Pub Companies

Debate between Andrew Turner and Toby Perkins

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

Let me respond to the hon. Gentleman’s first point before he makes a second one. Using his logic, we could eventually have only 15 pubs left and he would say that was a great success because only 15 have closed this week. As the overall stock reduces there have obviously been fewer closures. Nevertheless, there are now 2,500 fewer pubs than in 2010.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Toby Perkins]

I will give way, but let me make a little progress first. I myself am an enthusiastic intervener and I want to give opportunities to Members to intervene, but I know that this debate is considerably over-subscribed, so I must try to strike a balance.

An opportunity for fairness now exists in the industry, and I pay tribute to all those who kept believing and making the case for the historic opportunity that we are considering today. The Sunday Mirror has been a loyal friend to Britain’s publicans with its invaluable “Support Your Pubs” campaign. I also place on record my thanks to Simon Clarke of the Independent Pub Confederation, Dave Mountford and the GMB, Steve Corbett of Fair Pint, and CAMRA for the work they have done to dispel the myths propagated by some in the industry.

I will refer in due course to the work of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, but I first want to acknowledge the excellent leadership on this issue from the Committee’s former Chair, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), and the current Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), who is sadly not present in the debate, have made a massive contribution to this issue, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has steadfastly warned about the problems caused by a compulsory beer tie. As well has having wonderful judgment, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) have also played a significant role.

There are currently around 50,000 pubs in Britain and around 28,000 are pubco pubs.

[Toby Perkins]

My hon. Friend understandably feels incredibly passionate about the experiences of people in his constituency and the impact that this issue has had on real people’s lives and his community. That is why we are having this debate and so much research has gone into it, and why we are now in a more positive position than a couple of months ago. He is right to raise that point. The evidence suggesting that how the industry was operating was wrong is unanswerable.

There are 28,000 pubco pubs that operate on a tied arrangement, and approximately another 10,000 are owned by pubcos and breweries on a different basis. They are the overwhelming majority of the industry. Of course, many things have placed stress on the industry. In recent months we have had debates about the level of taxation, but the increasing cost of living, wage stagnation, the effects of the recession and the continued lack of growth in our economy, and the competition for the leisure pound, have all had an impact on the industry.

[Mr Andrew Turner]

May I commend the Opposition on bringing forward these proposals and commend the Government on doing so as well? Will the shadow Minister please inform the House what the cost implications will be to the Government of allowing pubs to transfer from a tied to a tie-free licence?

[Toby Perkins]

That is a valuable question and one of the things we will be investigating in more detail during the consultation. I think, however, that the costs will be minimal in comparison with the massive loss to the Government from revenue going out of the industry as all these pubs close. If we recognise—as many of us do—that the way in which pubcos have constituted their business model is having a dramatically damaging effect on the industry, we will see that the cost of those closures will dwarf any cost to the Government from such a transfer.