Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Michael and David Jones

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The Government’s response to the consultation does just that: it provides a sustainable framework for the industry to go ahead and for investors to have a proper rate of return.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

3. If she will discuss with ministerial colleagues the potential benefits of Wales being the test bed of the People’s Rail revised governance proposals; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport about a range of transport issues that affect Wales. I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman spoke to my colleague the Minister of State for Transport only recently.

[Alun Michael]

I am sure the Minister recognises that the Welsh Government—led by Carwyn Jones, and including Carl Sargeant as the Minister with responsibility for local government and transport—are showing a capacity for innovation and for bringing co-operative principles to bear. Would it not be a good idea to support the Co-operative party’s idea of the People’s Rail, so that railway services in and around Wales are accountable to the travelling public? Will the Minister support that idea?

[Mr Jones]

The People’s Rail proposals are a helpful contribution to the continuing debate on how we improve our transport infrastructure—I believe they were first floated some four years ago when the Labour party was in power. The Government are currently considering our response to the McNulty review, which has identified ways in which to make the railways more efficient and affordable in the longer term.

Constitutional Reform (Wales)

Debate between Alun Michael and David Jones

Thursday 19th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Jones]

I would be very loth to second-guess anything that the Deputy Prime Minister might think.

The focus of the Select Committee report was the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which is now an Act. I reiterate the point that was made throughout the Bill’s passage through Parliament: the principal thrust of the provision is to ensure fairness in our electoral system. I have heard what Opposition Members have had to say about that, but it is inherently unfair that the vote of an elector in one part of this country should carry greater weight—in some cases, much greater weight—than that of an elector in another part of the country.

The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) made the point that he has made on previous occasions—that the so-called Welsh vote has to be protected. I very much share the view of Professor Richard Wyn Jones, a very distinguished academic whom I know, who says that this situation is something that has grown up over the years. In evidence to the Select Committee, he made the interesting point that in 1543, when Welsh Members of Parliament were first admitted to this place, the population of Wales was approximately 7% of the combined population of England and Wales and Welsh representation in terms of Members of Parliament was also approximately 7%. He said that there

“wasn’t any kind of formational deal that Wales should be over-represented”.

He added that since then there had been a “drift” in Welsh representation in this place. He went on to make the fair point that in the scheme of things, it is hard to see how a reduction from 6% to 5% of MPs could make that much difference to Welsh representation here, particularly when it is borne in mind that the overall number of Members of Parliament will be reduced from 650 to 600.

Another important point that he made, and which I put to the right hon. Member for Torfaen during his contribution, is that Welsh Members of Parliament hardly behave as a bloc. I heard what the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) had to say about the Welsh parliamentary party, but I have to say in all frankness that at that party’s most recent meeting, representation by Conservative Members was rather light, underlining the fact that Welsh Members of Parliament do not behave as some sort of single coherent body.

[Alun Michael]

I really do not understand why the Minister makes that point, as it suggests an element of disengagement on the part of some Conservative MPs. At that meeting, one of the Minister’s hon. Friends made a very constructive intervention, commenting that the meeting had been more constructive and consensual than he had expected.

[Mr Jones]

The Member who made that point was the only Member of the Conservative parliamentary party at the meeting—[Interruption.] I know that the right hon. Gentleman is disappointed that more Conservative Members of Parliament did not attend, but that underlines the fact that party politics, across the political divide, prevail just as much in Wales as in the rest of the country.

Welsh Grand Committee (Scrutiny)

Debate between Alun Michael and David Jones

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Alun Michael]

Methinks the hon. Gentleman doth protest too much. We will see the outcome, and if that outcome is jobs in south Wales we will welcome—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

rose—

[Alun Michael]

I shall give way in a moment. The Conservatives this morning are over-excited. I think that they are embarrassed—[Interruption.] They want to talk now, but they must listen. If the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan has any success in his discussions we will welcome anything that improves the situation in south Wales. However, I suspect that the Prime Minister might not be listening to the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr David Jones]

A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman appeared to accept the point made by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales had ignored the report of the Welsh Affairs Committee. Having served with the right hon. Gentleman on that Committee, I know that he is a fair man. Will he accept that there is adequate time for a response to that report by my right hon. Friend, and will he also accept from me that such a response will be made?

[Alun Michael]

I shall try to respond to that question fairly: my answer is no. The Select Committee has come out with a report that underlines the blindingly obvious, which is that this is all being rushed. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman look at the decisions. The summary states:

“The decision to hold a referendum on a change to the UK voting system on the same day as elections to the National Assembly of Wales might result in a number of problems for electoral administrators.”

It then goes to the heart of the matter:

“More generally, we are disappointed at the pace at which the whole package of constitutional reforms is being legislated and implemented. The provisions of the Bill will have profound consequences for the UK Parliament and for Wales in particular. We are equally disappointed that the Government has decided to timetable the Bill through the House of Commons without adequate opportunity for fuller scrutiny. We regret very much that the Secretary of State for Wales did not make allowance for a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee so that Welsh interests in the Bill could be considered in depth.”

That consideration should have taken place before the debates on the Floor of the House, and I underline “before”.

[Mr Jones]

That was not the question, though. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to confirm that he accepts that a response will be made by the Wales Office to the Select Committee’s report.

[Alun Michael]

An untimely, delayed response might be made, but that does not meet the point of timeliness and it is part of the general picture of unseemly rush by a Government who are clearly embarrassed by their own proposals.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Michael]

I do not think that I can. The Government are clearly embarrassed by all of this, which is why the Leader of the House has refused to be here, even though it should have been him responding to the debate today. I suspect that the Secretary of State, having taken over the subject, if you like, preferred to send her junior Minister as the fall guy. I have a great deal of sympathy for the hon. Gentleman because of the onerous burden that has been placed on his shoulders but, as I understand it, it is only the Secretary of State who decides whether there will be a Welsh Grand Committee in response, in respect for the Members in Wales. I see that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy)who, like me, has held that office, is of the same view. The Secretary of State should really have been here to answer for her own decisions.

[Mr David Jones]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his concern, but I assure him that the burden rests lightly. As a matter of information, the Secretary of State is at a Cabinet meeting, which is why she is not here.

[Alun Michael]

Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell us whether at that Cabinet meeting the Secretary of State is fighting for the interests of the people of Wales? I think that we know the answer.