Israel and Palestine

Debate between Andrew Percy and Alyn Smith

Monday 11th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)]

It is good to see you in your place, Mr McCabe. It is a privilege to sum up for the SNP in this debate. I pay tribute to some really excellent contributions from colleagues across the House, but I have to say that I do so with a sense of deep sadness. All of us feel this personally. We are all of us connected to this patch of land. Israel and Palestine combined are smaller than the Strathclyde Regional Council area was, and yet the geopolitical implications and the links that the area has to communities worldwide and across all our islands are significant.

I feel it personally, too. I grew up in Saudi Arabia and, with my family, spent much of the ’80s in Riyadh. My folks have just retired, back from Kuwait. In the European Parliament, I was a member of the Committee on Foreign Affairs and served in the middle east working group. I have been back and forth to the region—Gaza, the west bank and Israel—many times, and I count myself a friend of all innocents. I count myself a friend of Israel and Palestine. I have never seen it as bad as I see it now; I have never felt more bleak and frankly more fearful for the future, not just in the region but in our communities, given the connections that we have to it.

The SNP’s position, on this as on all matters, is that international law has to be applied in all cases and in all circumstances. Our position is principled neutrality. We believe in a two-state solution, much as that is an increasingly forlorn hope, especially right now. We support all innocents. We condemn all violence. Having been back and forth to the region many times, I am well aware that each society is complex and each society is complicated, and I want to see the innocent protected in all societies.

We share the pain of everyone, but what we have seen too much of over the past few months is people minimising others’ pain and legitimising ongoing violence on the basis of pain inculcated into their own communities over many decades. We heard powerful testimony about how dreadful the 7 October attacks were. Of course they were—they absolutely were—but history did not start on 7 October, and to minimise anyone’s pain is not to help a just solution.

Some facts, because it is worth agreeing on some facts: Israel has a right to exist; it has a right to exist within its borders; it has a right to defend itself, proportionately; Hamas are a terrible organisation, a terrorist organisation; the 7 October attacks were barbarism that we unreservedly condemn. But the response to those attacks is redrawing the map of the middle east before our very eyes, and yet again the Palestinian people have been comprehensively let down by the international community.

I fear that what is happening now is going to fuel extremism. It is going to fuel antisemitism and Islamophobia —it is possible to be equally concerned about the rise of both, in all our communities. I fear that the events in the middle east right now could create real problems within our own societies, across the whole of Europe and indeed the world.

In our Committees, we have seen a huge interest from the public, as seen by the response to the petitions: “Remain neutral in Israel-Palestine conflict and withdraw support for Israel”, “Seek a ceasefire and to end Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip” and “Urge the Israel Government to allow fuel, electricity and food into Gaza”. The SNP supports all those petitions. We believe that they would go towards a just peace.

We are very proud of the role that we played in the King’s Speech debate in forcing the House to a vote on an amendment on the need for a ceasefire, because we believe we need a ceasefire. I appreciate that others disagree, but surely peace has to be built on a cessation of hostilities. I take all the points about Hamas. I am a gay man; Hamas throw people like me off high buildings. I carry no torch for anyone within this conflict, but surely peace has to be based on a ceasefire and a dialogue.

We lost that vote on the King’s Speech, which I regret—I pay tribute to all colleagues who supported it—but we will not give up. We have heard a number of references to the 2009 precedent that in supporting UN Security Council resolution 1860 on ending Operation Cast Lead, the UK was influential, with the European Union, in changing the US position. It was influential on changing the reality on the ground. It was influential in creating peace.

We need that again. We need it again because the Israeli Government are going in entirely the wrong direction. The Israeli Government are acting with what seems to be impunity. They are funnelling cash into new settlements right now. We see that happening, and I fear that the long-term consequences will be utterly unsustainable and will undermine any possibility of a just peace.

[Andrew Percy]

The hon. Gentleman is making a relatively even-handed speech and I would not quite say that I disagree, but as he knows, the consequence of previous ceasefires was the continued building up of the terror network in Gaza and the continued aiming of thousands of rockets, each one of them aimed at civilians. The consequence was the much greater murder of innocents that we saw on 7 October. I understand that the hon. Gentleman is genuine in his desire for a ceasefire, but what is his policy for how we rid Hamas—who we all hate equally, I hope—from the governance of the Gaza strip?

[Alyn Smith]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important intervention. I agree that we need to rid the region of Hamas for the benefit of the Palestinians in Gaza as well as the wider region, but I do not see that there is a military answer to that, and I do not see the military campaign as being that successful in its eradication, frankly. What we are seeing is disproportionate attacks on civilians. Particularly in northern Gaza but increasingly in the south, we are seeing any prospect of a viable two-state solution or a viable community for people to go back to being ruined. That is targeting, perhaps indirectly, the civilians in the region. That fuels the conditions in which Hamas prosper and makes it easier for Hamas to continue. So we disagree on that: I think a ceasefire has to happen in order to allow talks—however difficult, however painful—to progress, because Hamas are not going away.

We need to go further than a ceasefire. I will make a couple of points to the Minister, who knows I have much respect for him. We need, surely, to focus more on accountability in the long term. We are seeing individuals—non-state actors or otherwise—acting with what seems to be a lack of accountability. We surely need to support the International Criminal Court’s investigation and its call for evidence. The UK is in a position to be particularly influential within that. We are seeing war crimes, and war crimes need to be properly investigated by proper authorities. I do not think that politicians ourselves should shoot from the hip on such matters, but we need a proper investigation by the proper authorities, and that needs to be supported by the UK, surely.

We need to see a greater focus on the proxy violence by settlers in the west bank and Jerusalem, because we are seeing the map of the middle east being redrawn before our eyes. The prospect of a two-state solution is being utterly undermined by the policies of the Israeli Government right now, today. That has to stop, and there must be accountability for it. The map is being redrawn, and that surely has to result in consequences in law. We also—this is another point for the Minister—need to stop aiding Israel in its military action, because to my mind there is sufficient and genuine concern about matériel supplied being misused against civilians, however indirectly or accidentally. Surely there is sufficient concern that in order to help a peace, the UK should stop supplying logistical and surveillance support to the state of Israel and its actions, because they are disproportionate.

I do believe that a just peace is possible. I do believe that the eastern Mediterranean could be paradise, but it has been blighted by the legacy of empire and blighted by corruption, religious politics, political religion and all sorts of other issues. What we are seeing right now is going to have great consequence for our communities into the future, and for the region. We should support peace. We should support a ceasefire. If the Minister is looking to work on that, I will back him all the way.