UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Andrew Griffith and Valerie Vaz

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Griffith]

Thank you, Mr Davies. The Government think that the aim of reducing regional inequality is already implicit in the bank’s current objective. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell reminded me, the bank was constituted in Leeds, rightly outside of the overheated south-east. A number of its early investments have already seen their capital deployed to some of the most left-behind parts of the United Kingdom. Our belief is that the objective of supporting regional and local growth provides a clear direction for the bank without being overly prescriptive, which I am sure nobody would want. The strategic steer by the Chancellor in March makes clear that the bank must focus on geographical inequality, with reference to the levelling-up White Paper, which the House will debate tomorrow. That is the right place to set out the Government’s strategic approach to levelling up, but that is best done on a portfolio basis rather than investment by investment, which is what the amendment implies.

Turning to the second part of the amendment, the bank’s framework document already includes, under its regional and local economy growth objective, achieving higher levels of productivity and providing opportunities for new jobs—something the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead talked about as an important output. We think it is more appropriate to have this requirement in the framework document rather than in legislation to minimise the legal risk across investments. I am sure that we can all agree that no one wants to create more work for lawyers.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Yes, we do.

[Andrew Griffith]

The right hon. Lady will have to talk to her Front Bench if that is the official policy, but I assure the Committee that it is not the policy of the Government.

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[Valerie Vaz]

The point is that this is public money. The bank has to be accountable for it. Lawyers are the guardians of justice. It is not about making more money for lawyers. It is about interpreting legislation that is put through very quickly and not thought through. That is the basis of it.

[Andrew Griffith]

The hon. Lady makes a very fair point on the valiant role of lawyers in keeping us all to account. The alternative, of course, is legislation that is clear and allows the appropriate degree of discretion. The Government contend that that is what this is.

The amendments by the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead would include in the bank’s objectives the improvement of pay and living standards. Economic growth in the long run is closely linked to supporting productivity, income and employment and living standards. It is implicit in the bank’s objectives. Including the amendments would make the objectives too wide-ranging for an infrastructure bank, as it could focus on anything relating to pay or standards, for example training programmes or household appliances, which do not come under economic infrastructure. For these reasons, we consider it preferable to keep the statutory objectives as they are—a balance between clarity and flexibility—while instead providing further recommendations as to the bank’s targets and areas of focus via more flexible mechanisms such as the strategic steer, which can be updated from time to time.

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[Valerie Vaz]

Those objectives are not set out in the Bill. Are they going to be in secondary legislation?

[Andrew Griffith]

As I have laid out, the Government’s position is that the steer to the bank, which is flexible and can be updated from time to time, rather than requiring primary legislation—it may be something the Labour party wishes to take advantage of in future—is a more agile and flexible way of guiding the bank as it seeks to achieve its objectives.

[Andrew Griffith]

That is what I am suggesting.

[Valerie Vaz]

So how do they know?

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[Andrew Griffith]

I thank the hon. Lady and I reiterate that, in general, our differences are to do not with outcome, but with process and how prescriptive one should be when putting things into legislation. Philosophically, the Conservative party does not think it is always right to be over-prescriptive; the objective is to provide a flexible and agile tool that can be responsive and deliver the outcomes that we seek. Passing laws in itself does not change the outcome.

[Valerie Vaz]

That is the whole reason we are here as legislators. I gently remind the Minister that it is important to put things in the Bill; otherwise, there is confusion and there are too many grey areas. The Minister does not want lawyers to get involved, but it is important to have clarity. That is the purpose of legislation. Does he agree?

[Andrew Griffith]

The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead asked me to clarify. Of course we do not put everything in legislation; that is just not the way that we work. As we have committed to doing on the strategic steer, we bring things to Parliament to provide the opportunity to debate and discuss them. How this will work will be laid down in the Bill itself. As I have explained, the strategic steer can be issued from time to time—once per Parliament. Its legal status is that the body itself must have regard to it and then respond by setting its own strategic plans.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Debate between Andrew Griffith and Valerie Vaz

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Griffith]

There is indeed scope, but there is also interplay with other expected reviews to which the UK Investment Bank will be subject. While I oppose, fairly, all the amendments put forward, I undertake to come back on these points at subsequent stages.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

I understand that the Minister considers that hon. Members are being well meaning but, if I may say so—I do not know if this is parliamentary language, Mr Bone—that is a tad patronising. We are talking about transparency and ensuring that the bank, which is using public money, is going in the right direction. It should not be too difficult for the bank to come back and have a review in a much shorter time than seven years. Given that we have had three Prime Ministers in a year, we might see many Ministers in those seven years. This Minister may give us his undertaking, but he might not be in place throughout that period.

[Andrew Griffith]

I am not sure quite how to react to the right hon. Lady’s predictions about my expected tenure, but I dare say she is probably right in many respects. Let us try to get through the remainder of the afternoon before making any amendments. I certainly did not intend to patronise any colleagues.

We have to get this right. The most important thing is that the bank is equipped to deliver the outcomes that we seek by deploying its capital in pursuit of its statutory objectives. I do not want us to trip over a particular interval when, inevitably, a number of reviews will be ongoing. Whether the right hon. Lady likes it or not, the undertaking that I am going to give is to come back on this. The Government have already moved in respect of clause 9(5)—from 10 years to seven. I hear from Members on both sides of the Committee that there is concern that seven years is still too long, and I undertake to come back on that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Griffith and Valerie Vaz

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government are on the side of small businesses and fiscal responsibly, and the introduction of the small profits rate will help the businesses that he talks about.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

When the Government cut the red tape and open the box, they will find 2,400 pieces of retained EU law, so what are they going to do to help small businesses navigate all the legislation that is going to drop on them at the end of next year?

[Andrew Griffith]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s conversion to the cause of easing the red tape that is buried within EU law. It is this Government’s objective to use our new-found freedoms to create regulations that are appropriate for the businesses of this country and that will help us to grow and deliver the prosperity we need for public services.

Virtual Participation in Debate

Debate between Andrew Griffith and Valerie Vaz

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Valerie Vaz]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for clarifying that. I think my hon. Friend was trying to say—and I know that Mr Speaker has made a ruling on this—that both the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister should be here on equal terms, just as Ministers are here on equal terms. Mr Speaker has made it very clear that he wants Ministers here, which is why we are all here—he wants shadow Ministers and Ministers. It is about equality between the two parties, and the two parties being treated the same. We saw what happened with the Prime Minister. We do not know what happens behind the scenes, and we do not know who is helping under the lectern and so on. The fact is that he is here to answer questions asked on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition—

[Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it in order that the Opposition party is clearly trying to filibuster and talk out a motion that will see our clinically shielding colleagues given a voice in this House? [Interruption.]

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[Valerie Vaz]

That is absolutely right. The Prime Minister did say that—

“work from home wherever possible.”—[Official Report, 23 November 2020; Vol. 684, c. 601.]

We can work from home, we have worked from home as Members of Parliament, and other Members of Parliament want to continue to work from home, and that is being denied. We are exposing hon. Members’ families, and the hon. Members, who are travelling backwards and forwards.

I take umbrage slightly with the Leader of the House. He thinks that if we are doing something remotely, we are not working. I have talked to many hon. Members. Zoom is horrible—whatever anyone says, it is awful. You have to concentrate, you have to stare—it is just absolutely terrible. What makes people really nervous about the whole thing is worrying about being late—suppose you have not logged in on time? Who is walking around in the background? Have you got the right background? It is terrible. Are you dressed properly? We would rather be here, of course we would, but we cannot be.

[Andrew Griffith]

The shadow Leader of the House has been generous to both sides in taking interventions. Having been in the past party to some of the deliberations of the Procedure Committee, I understand that there are strongly held views on both sides. I just put it to her and her colleagues that, tonight, what you are doing is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. There is a motion that will give our colleagues who are clinically vulnerable the opportunity to participate virtually and what you are doing tonight will deprive them of that opportunity—