Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 12th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffiths]

As my hon. Friend will know, in April 2017, retailers saw a 6% reduction before inflation in their business rates, with £3.6 billion of transitional relief. We are doing what we can to support businesses. The Retail Sector Council will be looking at a range of issues, including business rates. The Government are determined to ensure that the taxation system is up to date and fit for purpose.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

One of the areas on the high street that is particularly struggling is that of our important pubs. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s view on the extent to which pub-owning businesses and tenants enjoy confidence in the Pubs Code Adjudicator—and if they do not, what steps the Government are taking to put that right.

[Andrew Griffiths]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, I take a particular interest in the health of public houses up and down the country. He will know that this Government set up the Pubs Code Adjudicator to ensure that landlords and tenants across the country got a fair deal. It is still early days, but the adjudicator is getting on and making decisions. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Richard Harrington), is in close discussions with the adjudicator to ensure that he is getting the job done.

Enterprise Bill [Lords]

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffiths]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he does to support pubs, not just in his constituency but in this Chamber, in standing up for British pubs and British brewing. He is absolutely right: this is a competitive business. Pubs are not just competing with each other for trade—for business—but with the likes of Starbucks. It is therefore absolutely essential that we allow them to invest in their estates. I will come on to that point later.

I have to admit that I was one of those who opposed the market-rent-only legislation when it first came in during the previous Parliament, because I was concerned about unintended consequences. We all want our to pubs to thrive, our pub estate to grow, and our pubs to be successful and pay a good living to the publicans who run them, but we must also be aware of unintended consequences. I warned of repeating the mistakes we made with the beer orders. I know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you are not old enough to remember the beer orders coming before this House, but that mistake, with the Government intervening in the marketplace and sticking their oar in, led to the break-up of the successful breweries and, indeed, to the pubcos that we have today. We have to be very careful.

The debate on this subject has been contentious; there has been a great deal of heat, and sometimes it has become somewhat unpleasant. I congratulate the Minister on the work that she has done in finding a way through this. She has not only shown an immense interest in the subject in talking to both sides and properly understanding the implications of what we do as a Government, but has not been shy in standing up to both sides. We know that there is a famous tradition of female Conservative MPs handbagging people around the table in order to get the best deal possible, and that is what the Minister has done to find a way forward. We must not forget that pubs are not charities—they are businesses that employ 1 million people across our country and raise £21 billion for the Exchequer. We must therefore make sure that we have the right conditions to allow them to grow as businesses, and that is what the Minister is able to do.

My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) mentioned investment. I am pleased that the Minister’s proposals allow publicans to opt out of—to waive their right to—an MRO for the purpose of significant investment. It is absolutely right that our pubs need to be the best offering possible. They need to have good facilities, nice loos, and good heating. They need to be pleasant environments if people are going to go there and spend their money. He is absolutely right that they are competing with the likes of Starbucks. If we want people to pump money into our pubs, we have to give them security in making that investment. Why would the likes of Punch in my constituency invest a couple of hundred thousand pounds, perhaps even £300,000, in a pub to renovate it if it was likely to lose control of it in just 12 months’ time? The simple answer is that it would not. The Minister’s decision to allow the opt-out from—the waiving of the right to—an MRO will give some comfort to the industry and allow such important investment to go ahead.

I am concerned about red tape. The adjudicator, when introduced, could potentially have to deal with some 14,000 pub tenants. There is therefore a real risk that the adjudicator could be swamped with complaints. I hope that the Minister will be well aware of that when she brings forward the secondary legislation on how this thing will actually work. I am also concerned about the amount of red tape when somebody signs up for a pub tenancy.

[Toby Perkins]

Given how busy publicans are, they do not want to spend their time at the adjudicator. They want to be serving punters and getting on with running their business. What does the hon. Gentleman think it says about the way the industry is currently working if the setting up of an adjudicator creates the likelihood that it will be swamped because all those publicans are so unhappy?

[Andrew Griffiths]

I do not think creating an adjudicator does that at all. Very few tenants come forward with complaints under the current voluntary scheme. But as in any other sphere, when a new way to complain is advertised, people will undoubtedly come forward. Some of those complaints will be valid, but many will not be. We need to make sure that we do not ruin a perfectly workable system by allowing it to be flooded with the wrong kind of complaints.

The requirement first set out by the Government would have meant that a pubco had to provide more than 80 pieces of information to somebody who wanted to sign up for a tenancy, and those would all have had to be checked off and a receipt accepted. That compares with about 10 pieces of information that have to be provided to somebody signing a normal commercial lease. I agree that we should make sure that tenants walk into the arrangement with their eyes open and with all the information, a business plan, advice from a financial adviser and a clear understanding of what that business is currently doing and what their earning potential is, but we should not make it impossible for a pubco to sign up a willing tenant who understands the business and understands what they are taking on.

On time scales, the suggestion is that the measure will come in at the end of May. Time is ticking and I hope the Minister will be attuned to the fact that this is a huge thing for tenants and pubcos to understand. Will she consider some interim measures to make sure that the measure can be introduced in a manageable way, and that the information does not swamp both tenants and pubcos?

Finally, I wholeheartedly support Sunday trading, as it would be good for the pub trade. The Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers and the British Beer and Pub Association say that encouraging people to come into our town centres on a Sunday to do shopping would also be good for our pubs. I entirely support that, but I remind the House of a letter that I received from Peter Hardingham, the manager of the Octagon shopping centre in Burton. Urging me to lobby for the important devolution to councils of Sunday trading regulation, he wrote: “Such a change in the law is critical to allow bricks and mortar retailers to compete with online retailers and to satisfy the customer demand that exists.” That is absolutely right.

The legislation, devolving the power to local authorities, giving our local councillors control over what is best for their high streets, will allow our shops to compete with online retailers. We can order from the internet on our phone and get something delivered on a Sunday afternoon. How can our shops compete with those retailers? The measure is a great idea and I hope the House will get behind it. I thank the Minister for her work on pubs. Please listen to our concerns, and I will be in the Lobby supporting Sunday trading.

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[Toby Perkins]

I absolutely agree. We had long and very passionate debates about that during the last Parliament, particularly in the run-up to the Olympics, when the Government made what they said at the time was a short-term change to the Sunday trading legislation.

I have an interest in this matter in that my son works at Morrisons and is often there on a Sunday. One thing that will happen—I have had very few representations in favour of this—is that the supermarkets, finding that the others are opening, will have to start to open. That will not add any extra business, but it will extend or spread out the shopping week. It will mean that people have to work very late on Sundays, and people wanting to work during the week will find there are fewer shifts available during the week. No more business will be created; it will just be spread over a longer period. The period after 4 o’clock on a Sunday is vital to the convenience store sector, which is under incredible pressure.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman and I understand his concerns, but why does he think that the workers in Sainsbury’s and Tesco deserve to have their Sundays protected as special, but not the workers in Sainsbury’s Local or Tesco Express? They work for the same business, but one set of workers gets protection and the other does not.

[Toby Perkins]

The hon. Gentleman asks a legitimate question. All of those questions were debated at the time of the original legislation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn) said, a compromise was reached. The existing compromise is vital for the convenience store sector. The number employed in large Tesco, Morrisons or Sainsbury’s stores far outweighs the number employed in those other stores. I will not say anything more about that matter, but the exchange between the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and the Secretary of State entirely exposes the fact that many people do not entirely understand what they are being asked to vote for today.

I come to this subject as someone who ran his own small business for five and half years before entering this place and who spent the previous 20 years working in a range of medium-sized businesses—I was once a human being. I have also had the opportunity, as a shadow Business Minister, to debate many of the issues.

I was struck by what the hon. Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway) said about the impact of late payments on small businesses in particular. Late payments beget late payments: when someone receives payments late from their customers, they end up being late payers to their suppliers, and so it goes on. She is absolutely right to say that action needs to be taken. She may want to research the amendments that we tabled to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill during the last Parliament. Those were far more powerful proposals, and I may encourage my Front-Bench colleagues to dust them off and have another look at them. Those serious legislative proposals would have outlawed late payment and removed the incentive for late payment.

When discussing late payments, we must understand why they exist. Payments are made late because businesses like to keep the money in their account for the purposes of cash flow. There will be an opportunity for a small business to go off to the commissioner and report their customer, but in the course of that process the big company may well have paid the small business. That will not get the small business paid any quicker; it just puts in place a bureaucratic process. The idea of a small business commissioner in itself is not a bad one—it may well deal with some of the disputes between suppliers—but the idea that it is the solution to late payments is entirely wrong. It will make very little difference to whether or not companies are paid late.

The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) spoke about major companies that are setting out with purchasing terms of 90 or 180 days. They are paying after 90 days and they are not even late. The Government may say that, if companies do not pay within 60 days, they cannot be classified as a prompt payer under the prompt payment code, but these are relatively small measures. They do not provide legislative protection against major firms in the way that the amendment I proposed in the last Parliament would have done. I urge the Government and all members of the Bill Committee to look at how we can strengthen the proposals, because this is a matter of real importance.

It always strikes me that the Secretary of State believes all regulation to be a bad thing. Recently, I met the UK Weighing Federation, which had a reception in Parliament. It said that the lack of policing of the regulations in the weighing industry leaves the UK market open to cheap foreign imports that are not compliant and that undercut good-quality British manufacturing.

I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) that we do not want unnecessary burdens, but we do want a regulatory regime that protects not only the consumer, but British businesses that are doing things in the right way. A similar case was made by NAPIT recently in respect of the electrical competent persons register and the lack of policing of building regulations.

Part 7 includes measures on the pubs code. I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State say today that the Government have listened and learned from the discussions in another place, and that the four triggers that were originally put in place when the legislation passed in that famous defeat of the Government in the last Parliament will be retained in the pubs code. It is incredibly important that the code continues to operate in that way.

It is important to remind Members who were not here in the last Parliament why we decided to legislate for the pubs industry in a unique way; we have not used that for any other industry. There was a simple unfairness in the relationship between the major pub companies, with all the power they had, and the small individuals who owned a single pub, who often put their life savings into it, only to find that the information that they had going into the relationship was very misleading. As a result, those people often found that they were not in a position to get the deal that they thought they were signing up to. It was incredibly important that we came up with an arrangement where they had the opportunity, at certain trigger points, to say, “I don’t think this relationship is working for me. I’d like to take my chances on the open market and buy beers from wherever I can.”

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

It is a great pleasure to speak on the amendments proposed by the noble Lords.

On 16 July, we debated the Second Reading of this Bill. It was interesting, in preparing for this debate, to re-read the contributions that were made then and those that have been made by Labour Members in both Houses during its subsequent stages. Though modesty would usually prevent me from quoting extensively from the contribution that I made, it would be strange not to reflect on how widely our critique of the Bill has been adopted by the Government. We said that it had the potential to make a real difference to small businesses but that the steps that it originally proposed were a collection of faint nods in the right direction of key issues that had emerged under this Government. We said that far more robust action would be needed if this Bill was to deliver on the steps small businesses required and to take action on things like abuses of the labour market and their impact on workers in every constituency in the land. On the subject of pubs, we said that a successful small business Bill—a Labour small business Bill—would have introduced a code with a market rent only option, which the Bill now indeed contains. It would be churlish not to recognise that the Government have ultimately acted in good faith on pub company legislation.

I should place it on the record that this is the last piece of legislation that the Minister will be bringing through in this Parliament. As we fast approach the general election, who knows when will be the next time a Liberal Democrat Minister will have the opportunity to bring through a piece of legislation? She has done a good job in reflecting the wishes of the House and has acted in good faith on pub company regulation.

Their lordships’ amendments broadly achieve the objective of striking the devilishly difficult balance between proper protection for pub tenants while not imposing an overly rigid straitjacket on the industry with the potential to discourage future investment. They are positive steps forward that have faithfully built on the spirit of the historic clause 42 proposed by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). We recognise that some aspects of the proposals will sensibly need to be included in the pubs code through secondary legislation.

There remains the thorny issue of the right of the tenant to offer a substantial investment in their public house in exchange for giving up the right to use the next rent review period as a trigger to request an MRO assessment. The letter dated 16 March from the Minister, Baroness Neville-Rolfe, to the noble Lords Mendelsohn and Stevenson details the Government’s intentions with regard to new clause 43 and specifies that it must not be used to abuse the waiver. However, this will still leave those who fought this cause for many years with considerable unease that this creates the potential for too broad an exemption for too small an investment.

We entirely agree with the Government that encouraging future investment in the stock of public houses is a crucial element in the future success of the industry, but, over four months since the original victory for clause 42, that still leaves a huge unanswered question about the scale of investment that constitutes “substantial”. I think that my party’s record on this issue means that campaigners will have confidence that the statutory code that addresses it under a future Labour Government will be consistent with the approach—

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned his party’s position on investment. What scale of investment does he believe would constitute “substantial”?

[Toby Perkins]

That is an excellent question. The whole reason this issue is being placed in secondary legislation is that we recognise that there is a very difficult balance to strike. The formula needs to be dependent on the relationship of the investment to the value of the pub. For some pubs, a £30,000 investment might be substantial. For a town centre or city centre pub, a £200,000 investment might not be so substantial. There needs to be some sort of relationship between the rateable value of a pub, the amount that it turns over, and the amount of investment.

The hon. Gentleman is echoing my point, which is that this has been left very open. A great deal of work would need to be done. I assure the House that under a future Labour Government the principles laid out by Baroness Neville-Rolfe are exactly how we would see this. I anticipate that the same would be true of a Liberal Democrat-influenced Administration, although it would be good to hear the Minister clarify that. It would also be good to hear from the Conservative party whether its manifesto will follow the Bill’s principles, or whether it will take a different approach. The industry and campaigners have the right to expect that.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

The hon. Gentleman mentions planning and whether pubs can expand, and it is important that pubs have that opportunity. However, the biggest planning issue currently facing pubs is the fact that big supermarkets can come in and change a pub into a supermarket without any reference to planning law. In my constituency we have a significant campaign to try to save The Crispin—I was not going to mention it, but the opportunity now arises. A pub that currently operates perfectly successfully under Enterprise Inns will be closed because the lease has been signed to Tesco. Indeed, Labour’s planning proposals would increase restrictions on pubs that are turning into supermarkets, and deal with many of the concerns that I have already raised. Hon. Members gave many examples of pubs that are being closed to become supermarkets.

[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Gentleman has treated us to a tour of the country and listed some 30 or 40 MPs who have done something to save pubs. It has all been very interesting, but we have not heard what he will do to save pubs. Rather than packing his speech with such examples and filling time, will he get on with telling us what he is going to do?

[Toby Perkins]

Many contributions that hon. Members have made are important to their constituents and they will consider it pretty disrespectful for the hon. Gentleman to say that I am filling time. I do not think I am—this is a significant issue. We can all get the press release out or attend packed public meetings, and we can all rail against unfairness and talk about how a pub company sold a false prospectus and failed to consider the needs of the community, but today is the day for talking to finish and for us finally to act. People will reflect on whether, when given the opportunity to act, Members of Parliament stood up in the Chamber to complain about the situation or actually took action.

Business Rates

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Wednesday 4th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about the significance of business rates for pubs. I am sure that he knows this from his perspective, but will he give us an idea of how many pubs have a rateable value of more than £50,000? I would think that there are very few, so virtually every pub would be able to drink to Labour’s business rate cut for all businesses below that £50,000 level. Will he support that policy for the sake of British pubs?

[Andrew Griffiths]

I am always prepared to listen to anything that might support the great British pub, but as the hon. Gentleman is from the party that introduced the hated beer duty escalator and the smoking ban, he needs to think long and hard about what he can do to support British pubs.

Pub Companies

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for those comments, and he is entirely right. The potential exists for this to be a really significant moment, but I do not think we can go any further than that yet.

The Secretary of State’s call for evidence was certainly enthusiastically answered. He wrote to seven different organisations to ask for their views on how self-regulation was working, and he received 19 responses. That is a return rate of 271%, which is the sort of extraordinary and implausible statistical feat that we generally expect to see in a Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflet, but there we have it, right at the heart of Government.

Before I get into the detail of how we can ensure that the Government’s announcement makes a meaningful difference, I will reflect briefly on why the debate is so important to so many Members, their constituencies and constituents and the economic and social fabric of our great country. Pubs are synonymous with our great island story, from fictional boozers brought to life, like the Rovers Return in “Coronation Street”, to pubs that have gone down in history such as Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, famously frequented by Samuel Johnson and where Mrs Perkins and I had a very pleasant lunch just a few weeks ago.

In almost every village, town or city in the land, and indeed in every Member’s constituency, there will be pubs that make us proud of our localities and say much about our areas, and which our constituents wish to see thrive. Britain’s pubs are not only important as key hubs in the community, they are economically vital. Last year, beer and pubs contributed £21 billion to UK GDP, and the Campaign for Real Ale has estimated that the average pub employs 11 people and contributes £80,000 to the local economy.

However, CAMRA recently revealed that around 18 pubs are closing every week, and countless more are fighting for their lives. As we know, when pubs close the cost of failure is felt not just in social terms but in economic terms, at a time when our faltering economy can afford it least. There are now 2,582 fewer pubs than in 2010, equating to 200 jobs lost for each week of the year.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that 18 pubs closing a week is too many. He will know, however, that under the previous Labour Government pubs were closing at a rate of 54 a week—four times as many. Will he apologise for the Labour party having let down pubs so badly?

[Toby Perkins]

That is a frankly disappointing contribution from the hon. Gentleman. One key point that people may reflect on is that there are now 2,582 fewer pubs than in 2010.

[Andrew Griffiths]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths]

rose—

[Toby Perkins]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), and then I will give the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) another stab.

[Toby Perkins]

We absolutely can agree on that. I hope Ministers hear that message—it is precisely the principle of the motion on which we will vote shortly, and I welcome the opportunity to see the hon. Gentleman in the Division Lobby. He makes the point very well.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I recognise what the hon. Gentleman says—that the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee did not call for statutory regulation in its reports—but does he not think that the Labour Government needed to have done something in their 13 years in government, when more than 9,000 pubs closed?

[Toby Perkins]

Many challenges, to which I have alluded, faced the industry during the previous Government’s term. In the last two or three years of the Government, we had the recession and people were stretched, and in times before the recession, people’s habits were changing. Pubcos were operating in the way I have described, but the Labour Government attempted to give them the opportunity to put their house in order. I believe that the hon. Gentleman is of the view—I apologise if I am wrong—that the pubcos should have been given longer. That was his view when we debated pubcos about a year ago. Members on both sides of the House accept that pubcos were part of the problem and that the previous Government attempted to give them the chance to do things right, so it is difficult for him to criticise the previous Government for doing so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths]

I do not think that family supermarkets are an issue in this context.

My second point relates to the self-regulatory code. What the Government are proposing is a two-tier system, with the big boys in the first tier. There is some confusion over what they mean by tied leases. The British Beer and Pub Association, for instance, thinks that this applies to two companies, Punch Taverns and Enterprise Inns. If the Government are talking about tied and tenanted leases, that is not what they set out in their press release yesterday, and it is not what the industry thinks that they are talking about. There is a need for the Minister to clarify what the Government are talking about.

All tenants can now go to arbitration, but the arbitration system is funded by the industry as a whole, and large companies such as Punch Taverns and Enterprise Inns are paying the lion’s share of the cost of that self-regulatory body. Those companies will not be prepared to pay to be regulated twice: they will pay either for statutory regulation or for self-arbitration, but not for both, so I wonder what will happen to the self-regulation system. Have the Government talked to the industry about the implications of the big two or big six pulling out of funding the self-regulatory body? I also wonder how much pressure the industry will put on the smaller companies to sign up. I acknowledge that that is not such a big issue, but everybody has signed up to the self-regulatory code, and that pressure will dissipate if the Government’s new system is introduced. Legislation is being proposed in order to tackle one or two problem companies, but have the implications for the rest of the industry been fully thought through? I urge the Minister to address those concerns.

There is another problem that our pubs and landlords face: the beer duty escalator. The amount of duty that brewers and publicans are paying is killing pubs and breweries. The biggest single thing we could do to help the industry is scrap the beer duty escalator. We have had a bit of a love-in with Opposition Front Benchers this afternoon, but it would be remiss of me not to point out the record of 13 years under a Labour Government. They increased beer duty by 60%.

[Toby Perkins]

I have in front of me a document from the House of Commons Library which shows the amount of duty as a percentage of retail price for each of the last 12 years. In 2000, 14.5% of the retail price of a pint of beer was duty, whereas the proportion is now 15.4%, so it has hardly gone up at all.

[Andrew Griffiths]

The hon. Gentleman must be the only person who does not think that the last Labour Government increased beer duty and introduced the beer duty escalator, and crippled pubs and the brewing industry as a result.

My time is almost up, but I urge the Minister to think about what I have said.

Pub Companies

Debate between Andrew Griffiths and Toby Perkins

Thursday 12th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to stand here at the culmination of this excellent debate, which has shown the House in a tremendous light. Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on securing and opening the debate. I congratulate also the hon. Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Northampton South (Mr Binley) on their work on this issue. It is to the Minister’s shame that despite diligent research and the magnificent campaign fought by many interested organisations, we are debating how to put safeguards into a policy that was announced without proper consultation and in direct contradiction of assurances given by him.

I shall refer to the remarks of some Members during my contribution, but I must pick out specifically the brilliant and passionate speech of the hon. Member for Northampton South. He described how the Government have reneged on their undertaking, and pointed out that the problem was the major pub companies that have more than 500 pubs. The hon. Member for Leeds North West spoke brilliantly and exposed the shameful collaboration of the Government and the BBPA. That point was also taken up by the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh).

My hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) talked about the impact on jobs. That is a vital issue: every week hundreds of people lose their job as a result of the number of pubs that are closing.

The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) spoke up for pub companies, but said that they were drinking in the last chance saloon—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) rightly said that the last chance saloon sounded like a pub where time is never called.

[Andrew Griffiths]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Toby Perkins]

I am afraid I do not have time.

The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) felt that on balance there needed to be some regulation. She defied those who think that a Member cannot make a serious speech wearing a scarf—something that may catch on.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) talked about how, because of their flawed business model, the big pub companies are squeezing out unreasonable returns. My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) said that the Prime Minister was dodging his round at the bar. The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) reminded us of the role of the pub in uniting couples over the years. He reflected on the good fortune of Mrs Jones to have been drinking in the right pub at the right time.

There were interesting contributions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen and my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley). The hon. Members for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke about alternative ways in which pubs might choose to improve themselves.

Today we have heard a lot about the history of this issue, but it is worth reminding ourselves that we have had seven reports and there have been four inquiries by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. The Government’s response has many flaws, which other Members have exposed, but I want to talk about two specifically.

On the issue of pub closures, which was exposed by the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), the Minister has swallowed the big pub company line that free-of-tie pubs are more likely to close. He must know that in general tied pubs do not close permanently, because, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) pointed out, they have a history of churning through huge numbers of landlords who try and fail—another business going under, another life unfairly ruined. One pub company had a churn rate of 65%, so although the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) says that people should go into such arrangements with their eyes open, that does not reflect the reality experienced by many tenants and lessees. Like the hon. Lady, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) was previously a landlord—for Enterprise—and has strongly made the point that many people’s lives were ruined because they were not aware of what they had let themselves in for.

In March 2010, a Federation of Small Businesses survey found that 84% of tied businesses believed that their relation with the pubco did not allow them to compete effectively, 90% believed that the arrangements meant that they could not make a fair profit, and 87% indicated that they wanted to be free of the tie. Despite that evidence, the Government say in their response, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) pointed out, that the debate over tied or free-of-tie status is a distraction. We think that is entirely wrong.

The FSB is not the only organisation to study the issue. The Institute for Public Policy Research also questioned tenants and lessees, and its findings showed that free-of-tie landlords manage pubs longer, are more optimistic about the future, are less likely to be struggling financially, and earn more. According to that study, 46% of tied publicans earn less than £15,000 a year. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) noted that the IPPR found that 88% of publicans who claim to be struggling financially identified the beer tie as one of the most significant factors in their financial problems.

The Minister, in his written response, built a man of straw, claiming that the critics were calling for the tie to end completely. He must know that that is not the case. All the critics are saying is that if the traditionally tenanted arrangement is such a good deal, why can the big pub companies not offer both tied and free-of-tie options, and let their tenants decide?

The Select Committee discovered that at every turn the big pubcos had failed to take the actions they had promised. In desperation, the Committee said in March 2010 that it would give the industry a final chance to prove that self-regulation could work. It was supported by a sympathetic Government who promised to back its findings. When there is such knowledge and such commitment and when the industry has been given every chance to put its house in order, how can the Minister possibly write that the issue is more complicated than the critics realise?

What the critics may have failed to understand is not the issue surrounding pubcos but the developing relationship between the pubcos, the BBPA and the ministerial team. As the hon. Member for Leeds North West said, the save the pub group has discovered, through freedom of information requests, that throughout the process the referee was getting changed in the same room as one of the teams.