons why not. That would be a more transparent way of ensuring that the oversight measure is as effective as intended.

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q To follow on from the Minister, clearly there is a lot of nervousness from you about looking into people’s finances to detect fraud and error. From your perspective, what would be the alternative? The country cannot afford to lose another £35 billion, so we need to find a way to ensure that does not happen. Given the level of nervousness that you have shown, what would you suggest that we do instead?

Ellen Lefley: On the £35 billion figure, I think the benefits fraud and error figure was around £10 billion, and I think £7 billion can be shown to be fraud. I am sorry if I have got that wrong.

[Andrew Western]

Q That was since the pandemic. The overall figure is £35 billion, and last year it was £9.7 billion.

Ellen Lefley: I am grateful. It is a difficult one. For example, we could have almost zero crime in this country if everyone’s house had 24/7 surveillance installed. There will always be a way of decreasing privacy to increase state surveillance and therefore reduce unwanted behaviour, but the balance needs to be struck. Justice’s view is that when the state is getting new powers to investigate people’s private affairs, the balance is struck by having that reasonable suspicion threshold, which requires reasonable grounds for believing that a crime has been committed. That ensures that the powers given to the state in any primary legislation are not open to abuse or arbitrariness. Of course, the laws in the statute book must be written narrowly so that they protect rights on the face of it, rather than being written broadly and relying on the self-restraint of future Administrations to exercise them proportionately.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Western and Sally Jameson

Monday 16th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

An astonishing £35 billion has been lost to benefit fraud and errors since the pandemic. Will the Minister outline the plans and the timeline for recouping that money?

[Andrew Western]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the enormous cost to the Department—upwards of £35 billion—of fraud since the pandemic. She will be pleased to know that the fraud, error and debt Bill is due to come to the House early in the new year. This Government are serious about tackling fraud; it is just a shame that we inherited the mess we did.