Badger Cull

Debate between Andrew Miller and Roger Williams

Thursday 25th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Miller]

I know that the hon. Gentleman is fascinated with firearms, but shooting badgers will not work either. I do not say that a cull will have no effect; of course it will have an effect. Killing any of the species that carry TB—not just badgers but including cattle—will have an effect, but it will not solve the problem. Indeed, killing every badger will not eradicate bovine TB. I hope that the step proposed by the hon. Gentleman will not prove necessary in years to come, given the work that is being done on the biology, because I believe we can move closer to eradication by investing the huge sums that we are discussing in research programmes aimed at establishing a vaccination regime.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I have huge respect for the hon. Gentleman, who chairs the Science and Technology Committee. Evidence given to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in the previous Parliament suggested that this is a question not of money but of time, because to develop the vaccine we need generations of badgers and cattle.

[Andrew Miller]

There is a chicken and egg argument and a serious challenge facing us. My concern is that the House is not taking the issue of zoonotic conditions seriously enough. We must take a much more mature view on the inevitable consequences of the greater mobility of people and of animals in the food chain while they are alive; otherwise, we shall be dealing with not only bovine TB but other conditions. I hope that when Ministers press the Treasury on the comprehensive spending view they will pass on the message that, without sensible investment, we will have this debate time and again and that, even if all badgers were culled, farmers would still be disadvantaged by this dreadful disease.

It is easy to criticise one side or the other of the argument, but even DEFRA’s nine-point summary states:

“If culling is undertaken, it should be in addition to, not instead of, existing bTB control measures in cattle, which should be maintained and strengthened.”

I have yet to hear a single word from a Minister on the strengthening of the regime.

Badgers and Bovine TB

Debate between Andrew Miller and Roger Williams

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). He is absolutely right that bovine TB is a terrible disease. I, too, have seen some appalling cases. To put the matter into perspective, the last figures I saw showed that 92% of farms are free of bovine TB, so it does not impact on every farm throughout the country. It comes and goes in waves.

My late father-in-law was a small farmer in Cornwall, and he was proud of the fact that there was never TB on his farm, despite it having a badger sett. He claimed that his purchasing policy when he bought in animals kept it free, but even I am not convinced that that was the case. I believe that it was the character of the surrounding area, and the fact that a wide range of farmers had high standards.

The Prime Minister told me in the Liaison Committee a few months ago that he agrees that he should spend more time with his scientific advisers, and I suggest that every Minister should do just that, but I also ask that everyone has basic lessons in how science works because the argument is not black and white. Anyone who presents it as such is wrong. The hon. Gentleman said that vaccination is not that simple. He is absolutely correct. Nothing in the debate is absolutely simple, and I will illustrate the folly of the Minister’s position by using the argument that it is not that simple.

Lord Krebs, a highly respected Cross Bencher in the other place, has reported, as is well known. His view is that the process that the Minister recommends has a serious flaw, and it would be foolish to ignore that view. The question is which of the extreme views is right. I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman was arguing—my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) was certainly not—that TB in badgers should be ignored, and he was not looking for a 100% cull. We must find a way forward. The question is whether the Minister’s free shooting policy can provide that way forward. My contention, based on the Krebs report, is that it cannot.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I apologise for being late, and I declare an interest in that I am responsible for a herd of bovine animals in Wales. That is not the Minister’s responsibility because we are discussing an England-only issue, but it is a herd that has been affected by TB.

The hon. Gentleman referred to Professor Krebs’s contribution, with which I agree. We must take a view on it. Does he agree that there is a balancing view from David King, a former chief scientific adviser to the Government, who carried out an overarching review of all the science, and came to a different conclusion from that of Professor Krebs?

[Andrew Miller]

Indeed. That is my point. The argument that the Government are relying on—that the free shooting policy will work—does not have universal support in the scientific community because, as an hon. Member who intervened on my hon. Friend said, it is not possible to measure that realistically. I am glad that colleagues from Wales have intervened, because that is hugely important. The evidence suggests that, to have any effect, a cull would have to take place over a minimum area—the suggested area is 150 sq km—and be conducted for four years. It is estimated that in the first three years, perturbation would be serious. The problem is, unless the policy is nationwide, how to manage the Welsh and Scottish borders, although I suspect that the latter is less relevant. It would be incredibly difficult to do something effective on the Welsh border. Unless we issue badgers with passports and do not allow them to cross the border, there will be a problem.