House of Commons Administration and Savings Programme

Andrew Miller Excerpts

Thursday 8th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I can tell him that I have had particular praise from the wife of one hon. Friend, who thanked me profusely for having relieved her of the duty of piling those up in the loft. So all in all, it is a wise move but, as I say, for those who wish to continue to receive bound volumes of Hansard, we have made provision for them to be purchased.

The next point that I would like to touch on is the provision of ICT. The aim here is to move to a more cloud-based system. This will allow Members to access all the services they need from virtually any equipment they choose to use. It moves the security aspects—one of the most important points—from their individual pieces of hardware on to the cloud system. So cloud e-mail and office services which are designed to provide flexible access from anywhere and virtually any device should be a truly enabling feature for Members.

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

As a Member who is trialling the use of iPads in Select Committee—which, by the way, is proving very effective—I can report that we cannot put information on the cloud at present because the servers for Apple products are in the United States and are therefore covered by the Patriot Act. That presents some interesting problems. Has the Committee given any thought to how we can solve them?

[John Thurso]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. The Committee is not yet engaged on the Patriot Act. What we are engaged in is ensuring that these questions are asked of Parliamentary ICT. That is the important point. PICT is currently running what is called the cloud-readiness project to look at all these issues. If we want to arrive at the point where all the benefits that I have sought to outline are available to us, ensuring that the system is secure and that storage and transmission facilities are available are clearly prerequisites for any provider of cloud services. If a provider cannot offer that, it will not get the custom.

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[John Thurso]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those comments. On his point about catering “subsidy”, the actual sale prices in most of our outlets are comparable to either, in the case of the dining rooms, private sector outlets or, in the case of the cafes, a normal work canteen. The prime cost is that of food, which in the trade we used to call the kitchen cost, and that is comparable to similar commercial operations, so the gross profit, or kitchen profit, is comparable. The problem is that we occupy the facilities for only part of the week, so for the remainder of the week they cost money because they are serviced and there are staff. Therefore, the gross profit is insufficient to cover the total fixed cost, and on that basis we have a subsidy. I think that it is an appropriate subsidy, particularly if we are looking at this debate. Equally, his point that we should be reasonably expected to reduce that subsidy by the way we operate in order to give the best value is absolutely correct.

[Andrew Miller]

Furthermore, the fixed costs are higher here because of the nature of the building.

[John Thurso]

I am happy to agree with the hon. Gentleman.

I am conscious that I have occupied the crease for far longer than I had intended and do not wish to upset you any further, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I will crack on. My last point regarding the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow is that it essentially asks for more time. I say to him, with the greatest respect, that I have spent two years circulating e-mails, writing reports and seeking to consult Members, some of whom have engaged and some have not—he has been a great engager. We have had a Westminster Hall debate on the matter and today we are debating it in the Chamber on an amendable motion. It does not get any better than that, as far as parliamentary time is concerned, so I suggest that now is the time to make the decision, whatever the House chooses.

Two other amendments have been tabled. I have already referred to that tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden, who chairs the Administration Committee. I believe that other members of my Committee are content to accept it if the House wishes. The other amendment was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) and relates to an extremely important point about the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology. I know he is hoping to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I will not go into detail. Suffice it to say, on the basis of the briefing he gave me, I have talked at length with officials and am certain that we will be able to secure the necessary discussions between him, his board and the relevant people to ensure that those points are properly taken on board. I hope that the result will be the correct accommodation.

Members have an historic opportunity to take their destiny in their own hands in considering what services we want and how they should be funded. I am delighted to see so many Members in the Chamber and delighted that there are so many amendments, even though I ask the House to reject at least one of them. Let us have a debate, make a decision and settle the matter. I end by thanking the members of the Finance and Services Committee and the officials who have helped them, both at Management Board level and below, to ensure that the work we have done has been thorough and solid, which has enabled me to lay before the House a report and plans that are well considered, well structured, thoroughly thought through and that, I think, offer a solid way forward. I commend them to the House.

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[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I am happy to support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), but I also congratulate the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) on a thoughtful report and the work of his Committee. He could shave a few pence off the House of Commons print budget by shortening the name of his constituency, but that is not the only inconsistency that I want to bring to his attention. He spoke with some expertise on the issue of generating income. He has now heard the contribution from the hon. Member for Windsor on the role of POST, and I hope to point out the inconsistency of the position that has been adopted in the report in respect of that budget head.

I am the chairman of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, which is the oldest all-party group. It was formed in 1939 and its first report was on the role of brown bread in the war effort. I therefore declare an interest. Some of my predecessors had a cross-party discussion with Baroness Thatcher when she was Prime Minister, and from that the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology was formed. It was originally an external body funded through a charitable organisation, with the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee appointing the trustees. Lord Morris, who was one of the trustees, sadly died recently, and his contribution to that body was exemplary, along with that of others on a cross-party basis.

That charitable body, which has received significant funds over the years from the Wellcome Trust, the Gatsby Charitable Foundation and others, put all the original money into the pot that created POST and still supports some of its activities. Incidentally, I have a responsibility in that regard, because the PSC will appoint the successor to Alf Morris. The project that we conducted through POST in Africa was entirely funded through that process. The point has been made that this House has influence well beyond the shores of the United Kingdom, and when I was in Uganda with the Select Committee, I was delighted to meet a fellow who had been on one of the POST fellowships through that scheme.

The scheme has leverage, but to lose senior posts will do a disservice to that, and that is the point that I want the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross to consider. There are 32 letters in that constituency name—it is even longer than Ellesmere Port and Neston. Every senior post in POST levers in a number of research fellows, and that is a contribution to the House in kind from the wider research community that should not be underestimated.

We have some wonderful people on the Library staff, starting with our chief librarian, John Pullinger. He has just had the honour of becoming president-elect of the Royal Statistical Society, following in the footsteps of the late Harold Wilson. The team John leads have an extremely difficult job, and having the extra leverage from the work done by POST makes a significant difference.

The PSC recently asked Lord Oxburgh to conduct a review of what is happening with science in Parliament. It has just been published and we are working on it. Lord Oxburgh identified the importance of the role of POST in helping to inform Parliament about scientific matters, and I am happy to make that report available to the hon. Gentleman and his Committee.

The hon. Member for Windsor referred to the external views that have been expressed. A letter was sent yesterday to Mr Speaker in his role as Chairman of the House of Commons Commission which is signed by some extraordinarily eminent people, including the director of the Science Museum Group; the managing director of Sense about Science; Lord Krebs, who is my opposite number in the Lords; and Harry Kroto, a Nobel laureate. They all signed a letter pleading with Parliament to think again about how it carries out this work. I urge the Speaker to place a copy of that letter in the Library because it informs this debate in an important way.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making a very rational argument for POST and I am listening to it carefully. Is there not perhaps a more symbolic argument to be made at this juncture of our country’s development and given the need for science and technology? We could learn from the fact that the Government exempted science and technology from their cuts. It would be hugely symbolic if we were to cut POST more than other areas—and it would just be wrong.

[Andrew Miller]

I could happily have a debate with the hon. Gentleman about whether flat cash is a cut or not, but in the spirit of working together on a collegiate basis on this matter, I am happy to agree with the point he makes.

All parties in this House regard the science base of the nation as critical to our success in the future. It therefore behoves us to have a better understanding of science. If we do not find better ways of engaging with the science, engineering and maths community, we will be doing ourselves a massive disservice. There are some fantastic schemes. The Royal Society pairing scheme got a good airing on the radio last week. A number of projects are run by a wide range of all-party groups to help to inform parliamentarians. For example, the next meeting of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, on 27 November at 3 pm, will bring experts into the House to address the issue of ash dieback. Members should put it in their diaries, because that problem will be much wider spread than it is now.

There are hugely important challenges that none of us, whatever our backgrounds, are properly equipped to deal with. Even if one was, in a previous life, working in a STEM background, inevitably one falls behind the times when one spends any time in here. I urge the House to take the matter seriously. I invite colleagues to support the amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Windsor, and adopt what is a very important report.

[Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)]

The two Chairs have covered the main points and, with the limit on time, I thought I might touch on some aspects of amendment (b)—not to oppose it, but to provide a tiny warning.

The package coming forward is a general public sector savings package that is in line with the target. The difference this time is that the report, and the thinking behind it, are being discussed in the Chamber. It has also been put together under a new attitude, which is to seek to provide better and more efficient services at less cost to meet the target. As has been mentioned, the officials putting the package together have worked very closely with staff and unions. In fact, many of the ideas for change have been derived from staff undertaking the service. That has enabled staff redeployment within the House of Commons service, rather than redundancies. Although hon. Members may not be aware of it, many services are already contracted out. Many services will come up for renewal, and, in the present atmosphere, they may well bring savings to themselves. In the event of franchising out, staff could of course move to the new provider with TUPE protection, or move within Chamber services themselves by redeployment.

The possibility of market testing has been extensively researched. The team undertaking it have had a free hand to assemble a business development plan. Outside private sector support and advice has been utilised. Market research to provide benchmark information has been undertaken, and that has given the Commission a forward-looking financial information system that it will be able to use to gauge whether it is worth market testing. Obviously, there has to be an in-house bid and the research will give such a bid a competitive edge.

While I understand the thinking behind amendment (b), I suggest caution. First, it seeks to tie the Commission and reduce its flexibility to choose the time of testing, if indeed that appears to be the choice to go for. Secondly, it may well delay savings. Some of the services projections indicate that the private sector could contribute to much lower costs in the latter half of a contract. That means that if tendering was chosen in some cases, the sooner this is undertaken the sooner we will get savings. Thirdly, from my own experience, outside advice on costs or savings always overestimates costs and if the service is tendered and, crucially, if the private sector bid, they have a benchmark that they know they can come in under. Finally, any outside bidder will know from the business improvement plans the bid level they must beat to win if we follow the amendment. I therefore hope there is some caution before we adopt amendment (b). Much credit must be given to the Administration Committee for looking at business improvement plans, efficiency savings and better use of our facilities. The House has already had a debate on this a few weeks ago.

I am concerned about amendment (c), tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). He appears to have missed the opportunity, but is now asking us for a second time to present this before the House. Most of the areas in which he calls for commercialisation already happen in some way or other, although to a lesser degree, and therefore with less financial advantage to the House, but with no reduction of facilities to hon. Members. I hope he feels able to not press his amendment. The Administration Committee is suggesting careful extensions of our underused facilities to the UK public. Obviously, that would need to be done in a careful way, as indeed it is currently, so as not—if I may use the well-worn phrase—to bring the House into disrepute. I hope he realises that what he is proposing will result in further delay. It will be unsettling to staff. It will reduce the savings, because they would not be brought in earlier in the financial year, and that would mean further savings from other areas to meet the target.

The report comes as a package. That means that if there is any cherry-picking of specific items that reduce savings, they will need to be compensated by savings in other areas. I hope that when my hon. Friend stands up to speak, he thinks about that carefully before he puts his proposal. I hope that the House will approve the motion without amendment, so as to give the Commission a chance to consider points raised while retaining the flexibility to act appropriately on various aspects of the programme to the benefit of the House budgets and of Members’ services and staff.

[Andrew Miller]

Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that the amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) has a positive cost benefit, not a negative one, in terms of available staff to the House?

[Sir Paul Beresford]

The hon. Gentleman has just beaten me to POST. The Commission will look at what was said. The Chair of the Finance and Services Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, has already made it clear that he will look closely at that with the Committee, so I will not comment on the details of that particular amendment. I am concerned about amendment (b); amendment (c) is destructive.

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[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) on occupying the crease in so elegant a fashion, and on presenting this detailed report in such a way that those listening could understand and appreciate it. I should also like to thank whoever is responsible for ensuring that the Chamber is freezing as we are debating cost savings today. I would have brought my fingerless gloves with me had I known it was going to be this cold, but at least no one can accuse us of not practising what we preach.

I welcome this opportunity for the House to debate the House of Commons administration financial plan. We are broadly supportive of the direction that it sets out. Alongside the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, many other Members are involved in the detailed work of the House Committees, including that of the Finance and Services Committee, the Administration Committee and other behind-the-scenes Committees. Right hon. and hon. Members do a great job, unsung, behind the scenes. When I first came into the House, I had no idea how it ran itself, and it has taken me quite a few years to understand the complex behind-the-scenes nature of how it all works.

[Andrew Miller]

Are you clear about it now?

[Ms Eagle]

No; even though I am now on the Commission, I am not at all clear how things work and how things pop up.

It is important that we have managed to have a debate on the Floor of the House about these estimates, and I hope to see such debates repeated in future. I hope that that will give some reassurance to the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) that we will have many more opportunities to return to these issues. He will be able to track them as we go through the savings programme.

In the context of any savings programme, however, we must bear in mind the function of this House. The House is here to hold the Government to account, to scrutinise legislation and to challenge Ministers. The work of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee during the inquiry into phone hacking was one of many examples of the Select Committee structure enabling Members to hold public and private bodies to account in a way that does our democracy proud. That is an integral part of the scrutiny function of the House, as the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) said. It is essential that that function is not enfeebled by the savings programme.

Therefore, we on the Opposition Benches fully support the principle, which the Committee endorsed, that any cost savings must not adversely affect the ability of the House and its Members to carry out their parliamentary functions. That is a fundamental criterion for the work as it progresses, and we must always bear it in mind as we keep an eye on the programme’s progress. This building is not here to sell guided tours or afternoon tea. It is a working Parliament and we are elected to represent and serve our constituents, and to fulfil our constitutional duties. The House has to be resourced sufficiently to allow Members to discharge their duties to the electorate and to hold the Government to account.

We recognise the need for the House to examine cost savings. Given the cuts that are being imposed across the public service in the rest of the country, it would be folly to do otherwise. Many of the suggestions put forward by the House Committees and authorities are sensible, and, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said, there has been widespread consultation, not least with the staff of the House and with the trade unions that represent them. I believe that a reasonable approach has been adopted to the challenges in making these savings, which is why the Commission has endorsed them.

I recognise that some of the changes to Hansard and the provision of bound volumes concerned some Members, but the print to web programme offers significant savings without impacting on Members’ duties or on their ability to do their job. Better use of IT services offers savings and will enable Members to work more effectively and productively, especially when they are not in their Westminster base. That will, however, depend on a good, secure and reliable delivery of digital services, be it by web or by cloud—the British cloud, as it was described earlier. I receive either intermittent or no wi-fi signal in my office, so I know from personal experience that there is still some way to go before that vision is achieved, and I look forward very much to the proper introduction of the print to web programme. There is some way to go yet.

The House is right to examine options to charge for services—indeed, we have charged for some services for many years—but we should proceed cautiously. I echo the emotional worry expressed by the hon. Member for Harlow in that regard. The Commission has therefore approached this matter very carefully. We have had detailed discussions about how it should be approached. We should not commercialise this place, but that does not mean that we should not open it up and make a reasonable charge to cover the cost of the access that is being given, so long as we do not put in jeopardy the principle that all our constituents should be able to interact with us in Parliament without charge. That view has been expressed strongly on both sides of the House today. I believe that we have got the balance about right. I certainly hope that the hon. Gentleman and other Members will keep a close eye on how things go, and that they will give the Commission their views as the programme proceeds.

The House should not look for savings by cutting wages of low-paid staff or by outsourcing their employment. Too often, when budgets are constrained, the brunt of cost saving is borne by low-paid staff who see their terms and conditions worsened, their employment contracted out, or their wages frozen or cut. I therefore have considerable sympathy with the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and others on both sides of the House who pointed out the debt that we owe to our staff in the Palace of Westminster, and the high standard that we have come to expect of the work that they do. Nor should we forget that the duty of those in this House is to hold the Government to account and to represent our constituents. That is why it is important to ensure that savings do not impact on the ability of Members to fulfil our duties.

One of the big changes introduced during the previous Parliament was to open up this place and expand our educational visits programme in order to improve the experience for visitors. That increased the cost of running the building, but when I was first elected to Parliament 20 years ago, the opportunities for schools to visit and learn about how Parliament worked were much more restricted. At a time when we need to work even harder to engage young people in the political process, spending money to enable school groups to visit Parliament is totally justified. It is a necessary investment in our core democratic purpose. The House must ensure that Members can discharge their duties, but it must also ensure that the public can fully and properly engage with their Parliament.

Given that the House of Commons is making significant savings, it is worrying that the cost savings are not being shared equally between the two Houses. The Committee’s report highlights a number of issues that need to be resolved by discussion with the other place. This democratically elected Chamber is bearing the brunt of the cost savings. It is neither a desirable nor a sustainable position when the unelected House is not putting its shoulder so firmly to the wheel.

It is time that we examined the costs associated with running two different but parallel administrative services for the Commons and the Lords. It is an absurdity that this duplication has persisted for so long, and we should be aiming to end it. I am certain that, with ingenuity and good will, that could be done without impacting on the privileges of either Chamber. It would surely deliver considerable efficiencies. This is urgent work, and we should be proceeding with it as soon as possible. The existence of two separate administration services for both Houses is just one area where modernisation is both overdue and could offer huge efficiency savings.

In the 20 years in which I have been a Member, much has changed and much has improved. I would like to pay tribute to Mr Speaker’s work in driving the modernisation of how we work, but we need to recognise that much can be done to improve the scrutiny of legislation, to strengthen the work of the Select Committee system and to ensure that the Government are held properly to account.

We broadly support the recommendations of the Finance and Services Committee. We welcome the chance to debate and scrutinise the report in the Chamber. The House of Commons is right to be making savings at a time when cuts are being made across the public services, but it is important that Members’ capacity to fulfil their duty is not impeded. We are elected to do a job, and it is important that the House is resourced to enable Members to do so.