United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion & Programme motion: House of Commons
Monday 14th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I have been a Member of this House for a good many years, but this is the worst piece of draft legislation that I have ever seen brought before us. It is a shabby and dishonourable piece of legislation, and I say that for two fundamental reasons.

My first objection to the Bill is that, if enacted, Ministers would have the ability to break international law, and the law would prevent there being a legal challenge to the use of those powers. Much of the debate so far has rightly focused on Northern Ireland, and I take seriously the potential threat to the Good Friday agreement but, importantly, the Bill also has far-reaching implications for all international obligations in this context. Those are not my words or those of the Opposition but the considered, objective and carefully expressed view of the House of Commons Library.

My second concern is that the Bill significantly undermines the devolution settlement for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in two important respects. First, the Bill states that the devolved nations will have to allow the sale of imported goods in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as agreed by the UK Government when they act solely for England, even if those imported goods did not meet quality standards, consumer protection levels or appropriate labelling agreed by the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly. Of course, there should be agreement whenever possible—that should apply right across the UK—but there is a very real danger of standards falling as the UK Government cobble together trade deals. The Bill facilitates that.

My second devolution objection relates to funding and state aid. When Britain was in the European Union, less well-off areas, such as south Wales, benefited substantially from EU structural funds, the European regional development fund and the social fund in particular. My constituency, like many others, benefited enormously. The Government have proposed a shared prosperity fund to replace the structural funds. The Bill gives a legal base for that fund, but significantly, the Bill gives exclusive power to the UK Parliament and the UK Government to decide where and how that money is spent. Previously, the devolved institutions had a real say in how European money was spent in their areas. What I think will happen is that resources will not go to poor areas—the areas of need—but will be allocated according to Tory central Government priorities. That is structurally and morally wrong.

[Alun Cairns]

Is the hon. Gentleman fully aware of the frustration among communities in Wales that so much money has been wasted over so many years of the highest level of European funds? That could be the funicular in Blaenau Gwent, which broke down within weeks of being completed and was never used again, or so many other projects elsewhere that I could highlight.

[Wayne David]

What I am aware of is that many communities across Wales are fed up of Tory cuts. Despite the difficulties that many areas have experienced because of central Government policy, they have seen the European Union offer some help, and the concern is that that help will now not be coming from a Tory Government. The help will go to areas that are already well off, which is morally and economically wrong.

That is why I conclude that this Bill is one of the worst pieces of draft legislation ever to be put before the House. It enshrines the possibility of illegality. It objects to international law as it is widely applicable. It rides roughshod over the devolution settlements. It opens the door for resources to be given to well-off areas, rather than being allocated on the basis of demonstrable need. It also undermines the international standing of this country in the eyes of the world.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The best outcome for Wales and the Welsh economy is that the UK leaves the European Union in an orderly manner with a deal. We will continue to work with energy and determination to make sure that that happens. However, the UK will be leaving the European Union on 31 October.

[Wayne David]

Given that 90% of Welsh lamb is exported to other countries in the European Union, does the Secretary of State still believe that, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, a viable alternative market will be Japan?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I met the Farmers Union of Wales yesterday, and I will be meeting NFU Cymru quite soon. The Japanese market is a new market that opened in January. It is wholly separate from the free trade agreement that the European Union has with Japan, so there has been lots of misreporting that the hon. Gentleman fails to recognise and understand. However, his constituency voted to leave the European Union—why is he trying to stop the process?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that question. He will be well aware that, in the past quarter, the UK economy was growing faster than the eurozone economy—the UK grew by 0.6% while the German and Italian economies went into decline. That highlights some of the opportunities that we face but, of course, we can grasp them in the smoothest way only if we manage to get a deal with the European Union.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Given that the Wales CBI has said that a no-deal Brexit will see a £7 billion annual fall in Welsh manufacturing output and output generally in the economy, will he, for goodness’ sake, simply admit that a no-deal Brexit will be bad for Wales? Before he responds, let me say that I do not want a Maybotic answer.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will know that there are many predictions in economic forecasts, but they are forecasts rather than fact. He will have predicted a recession after the 2010 general election—he may well have even predicted a double or treble-dip recession—but I hope that he will recognise the fantastic employment data that was published yesterday showing record numbers of people in work in Wales. The inactivity rates in Wales are at staggeringly positive numbers, matching the rest of the UK for the first time since records began.

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Monday 19th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I want to make some progress, then I will give way.

I was discussing the opportunities for Wales as we leave the European Union. I hope Members throughout the House will welcome the news earlier today that an agreement in principle has been reached with the European Union on the implementation period. As the Prime Minister has said, that shows that with good will on both sides, it is possible to agree an arrangement that works for all sides.

As we leave the European Union, the Union of the UK is more important than ever before. We are a Union of four nations developed over a long history, communicated through a common culture and a shared identity. As a result of joint working and the collaborative approach taken by the UK Government and the Welsh Government, we have delivered a fiscal framework that secures Welsh funding over the long term and a Wales Act that puts Welsh devolution on a stable footing.

Despite what is often reported in the press, the relationship between the Governments is positive, and I take pride in that, along with the First Minister. While there will undoubtedly be challenges ahead, Wales is well placed to benefit from the many opportunities that leaving the European Union offers, such as the chance to form new partnerships, maintain relationships with old allies and become true beneficiaries of the UK being a global leader in free trade.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State must be concerned by a leaked document from the Government five weeks ago indicating that there would be a 9.5% reduction in Wales’s economic growth rate if the Government failed to achieve a deal with our European partners. If the Government are considering the possibility of no deal, he must be extremely concerned about that projection.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but he knows that the Government do not comment on leaked documents. Statements have been made that those documents were not complete, nor were they approved by Ministers.

I am happy to talk about the strength of the Welsh economy and the opportunities we have to exploit the UK being a global leader in free trade. Wales was the fastest-growing nation in the UK in 2016. We have 98,000 more people in work since 2010, with 44,000 more women in work and unemployment down by 48,000 compared with 2010. That demonstrates the strength of the Welsh economy, in which I have significant confidence.

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[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Wayne David]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I will give way in a moment, but I want to finish this important point.

This means that we expect to be able to devolve 40 areas with either no frameworks or only informal agreements. The result is that the vast majority of powers returning from Brussels that intersect with devolved competence will fall under the full control of the devolved Administrations from day one of exit.

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[Alun Cairns]

Clearly, we will consult, but we will also use and honour the Sewel convention, which is the basis on which legislation has been developed and drafted ever since 1999—with the agreement of the devolved Administration.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Alun Cairns]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I then want to make some progress.

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[Wayne David]

The Secretary of State is very kind. This is an important point, and it is important to have clarification. He has mentioned the retention of powers “on a temporary basis”. How long is temporary?

[Alun Cairns]

The reason for using the word “temporary” is that we want to bring in order-making powers for 24 areas of law to use them to protect the UK market until we have reached a position of agreement with the devolved Administrations on how we will enact legislation to put in place frameworks on those areas of law. In each and every one of the areas, we will, as we progress through the 24 areas, use the Sewel convention. This demonstrates the pragmatic, positive process we are pursuing. I could easily give some simple, practical examples of why this is important, but Wales has certainly more to gain than it has to lose. I have highlighted the fact that 80% of Welsh output goes to the rest of the UK, and that undermines—sorry, underlines; let me clarify that this underlines—the importance of doing the right thing on these 24 areas of law, because one part of the United Kingdom should not be given the power to hold up every other part.

Much attention is understandably given to the EU market, but the UK market is central to the success of the Welsh economy, and we must recognise the importance of the UK market to investment and jobs. As I have mentioned, 80% of Welsh output goes to the rest of the United Kingdom, so protecting the internal UK market will protect jobs and investment in Wales and across the UK. Where these limited common frameworks are needed or indeed essential, we will continue to apply the principles of the Sewel convention, seeking the support of the devolved Administration at every stage. This is an entirely reasonable proposition, and follows the foundations on which devolution has been established since 1999. I hope that the Welsh Government and Labour Members will recognise that we have moved a considerable way on this, and will see the importance of providing as much certainty and continuity as possible for businesses in Wales. We will continue to work closely with the Welsh Government to secure their agreement to promote a positive recommendation on a legislative consent motion in the Assembly.

Advice on the 24 areas, as well as on the others that we do not want to be subject to an order-making power, has come from industry itself. An expert panel was established, and businesses have raised genuine concerns about their UK prospects being undermined. Industry has advised us all the way along, and that is how we have ended up with these 24 areas. Any action to scupper that will be undermining—genuinely undermining —industry and business, as well as investment prospects, in Wales.

Agriculture is a key area of the Welsh economy and central to our way of life across Wales. Last summer, I hosted the Environment Secretary at the Royal Welsh show where, in one his first official engagements, he met the Farmers Unions of Wales, the National Farmers Union Cymru, the Country Land and Business Association and other key stakeholders, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies), who was working at the show that day. Our engagement with them has continued since then, with all of them having regular access to UK Government Ministers and officials. Most recently, the farming Minister—the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice)—met a group of representatives at the Royal Welsh agricultural showground to discuss our exit from the EU, but also to talk about longer-term plans for the UK’s environment and agriculture sectors.

At many of those meetings, if not all, geographical indicators have been raised, because we all recognise the importance of labelling, marketing and branding our produce. A moment ago, I talked about clause 11 and frameworks. This is a good example of why a UK approach is needed to protect the interests of producers and consumers. We obviously need common regulations on food labelling across the UK because we rightly want to protect the status of Welsh lamb, Welsh beef, Halen Môn and many other brands, so that they are recognised and protected across the UK and beyond. That does not mean, as has been suggested, a one-size-fits-all approach to branding. We are committed to protecting all 84 of the registered geographical indicators now and after EU exit.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales (Morning sitting)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Alun Cairns]

Rwyf yn falch iawn fod y cwestiwn yna wedi cael ei ofyn. Rwyf yn deall y peryg ac yn ymwybodol o’r sensitifrwydd. Mae’n rhaid bod y partneriaid lleol yn ymateb i hyn, er mwyn bod setliad gan bawb. Os nad yw pawb yn gytûn, yn amlwg, bydd y bargen dinesig a’r bargen twf ddim yn cael cefnogaeth gen i na’r partneriaid lleol eraill. Mae’n rhaid fod pawb yn gytûn yn y broses. Rwyf yn awyddus i weld busnesau ledled y rhanbarth a thu hwnt yn hybu'r bargeinion hyn, gan adeiladu ar gryfderau'r ardaloedd—pob ardal—gweithio'n drawsffiniol a rhoi hwb i'r economi lleol.

Roedd y Gyllideb hefyd yn cydnabod bod angen gwella ein rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd, gan roi hwb i gysylltiadau a gwella teithiau i gwsmeriaid ar y trenau mwyaf diweddar.

(Translation) I am very glad that that question was asked. Obviously, I understand the risk, and I am aware of the sensitivity that arises. Local partners must respond to that to ensure that the settlement is for everyone, because if everyone is not agreed, obviously the city or growth deal would not be supported, whether by me or by other local partners. Everyone must be agreed on the process. I am keen to see businesses across the region and from further afield driving the deals, building on the strength of the regions—that is all regions, cross-border too—and boosting the local economy.

The Budget also recognised the need to see further improvements to our rail network, boosting connectivity and delivering better journeys on the newest trains.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

What possible justification can the Secretary of State give for the breaking of a promise to electrify the railway line—

[Wayne David]

What possible justification can the Secretary of State give for breaking the promise to electrify the railway line from Cardiff to Swansea?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for asking that question, but he will be fully aware of the calls by the Public Accounts Committee, which is formed on a cross-party basis, for every element to be reviewed case by case for value for money. Projects that were not deemed to be value for money because there would be no improvement, such as the time to be delivered between Cardiff and Swansea, did not justify the additional sums of money made available. Under the current proposals, it will be the same trains travelling on the same track arriving at the same time as would have been the case under electrification that went the whole way to Swansea or stopped in Cardiff.

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[Wayne David]

Does the Secretary of State agree that business confidence would be increased massively if businesses had some sort of idea of what the Government are trying to negotiate in the Brexit negotiations?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will recognise that we are in negotiations, and he would not expect us to show our hand during that process. I would point to the significant inward investment—the UK is the leading place for attracting inward investment in Europe, which demonstrates the confidence business is showing in the economy—and the uplift in economic growth last quarter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend has rightly recognised that scrapping the Severn tolls is a significant boost not only to the south Wales economy, but to the economy of the south-west of England. He welcomed it along with the South Wales chamber of commerce, Business West and many others. It seems that the only people who have not welcomed the scrapping of the Severn tolls are the Labour party and the Welsh Government.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Further to the Secretary of State’s first answer, will he give a categorical commitment that all areas in Wales that are in receipt of European structural funds will continue to be eligible in the near future?

[Alun Cairns]

The UK shared prosperity fund can do even more because we will not have the same restrictions that the European Commission puts on European structural funds. It hardly makes sense that some of the most deprived parts of Wales are excluded from the European structural funds map as it stands because of European rules. The UK shared prosperity fund allows us to introduce a much more efficient and responsive scheme.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

8. What recent discussions he has had with his Cabinet colleagues on the potential effect on the Welsh economy of the UK leaving the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The Welsh economy approaches EU exit from a very strong position. Since the vote to leave the EU we have seen economic inactivity continue to fall in Wales while employment has risen to a record high. Businesses continue to show confidence in the economy, with new investment across the UK fundamental to prosperity in Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady raises an important issue, and I would say that Wales has been the fastest growing part of the UK outside London since 2010. She makes an important point in relation to the future of structural funds. She will also appreciate that they are meant to be a short-term boost to the economy, but after 16 years and after £4 billion has been spent, west Wales and the valleys have 64% of UK GVA. I am sure we need to use this opportunity to be positive and do something better with similar structural support.

[Wayne David]

Does the Secretary of State’s answer to that last question imply the Government intend to change the agreed priorities for the spending of the structural funds?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate both that his constituency has experienced some significant falls in unemployment since 2010 and that after all that money has been spent those areas voted in the strongest numbers to leave the EU. The point I am making is that the current programme has not worked and has not fitted those communities. Exiting the EU presents an ideal opportunity to revisit this and look to see what we can do better for the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and other communities in Wales in need.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

It is in the UK’s strategic interests to maintain a steel-making capacity, and so quite obviously to maintain that at Port Talbot. The Government stand ready and waiting to support any bidder. It is a matter for Tata as to whether it pursues the joint venture. We are maintaining a relationship with Tata and other potential bidders that were in discussions earlier this year. We are keen to maintain a sustainable future.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Welsh steel is obviously of the highest quality, and I hope that when Heathrow airport is expanded Welsh steel will be used. In that sense, will the Secretary of State have a word with the Prime Minister to ensure that she stops faffing around on Heathrow expansion and that we have a positive decision as early as possible?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but he knows that that decision will be coming soon. He makes an important point about the use of steel in infrastructure projects. The UK Government have already changed procurement rules, making it easier for British steel to be used in contracts. For example, Crossrail, Europe’s largest civil engineering scheme, uses almost entirely British steel.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The Government new clauses and amendments deal with a number of issues, in three main categories. First, there are a number of technical drafting changes to ensure that the new devolution settlement functions as it should. Secondly, there are amendments addressing several issues that have arisen during the ongoing discussion of the Bill with the Welsh Government, the Presiding Officer and the Assembly Commission. Thirdly, I am pleased to have tabled a number of amendments that address issues that I committed to return to when they were raised in Committee before the summer recess.

New clause 4 deals with a drafting issue and is a consequence of the devolution of responsibility for local government elections. It makes changes to provisions in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 relating to the timing and franchise for police and crime commissioner elections, which are reserved under the Bill and are currently linked in law to timing and franchise for local government elections. Under the Bill, responsibility for that provision will be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales. The new clause is therefore necessary to avoid certain aspects of PCC elections in Wales being subject to any future changes that the Assembly makes for future local government elections in Wales.

Hon. Members will be aware that the St David’s Day agreement provided that all aspects of the election of PCCs in Wales would remain the responsibility of the UK Government and Parliament. The Bill provides that PCCs, including their elections, are reserved matters, so the Government believe that the new clause is appropriate. It provides that the timing of ordinary elections of PCCs in England and Wales will cease to follow the timings of other ordinary elections in England and Wales. Instead, it provides for them to be held on the first Thursday in May in the year of an election.

The new clause also amends section 52 of the 2011 Act so that the franchise for PCC elections in Wales ceases to correspond directly to that for local elections and instead corresponds to the parliamentary franchise, with the exclusion of overseas electors and the inclusion of peers and EU citizens, who are entitled to vote in local government elections.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

My understanding is that the Government are currently considering a report from the Law Society on consolidating and simplifying electoral law. Given that PCCs are not a devolved matter, would it not be sensible for the Government to hold their fire and amend legislation on that, rather than introducing an amendment at this point?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is clearly missing the purpose of what we are trying to do. We are seeking to devolve responsibility for local elections to Wales, but because the franchise for those elections is linked to that for the elections for police and crime commissioners, any change to the franchise for local government elections in Wales will have a consequential effect on that for PCC elections, which are non-devolved. We are therefore seeking to separate the franchises, so that the same people have the right to vote as is currently the case. That will give the Welsh Government the freedom to change the franchise for local government elections as they see fit, should they, for example, wish to change the voting age. It would not be appropriate for such changes to be extended to elections for police and crime commissioners. That is the purpose of the new clause.

Points of Order

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last Thursday this House had an excellent debate on Welsh affairs, but unfortunately the Secretary of State for Wales was absent. The Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), said:

“I can advise the House that the Secretary of State has parliamentary business elsewhere”.—[Official Report, 3 March 2016; Vol. 606, c. 1162.]

However, we learned from Twitter that the Secretary of State was at a lunch with Bexley Conservative Ladies, and I have the photograph to prove it. That is not parliamentary business, so I respectfully suggest that the Under-Secretary comes to the Dispatch Box to apologise for inadvertently misleading the House.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker, I am happy to clarify the position and, of course, apologise if I have inadvertently misled the House. I can confirm that the Secretary of State was on a mixture of Government and political activity that afternoon. I can also confirm that it was always expected that I, as Under-Secretary of State, would respond to the Backbench Business Committee debate on St David’s day.

Barnett Floor (Wales)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

The spending review is a matter for the Chancellor. We, as a Conservative Government, are delivering on our commitment to introduce the Barnett floor, as we have announced, alongside the spending review. That commitment was repeated in our manifesto and the floor will be introduced, as announced.

[Wayne David]

The operation of the Barnett formula and the Barnett floor is complicated, but does the Minister accept—this is fundamental to our whole discussion—that at a time of falling public expenditure, when cuts are being made, the Barnett floor is not really an issue? It is only an issue at a time of increasing public expenditure. It is relatively easy for the Government to introduce the Barnett floor now, and I suggest they should, but its real impact will be in the future, when expenditure increases.

[Alun Cairns]

I find it a bit rich that the hon. Gentleman is complaining that a Barnett floor has yet to be introduced when we are committed to introducing it. We said we would do it last March and in our manifesto, and we will introduce it alongside the next spending review. When he was part of an Administration, although Wales’s relative position was deteriorating, absolutely nothing was done to introduce a Barnett floor.

Hon. Members will be aware that since 2010 significant commitments have been made, beyond the Barnett formula, to back the Welsh economy. Those include a commitment to fund and upgrade the great western main line through to Swansea and a significant contribution to the cost of the upgrade and electrification of the valley lines, reinforcing the UK Government’s support for improving infrastructure in Wales. Two years ago, the Welsh Government were given early access to capital borrowing powers to use for M4 improvements.

Welfare Reform (Welsh Valleys)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Alun Cairns]

In a moment—with the greatest of respect, I would like to make an element of progress, certainly at the outset.

We have taken steps to deal with the legacy of a welfare system that encouraged dependency and penalised those who wanted to work. The benefits system was clearly broken. It did not work for claimants, for the economy or the people of those communities or for the nation’s finances. According to the Work and Pensions Committee, a parent who increased their hours from 16 to 30 hours of work a week would gain less than £1 for every extra hour they worked. It was hardly a system that incentivised people to do the right thing. That sort of example underlines absolutely the need for reform.

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[Alun Cairns]

I hope to come to universal credit if I make progress in my speech.

Welfare reform is part of the long-term economic plan to stabilise the nation’s economy, to deal with the years of financial mismanagement under the last Government, and to get the people of Britain, including Wales, back to work. The Government want to move people from dependence to independence. We must enable them to free themselves from a lifetime on benefits and enable them to achieve their ambitions.

The previous Government, to their credit, recognised the need for changes to the welfare system. Various Governments attempted to address the issues, but only tweaked an already failed system. Another tweak was not an option. An overhaul was required, so we are creating a new welfare system in Wales and throughout the UK based on flexibility, simplicity and fairness. We want a system that can respond to the modern and flexible labour market, while ensuring that no individual is worse off by accepting a job. We want a system that is easy for people to use.

[Wayne David]

The Minister says he does not want people to be worse off by accepting employment, but part of the Government’s strategy is to reduce the value of benefits so that there is more incentive for people to take low-wage jobs because they are receiving hardly anything, and sometimes nothing, on welfare.

[Alun Cairns]

I am trying to get on to universal credit, but I will highlight how the poorest will be better off financially. We cannot take one policy in isolation and we must consider the reduction in unemployment—I hope that the hon. Gentleman recognises and welcomes it—as well as other economic changes.

We want a system that is easy for people to use but ensures that customers receive all the benefits to which they are entitled. We want a fair system that reflects the heart of our nation—a nation that looks after those who need it but ensures fairness for hard-working individuals and families.

Worklessness needed addressing and is being addressed. Surely we must all be concerned that 200,000 people in Wales have never worked. That is wholly unsustainable. As Welsh MPs, we should want the Government to do all they can to move people from dependence to independence. I am sure the hon. Member for Caerphilly supports that and that we can continue to enable people to free themselves from a lifetime on benefits and enable them to achieve their goals.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes a point that I will try to cover when I come to universal credit. The introduction of universal credit will always make people better off while they are in work. I have highlighted one example and could cite many more of people who were trapped in the benefits system. All parties have recognised the need for reform and the universal credit will bring about the change to move people from dependence to independence. Clearly, it is not good for individuals, their families or their communities to be out of work and it is certainly not good for the rest of the nation.

Successive Governments have failed to tackle the problem, but we have tackled it head-on. We are working to improve the incentive to work because it remains the best route out of poverty. Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that the latest statistics show that the number of workless households in Wales has fallen by 19,000. Across the south Wales valleys, 17,000 more people are in work since the election and almost 12,000 have come off benefits. I hope that the hon. Member for Caerphilly will recognise that.

[Wayne David]

Does the Minister accept that in-work poverty is now greater than ever before?

[Alun Cairns]

That is one thing that universal credit will put right because people will always be better off. I will come to that in a moment. Our reforms are already reaping benefits. People are moving from dependency on benefits and into work. That is a positive step for Wales, for communities and for the individuals who, for far too long, have been locked in the benefits system.

The welfare system we inherited was built for 1940s society and is no longer able to deliver the support that people need in a modern flexible labour market: the sort of market that communities are already adapting to. Our benefits system needs to reflect that and to support people who need it.

A flexible labour market will be supported by universal credit because households in Wales will be entitled to £163 more a month on average and 75% of those who will gain will be in the bottom 40% of the income distribution curve.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Tuesday 6th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Not at all. I welcome those announcements. I wish there had been an announcement about improvement to the infrastructure in my constituency, and I wish there was to be improvement to the main infrastructure coming into Wales along the M4 corridor, but today’s announcements are obviously positive. However, we need to underline the delays that take place on that artery, that investment is essential and that borrowing powers need to be granted. Improvement should have taken place well before now. The original commitment was made pre-1997 but the Labour Administration cancelled it and the Welsh-led Labour Administration have not built it since. We should consider the delays, the accident records, the damage to the south Wales economy, and the hauliers based in my constituency who have had to set up on the Avonmouth side of the border because of the lack of investment and ambition over the past 15 years on the part of the Welsh Labour Administration.

[Wayne David]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that borrowing powers are vital because the Welsh Government’s capital budget has been cut by one third because of central Government cuts?

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I will support this Bill, although I have to say that it is very disappointing because it is, I am afraid, a bit of a shoddy compromise. Everyone realises that the Secretary of State for Wales is no enthusiast for devolution—indeed, some people might go further than that—and we know that the Liberal Democrats are quite enthusiastic, so we have a cobbling together of two different opinions, and the Bill suffers as a consequence. Its main proposals, which are modest and relate to the tax-raising capacity of the Welsh Assembly, are very limited. It also has strangely attached to it some new arrangements with regard to the electoral politics of the Welsh Assembly.

Although the first part of the Silk report has been quoted in support of the Bill, there is a great deal of difference between what Silk proposed and what the Government have put before us. For example, Silk states very clearly and boldly that

“for the financial accountability and empowerment of the National Assembly for Wales to be improved sufficiently, it should be responsible for raising a more substantial proportion of its spending.”

That is the core of its proposal. What the Government have given us on income tax-raising powers is a long way from the aspiration articulated by Silk. It is important to recognise, too, that a genuine and fundamental concern has been expressed by many people, including those in the Welsh Assembly, that there is no significant movement on Barnett. This proposal is a real runner only if there is a cast-iron commitment to, and a firm set of proposals on, modifying the Barnett formula as it applies to Wales. Under Barnett, as we all know, Wales is short-changed to the tune of £300 million per year, and that situation will not be addressed by this Bill.

[Alun Cairns]

I am interested in the sum of £300 million because it was presumably derived from the Holtham report, which is now some years old. Gerry Holtham also pointed out that as public spending contracts proportionately, the Barnett formula will protect Wales and the £300 million will decrease. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

[Wayne David]

The £300 million figure, which is quoted widely and not just by me, is the most accurate figure that we have to go on at the moment. It is widely used by a number of academics as the main basis for the calculation.

[Alun Cairns]

My point is that the figure is several years old. There has been a change in the scale of public expenditure since then, and it is therefore nowhere near £300 million any more. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, given that Holtham said it in the report?

[Wayne David]

Not necessarily, because an added scenario that Gerry Holtham did not take into account is the austerity package that has been put together by this Government, which has led to huge cuts in the Welsh Assembly Government’s budget. To begin with, those cuts have not kept up with inflation, but all the indications are that they will be significantly deeper. That is an important backdrop to the whole matter that we are tackling.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wayne David]

I do not think I said that. The hon. Gentleman has put forward an interesting hypothesis and I am sure we will consider it at the appropriate time, but it is not relevant to the discussion we are having here.

As I was saying before I was interrupted, one of the most significant constitutional changes in the Bill is the proposition that we should change the method of election for the Welsh Assembly—that there should be a revision of what was agreed in the Government of Wales Act 2006. Like other Members, I have been travelling around Wales listening to what members of the public have to say. Reference has been made to a report from the Bevan Foundation. I remember that report well, as I was one of the Members who commissioned it. It came to the objective conclusion on the basis of a representative cross-section that, as the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) said, most people in Wales did not understand the system. They also thought it was intrinsically unfair that individuals who put their names forward for election but lose the election should suddenly appear in the Welsh Assembly—most people would assume that, as those people had lost, they would not be elected.

It is fundamentally impossible to explain the rationale behind that or to argue that it is fair. Whatever special pleading we make for small parties because of how difficult it is for them to get together a sufficient number of candidates, it is an unfair proposition.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Wayne David]

Yes—do your best to explain it.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House why he thinks that either his anecdotal evidence or his summary of the Bevan Foundation’s reasons for its recommendations are more independent or fair than the work of the Electoral Commission, which was challenged legally to come up with a full consultation, based on evidence, and ultimately to give the Secretary of State a recommendation? The commission did so, and found in favour of the measures in the Bill.

[Wayne David]

It is basic common sense. If someone loses an election, they do not get elected—it is as simple as that. I challenge the hon. Gentleman to explain to anybody in the street why that is not fair. I guarantee that he will fail. Go on—have a go.

[Alun Cairns]

I do not want to labour the point too much, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the 2003 election every Labour Assembly Member topped the regional list. That suggests that there is yet another inconsistency. Even the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, who I suspect was highly unlikely to lose, topped the list. The Opposition used the system in their interests, in spite of what has been stated now.

[Wayne David]

I am at a loss to understand the rationale behind that. We live in a democracy and have to accept the system that Parliament agrees. That does not mean that we think it is right, because it is not—it is fundamentally wrong. What is being suggested in the Bill amounts to gerrymandering.

I will give a couple of examples of how the regional list system as it stands at the moment is being abused in an immoral way. There is the case of Mohammed Asghar. He was elected to the Welsh Assembly as one of Plaid Cymru’s regional list Assembly Members, but having been elected as such, then decided to cross the House and join the Conservatives. Why did he join them? Was it a great matter of political principle? No. It is said that there was a disagreement about the employment of his daughter, so he decided to cross the House and use the system.

Another, more relevant and contemporary example is that of an Assembly Member called Lindsay Whittle. Lindsay Whittle was elected to the Welsh Assembly as a Plaid Cymru list Member for South Wales East. However, Mr Whittle is also a member of Caerphilly county borough council. He lives in Caerphilly and appears to spend a disproportionately large amount of time in Caerphilly. [Hon. Members: “He lives there.”] He does live there, but he works there as well, irrespective of the rest of his constituency. I put this to the House: can it be that Mr Lindsay Whittle is so interested in the council and in his own particular locality because he wants to stand in the Caerphilly constituency at the next Welsh Assembly elections in 2016? I think that is quite likely. The point I am making is that democracy in this country is based on representation. If someone does not represent people properly, but instead represents their constituents selectively and picks out who they are going to focus on, it is undemocratic and unfair. It is reprehensible for the individual to behave in that way, but it is also reprehensible that they are able to do that under the political system.

If Mr Whittle does indeed stand for re-election in 2016, his calculation will be, “Yes, I’ll have a go at Caerphilly but I don’t need to worry if I lose because I still have the old regional list system to fall back on.” That is a practical example of this unfairness. I challenge any Member to explain to the people of south-east Wales how that can be justified and how it is an example of democracy as we understand it—it clearly is not.

amendment of the law

Debate between Alun Cairns and Wayne David

Monday 25th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I shall say more about Labour’s inconsistency later.

All the issues I have mentioned have had impacts on the living standards of families throughout the United Kingdom. Decisions such as these are difficult to take, but they must be seen in context.

What I welcome most is the Chancellor’s drive to create the most competitive of economic environments. That will attract investment, and will also continue to encourage the private sector in the UK to invest. The further reduction in corporation tax goes to the heart of a sustained economic recovery, and underlines the economic imbalance that we inherited. The 20% corporation tax rate means that we now compare exceptionally well with our major competitors. In Germany the rate is 29%, in France it is 33%, and in Italy it is 31%. Those are material considerations for anyone who is thinking about where to invest, and for any United Kingdom investor who is thinking of expanding. We should also bear in mind the uncompetitive position that we inherited. The increase in employers’ national insurance rates led to the term “jobs tax”, with which we are now familiar.

The ultimate judgment will come in the grades that the World Economic Forum confers on the competitiveness of the various nations. Having ranked fourth in 1997, we were dragged down to 13th by the Labour party. At last, however, we have recovered enough to rank eighth—and that happened before the announcement of the welcome changes in the Budget. Neither the 20% corporation tax rate nor the employers’ national insurance relief were taken into account.

Other Budget measures that I welcome include the “help to buy” mortgage guarantee schemes. That is an area of policy in which no Government would ideally become involved. However, bearing in mind the context I referred to earlier, the Chancellor had little choice other than to get involved. The scheme will provide a welcome boost to the construction and retail industries and various elements of the service sector, and it will make a significant difference to many families who want to buy their own home.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

On “help to buy”, does the hon. Gentleman think it morally correct that millionaires can get support to buy second homes?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman recognises, I hope, that the economy needs to be kick-started. He always refers to the changes to the highest income tax rates and the 5% reduction that will take place next week. However, I remind him that the rate Labour introduced was temporary. If so, when was Labour planning to abandon it? The ultimate question that Labour Members have to answer is, will they reintroduce for the next general election the 50% rate that was in their manifesto? I will happily give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wants to intervene again. Obviously, he does not, because they are not prepared to say whether they will commit to doing that.

I am pleased that the homebuy scheme will be limited to three years because as I said, it is not a policy area that any Government would want to be involved with in perpetuity, because of some of the risks that have been highlighted. It simply is not a public sector initiative that any Government would want to undertake all the time.

If those who want to criticise such initiatives are to have any credibility, they need to offer some form of alternative. It is hard to believe the audacity shown by some Labour Members. Less than three years ago, they were responsible for, or were the loudest cheerleaders for, the policies that led us into this position, giving this country the most debt-ridden, overspent, unbalanced economy in modern history. Manufacturing had declined by more than 20%, public sector job numbers had ballooned and we had the highest debt level of any G20 nation. I notice that the Labour Members who were seeking to intervene and criticise earlier are now staring at their boots.

These initiatives are aimed at promoting growth and freezing or cutting spending. [Interruption.] The Labour critics really need to come up with some alternatives. Until they have accepted their responsibility, they will lack credibility and no one will listen. Even Lord Mandelson recognised that just last week. They came up with some sort of plans in the past. Spending the 4G auction money on 100,000 new affordable homes was one option; a two-year freeze on stamp duty was another. However, that money has already been used—on the national debt—so I look forward to hearing their alternatives.

This Budget will make a difference to families, and help to kick-start the housing sector and to make Britain’s economy much more competitive. I look forward to hearing the solutions that Labour Members will try—