Chagos Islands

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Doughty]

Let me first thank my hon. Friend for his service for our country and its national security—and, indeed, thank all new Members who have served in our armed forces. I completely agree with his comments: we are indeed protecting our national security and putting matters on a secure footing

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Alexander Downer, a former Australian Foreign Minister, a former high commissioner to this country, a former United Nations special adviser on Cyprus and a good friend of this country, says that the surrender of the Chagos Islands is

“symptomatic of a country that no longer has geopolitical perspective.”

What is the Minister’s response to Mr Downer’s remarks, and does he agree with his comment that the last Labour Government were prepared to capitulate on the two Cypriot sovereign base areas, Dhekelia and Akrotiri? Who would have thought it? Is not the Chagos surrender just same old Labour—strong on post-colonial guilt and weak on safety, security and stability?

[Stephen Doughty]

I do not recognise those comments in the slightest, not least because we have repeatedly made clear our commitment to our overseas territories: to the Falklands, to Gibraltar, and to the sovereign base areas in Cyprus, which, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, are protected under the 1960 treaty. I have made statements to that effect. We are clear about our support for those territories and their importance to us. This is not about handing something over; it is about Diego Garcia being on a secure footing, with our military base and our presence secure for the future.

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

2nd reading
Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I put on the record my previous engagements with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, on many excellent and informative trips that contributed to our relationships across the Commonwealth, and my past engagement with the International Committee of the Red Cross.

I am delighted to see the Bill back in the House; I hope that there will be wholehearted unity today to ensure that it makes it to Royal Assent. I think this is its fourth iteration. The last time it was debated here was as a private Member’s Bill in the last Session, but sadly it ran out of time before the Dissolution of Parliament for the general election. I pay tribute to the former Member for Basingstoke for her tireless work in introducing that Bill and pushing it through, and to many hon. Members, some of whom I see here today, for their past work with the CPA and the ICRC.

It is critical that both the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross be given their correct status in UK legislation to conduct their work and deliver their objectives while operating in the UK. This will help to guarantee that the CPA remains headquartered in the UK and will ensure that the UK can guarantee the ICRC that the confidential information that it shares as a matter of course with the UK Government is secure and protected.

The UK is deeply committed to the Commonwealth and believes that the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, which the Foreign Secretary is attending in Samoa, will be an important opportunity to mobilise action on shared interests, including upholding shared Commonwealth values. Those values are embodied by the CPA’s important work to strengthen inclusive and accountable democracy across the Commonwealth. I think back to my own many engagements with the CPA in which I have seen that work at first hand, both when delegations have visited and when I have been part of delegations. The UK values its partnership with the CPA and is proud to support the work of the CPA and its regional branch CPA UK. That includes developing benchmarks and indicators of parliamentary democracy and addressing modern slavery in supply chains and issues such as gender-based violence with Parliaments and parliamentarians across the Commonwealth.

The ICRC is an essential partner in achieving the UK’s global humanitarian objectives. It has a unique mandate from states to uphold the Geneva conventions and works globally to promote international humanitarian law. Its impartiality, neutrality and independence allow it to engage and negotiate with all parties to a conflict and to provide protection and humanitarian assistance to vulnerable populations, often in contexts in which other agencies are unable to operate. I have witnessed its important work, in opposition and in my past career in the humanitarian sector.

Clauses 1 and 2 will therefore provide for both organisations to be treated in a manner comparable to an international organisation, with the associated privileges and immunities. Treatment as an international organisation will allow the CPA to continue to operate fully across the Commonwealth and international fora. It will allow the organisation to participate fully in areas in which it is currently restricted, including signing up to joint international statements and communiqués. That is vital to ensure that the CPA can continue its work to promote democracy and good governance across the Commonwealth. The CPA is currently registered with the Charity Commission for England and Wales and is not an international intergovernmental organisation; it therefore has its own unique constitutional arrangements that reflect its specific international mandate.

Clause 2 is critical to enable the ICRC to operate in the UK in accordance with its international mandate, maintaining its strict adherence to the principles of neutrality, impartiality and independence and its working methods of confidentiality. The ICRC is not an inter-governmental organisation either; it has its own unique and historical international humanitarian mandate to protect the lives and dignity of victims of armed conflict and other situations of violence and to provide them with assistance.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Nobody doubts the good work of the CPA or the ICRC—we have all seen it as parliamentarians—but does the Minister understand that many of us are a little wary about conferring privileges and immunities by Order in Council after the Bill is passed, since this House is not, in general, in the habit of granting privileges and immunities without scrutiny?

[Stephen Doughty]

The right hon. Gentleman can be assured that these are the appropriate measures. We have determined this way in line with previous discussions on the previous iteration of the Bill. This is the best way to achieve the aims of the Bill in a timely fashion, so that the provisions are put in place for the CPA and the ICRC. I am very happy to write to him further on this matter. The Bill will face scrutiny in Committee, where we will be able to discuss these matters in greater detail.

The provisions in clauses 1 and 2 will ensure that the CPA and the ICRC can be accorded comparable treatment to an international organisation, even when the definition of international organisation in existing legislation is limited to intergovernmental organisations. For the CPA, this treatment will be limited to its core international organs, such as the secretariat. It is not intended that any privileges, immunities or other facilities be extended to any of the national or sub-national branches, so this is a limited provision.

The arrangements for both organisations will detail the day-to-day management of the privileges and immunities granted on a functional needs basis, and other facilities. They will make it clear that there will be no immunity for the CPA’s secretary-general or representatives of the ICRC in respect of damage caused by, for example, a motor vehicle operated or owned by either. The way that the limitations and requirements have been set out in this regard is important.

Clause 2(1)(e) lays out an important confidentiality provision, to protect certain information provided in confidence to His Majesty’s Government by the ICRC from being disclosed in UK civil court proceedings or under any statutory provision or rule of law. As my noble Friend Baroness Chapman stated on Second Reading in the other place, this provision reflects the ICRC’s standard working method of confidentiality, which is designed to protect its staff and operations in active conflict zones. I am sure that Members will understand that publicly disclosing information that the ICRC obtains from confidential dialogue with conflict parties is likely to put at risk its ability to have confidential dialogue with conflict parties, its humanitarian access and, indeed, the security of its staff, and might result in the ICRC restricting the information it shares with the UK.

However, in relation to the concerns that Members have raised in the past, the Bill does not provide an absolute blanket exemption for disclosure requirements for all ICRC communications. Important limitations have been incorporated, such as the exclusion of criminal cases. The Government continue to be committed to respecting the confidentiality of ICRC information as a matter of policy. Past practice has demonstrated the importance of doing so. The Bill is an opportunity to end any uncertainty about the Government’s position and to put this practice on a statutory footing.

I want to turn briefly to clause 3, which is equivalent to section 8 of the International Organisations Act 1968, which allows the Secretary of State to certify questions of fact relating to the status of, or the privileges and immunities conferred on, the organisations. In the context of court proceedings, if a question arises of whether a person is entitled to any privilege or immunity by virtue of an Order in Council made under clauses 1 or 2, such a certification is to be treated as conclusive evidence of those facts for the purposes of proceedings.

Clause 4 details the scope and extent of the Orders in Council that confer privileges and immunities on both organisations under clauses 1 and 2 respectively—this relates to the intervention from the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). An Order in Council may make different provisions for different cases or persons, and it may also contain consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provisions. Clause 4 also provides the enabling power for two important aspects: first, the Order in Council may specify circumstances in which privileges and immunities do not apply, either because of an exception or because they have been waived by the organisation; and secondly, the Order in Council may specify that fiscal reliefs and exemptions are subject to arrangements or conditions imposed by the Secretary of State.

Clause 4 provides that any Order in Council made for these purposes will be subject to the draft affirmative parliamentary procedure, which means that they will require the approval of both Houses before they may have effect. The list of privileges and immunities that may be conferred on both organisations is set out in the schedule to the Bill and has been informed by the International Organisations Act.

Briefly, clause 5 explains that the term “ICRC” means the International Committee of the Red Cross, as given under clause 2(1)(a), and it ensures that the definition of “statutory provision” allows for the treatment of the CPA and the ICRC as international organisations in respect of all relevant primary and secondary legislation, including devolved legislation in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland whenever made.

In conclusion, and to reiterate what was said in the other place, the Bill will give the CPA and the ICRC the correct status in UK legislation to allow both organisations to continue their international operations without unnecessary restriction. The Government have a strong commitment to the Commonwealth. It continues to support our global humanitarian objectives through our work with the ICRC, and the Bill is a true reflection of that. I hope that it will enjoy the wholehearted support of the House as it proceeds swiftly into law. I commend it to the House.

St Helena: UK Immigration

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Monday 21st October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I have repeatedly made it clear, not least in the Falklands and Gibraltar, that we stand by their sovereignty and self-determination and will defend them. Indeed, that goes for the British overseas territories family, and it is a commitment that I will be making in person when the leaders join me at the Joint Ministerial Council in a few weeks’ time.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Since no migrants have arrived in BIOT since 2022, and given that this agreement lapses after 18 months, what is the problem that the Minister is trying to solve? And given that Rwanda was apparently considered immoral and this is not, is he not simply offering an insult to Kigali?

[Stephen Doughty]

Absolutely not. This is prudent contingency planning. Unfortunately, we inherited a situation from the previous Government where many holes had been left in these very arrangements and where there were significant problems. We are now taking steps to pragmatically address that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Monday 25th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

The board of inquiry is quite clear about the attribution of blame, and the Welsh Guards were absolutely exonerated, and that is the Government’s position. My position is always for transparency, and certainly that has been at the forefront of my mind when I have been looking at these documents.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I, too, was at the event that my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) attended at the weekend. I was there on behalf of my constituent Colin Silva. Many of those who did not come back were from the brave Welsh Guards. I have also visited Fitzroy and seen the location for myself. I was able to assure the people of the Falkland Islands of the united support from this House for their defence and security. May I press the Minister on the timing? Are we talking in terms of weeks, months or years, because time is moving on and we need these answers quickly.

[Dr Murrison]

I will not be drawn on precise times, but it will not be years.

LGBT Veterans Independent Review

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Wednesday 13th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his question. Lord Etherton’s terms of reference were deliberately drawn in the way that they were to focus specifically on defence, but my right hon. Friend has made a reasonable point, and I am sure colleagues across Government will hear what he has said. I am more than happy to have a discussion about this specific case with the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) and with my right hon. Friend, if they wish to do so.

It is important that if we are considering the implications for wider public service, we learn from what has gone before and from this review. I am confident that colleagues right across Government will be looking at what we have proposed doing in response to Lord Etherton’s report today and drawing their own conclusions. Perhaps they can learn from what has gone on and assure themselves that they, in turn, do not have dark corners that need to be given the light that Lord Etherton’s report has certainly given to defence.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I draw attention to my declarations in the Register of Member’s Financial Interests, including those relating to my recent Army Reserve service. I was very happy to be able to do that as an openly gay man alongside many other LGBT+ service personnel who serve us bravely around the world and in this country. That opportunity was not available to the many generations who went before who were equally courageous and brave in the service of our country in so many contexts, but who faced horrific discrimination.

One of those discriminated against was one of my constituents in Cardiff South and Penarth. She was discharged in a totally humiliating way from the RAF in the 1970s for being a lesbian, but in her service record, the reason was recorded as “services no longer required.” I have raised her case with the MOD over many years, but was told that it could not be changed because it was correctly administered. In his statement, the Minister referred to amendments to veterans’ service history, which recommendations 26 and 27 of the report also refer to. Will he confirm that where individuals were discharged for reasons other than their sexuality, but their sexuality was clearly the reason, that will be considered in restitution for them and their service?

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman—I remember him raising his constituent’s case when we debated this matter in the summer. The straight answer to his question is “yes”, and I encourage his constituent to go to the front door that is now open to ensure her case is properly examined and, if she wants, references to what happened to her are removed or expunged.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Thursday 6th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

Given the nature of the conditions that the Global Fund principally deals with, the hon. Gentleman is right to raise Gavi. The UK is the biggest contributor to Gavi for a very good reason—vaccination works. In dealing with those three key killers, it is clearly vital that we focus on prevention. That means not just vaccination, and Gavi does not simply vaccinate people, but dealing with a range of public health issues that are necessary in order to prevent infection happening from the beginning. This Government fully support both Gavi and the Global Fund.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Committee: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Doughty]

I wholeheartedly agree, and who can forget the Warrington bombing, for example, and the many other tragic events that affected young and old and people from all walks of life, in mainland UK as well?

How extraordinary it is that we would even contemplate putting any of the progress that has been made at risk. It was particularly important to hear what the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield and the right hon. Member for Broxtowe said. This goes beyond party politics and wider issues that we will have disagreements on in this House. This is about stability, peace and the constitutional settlement, and, ultimately, respect for the will of the people on the island of Ireland about their future. It is about understanding where that lies. It is not about games that some might choose to play for other purposes around this whole Brexit process.

That also draws into stark relief the role the EU has played in being a force around peace processes and stability, and not just in the UK. I do not claim that the EU was responsible for all the progress in Northern Ireland. I do not claim anything of that nature, but we have seen the role it has played in preventing a further outbreak of violence in Cyprus and in encouraging countries and different communities to come together in the Balkans. This was substantially lost from the debate we had around the referendum. Our coming together in Europe around shared values, peace and stability has helped to bring people together.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I am listening very carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Of course none of us here—heaven forbid—would use this situation to do impure things like politics, but does he agree that there are those who would seek to manipulate the current situation for other goals? I am thinking in particular of the French intention to take business from the City of London and of some—I emphasise some—in Dublin who perhaps see an advantage in the current situation, which has led to a lot of discomfort on the island of Ireland.

[Stephen Doughty]

We are not here to talk about France’s intentions as regards the City of London; we are here to talk about the constitutional settlement in these islands, and I cannot understand why the Government would not want to accept new clause 70, given that it clearly sets out an agreement that they as a Government are committed to. I certainly will proudly go through the Lobby, or happily act as a Teller for the hon. Member for North Down later to make sure that that vote goes forward.

I shall now move on to other amendments, relating to clause 10 and schedule 2, tabled in my name and those of Members of other parties, regarding Wales and Scotland, the wider devolution context and the constitutional settlement we have. Clause 10 gives effect to schedule 2 and sets out the power of the devolved authorities to correct deficiencies in domestic devolved legislation that arise from withdrawal from the EU and to remedy potential breaches. Those infamous Henry VIII powers are included in those provisions. Using those powers, devolved Ministers would be able to modify retained EU law to correct those deficiencies and to act in various ways to deal with the circumstances of leaving. The crucial point, however, is that the same powers are given concurrently to UK Ministers in areas where devolved competence is absolutely clear, and those Ministers are free from the scrutiny of the devolved legislatures.

UK Ministers have been given the exclusive power to amend retained direct EU legislation—that which comes from EU regulations rather than from directives—which covers otherwise devolved competences, as we discussed at great length the other day. There is therefore a significant inequality in the powers that have been given to Ministers. I am delighted that those on the Labour Front Bench and others are opposed to that, as are Welsh Labour and many others from across the parties. Our amendments seek to address that issue. The Welsh Government have argued:

“Direct EU legislation (such as EU regulations) can only be amended by a Minister of the Crown, and would fall to be scrutinised by Parliament even if the subject was one that was devolved to the Assembly.”

When we discussed the amendments the other day, I was disappointed by the response from the Minister. Despite the assurances that we had had from the Secretary of State for Scotland when he appeared before the Scottish Affairs Committee, and despite other commitments that had been made about respecting reasonable and constructive amendments tabled by the devolved Governments, there was no willingness to take on board any of the amendments. We had no commitments on them, which was extremely disappointing.

The amendments are not about wrecking the Brexit Bill or about stopping the process. We all have different views on where we should go, but the amendments are about ensuring that we continue to have a stable and effective constitutional settlement and do not suddenly start grabbing back powers or giving UK Ministers new powers to interfere in areas that have long since been devolved. Let us not forget that it is almost 20 years since the advent of the first devolution Acts.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Murrison and Stephen Doughty

Monday 17th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend takes a close interest in the National Memorial Arboretum and the Armed Forces Memorial, so he knows well that they were established primarily to commemorate the fallen from 1 January 1948. He will also know that I am the Prime Minister’s special representative for the centenary commemoration of the great war. In that capacity, I am well aware of a number of projects that will involve the National Memorial Arboretum. As my hon. Friend takes such a close interest in both the arboretum and the memorial, I am sure that he will be intimately involved with them.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have not yet had the pleasure of visiting the National Memorial Arboretum, although I hope to in the near future.

[Stephen Doughty]

I will.

I will be attending the memorials for Armed Forces day on 22 June in Penarth in my constituency. What assessment has the Minister made of the scale and support of memorials on Armed Forces day this year? I assume and hope that they are growing.

[Dr Murrison]

Memorials are certainly a focus for our remembrance and always central to any commemoration of the fallen. I look forward to Armed Forces day this year. I am sure that, as ever, it will be a great success.