Referendum on Scottish Independence

Alister Jack Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day]

I do indeed see the irony and I oppose the House of Lords as a whole on principle, not just on that point.

To continue with the substantive part of my speech— I am sure that I will provide many opportunities for everyone else to intervene—

[Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Martyn Day]

The hon. Gentleman does not know I am going to say next, but of course I will.

[Mr Jack]

The hon. Gentleman mentions the new Under-Secretary of State moving from Perth and Kinross to that job. Does he think that it is appropriate for the former Member for Gordon to move to RT?

[Martyn Day]

I do not think I will deign to answer that—that is not part of a democratic process.

Circumstances change and people have the democratic right to revisit any decision or policy at any time they choose at an election. The 2014 referendum is simply a case in point. It is pretty clear to me that the United Kingdom that the people of Scotland voted to remain in in 2014 no longer exists. During the referendum campaign, Ruth Davidson and the then Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), assured voters that a yes vote was a vote to leave the EU. He is sitting beside me, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong on that. But where are we now? The UK is clearly no longer a strong or stable member of the EU. It looks like we are pretty much on a shoogly nail on our way out.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jack]

If that is what the SNP genuinely believes, why did it hold a vote in the Scottish Parliament on a second independence referendum when opinion polls showed that less than 50% of people were in favour of having one? Of course, that was an Achilles heel for the SNP going into the last general election.

[Martyn Day]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I hoped that I had clarified that point by reading out the full position in our manifesto. There are two conditions in it: a clear and sustained majority for independence, or a significant material change, and the example we gave is being played out in front of us just now. Indeed, it is very timeous that we are debating this issue as the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill enters Committee stage, which might fulfil that democratic mandate of ours.

However, we are not out of Europe yet. I say this as someone who was strongly pro-remain, but I hope that the disaster of Brexit can be avoided and that the will of 62% of the Scottish people can—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey.

Today’s debate is on two opposing petitions: one that argues in favour of another Scottish independence referendum and one that argues against. I am proud that the people of Dumfries and Galloway, whom I represent, voted by a factor of four to one in favour of the latter.

For those of us who live in Scotland, these petitions are characteristic of the ongoing political discourse since the result of the last referendum was declared on the morning of 19 September 2014. It is time for this matter finally to be put to bed. One of the success stories of the general election this June—I realise that they were few and far between—was the election of 13 Scottish Conservative MPs to this place. Those new Scottish Conservative MPs, including me, were elected very much on a mandate of stopping a second independence referendum in its tracks.

[Gerard Killen (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jack]

I shall make some progress first.

That message resonated with Scots right across the country, quite simply because people are fed up with Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP putting their obsession with our constitution ahead of governing in the interests of Scotland. Today’s debate is not about whether Scottish independence would be a good thing; I argue strongly that it would not be. It is another debate about process, which, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) made clear, is something that the SNP loves.

Constantly talking about this issue is like having Cicero’s sword of Damocles looming over the Scottish economy.

[Danielle Rowley (Midlothian) (Lab)]

On process, does the hon. Gentleman agree with me? My constituents have written to me, saying that they do not want another referendum. Many of them were remain voters in the Brexit referendum, and for them the only thing worse than the chaos that we have at the moment from the UK Government would be the further chaos of another referendum and uncertainty.

[Mr Jack]

Yes, I do agree—[Laughter]—as hon. Members will not be surprised to hear.

Before becoming a Member of Parliament, I spent 30 years working in business, and I can tell hon. Members from my own experience and from speaking to many businessmen and women across Scotland that the business community will not thank anyone if Scotland is dragged into another divisive referendum, creating uncertainty. That would be calamitous.

Much of my argument today is about uncertainty for businesses wanting to decide on their capital expenditure projects, on resourcing themselves and on their future investment. All that is very difficult when people are wondering all the time whether we are going to be doing the extraordinary thing of heading into another independence referendum that would lead to so-called independence within Europe. We cannot be independent within Europe. I would argue that this is not about Brexit. It is not in any way a route that Scottish business should go down, outside the United Kingdom, on the basis that we do four times more trade with our United Kingdom partners than we do with our EU partners.

I say to the SNP that the legal, fair and decisive referendum was held on 18 September 2014. Polling day was preceded by two years of debate and discourse, and the people of Scotland then rejected independence. The question has been decided. To quote the former First Minister, although I will not do so in Russian, that vote, as has been said many times in this debate, was a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity.

[Brendan O’Hara]

In the spirit of “Better Together”, which is very much in evidence this afternoon, does the hon. Gentleman agree with the former Labour Lord Provost of Glasgow, Dr Michael Kelly, who just last week confirmed his belief that Scotland has to wait until every single person who voted in the 2014 referendum has died before it should get another referendum?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jack]

All I will say to that is that if I had my way, we would wait even longer. For that reason, I shall conclude by paraphrasing the former SNP Member for Hamilton: stop the grandstanding, Scotland wants to get on.