Gaza Border Deaths: UNHRC Inquiry

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Friday 22nd March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

The hon. Lady points out one of the major difficulties in the United Kingdom accepting the commission of inquiry as a full commission. All the available evidence from open sources, and other sources, accepts that Hamas played a part in pushing people towards the border, and that circumstances in which death or injury were likely to result were deliberately created and exploited. Whatever accountability and criminal investigations there will be regarding members of the Israel Defence Forces, we can be certain there will be none in relation to Hamas, which is an imbalance. None the less, nothing justifies the circumstances, and all parties should be doing what they can to ensure that although there is a right of protest and—rightly—a right of defence, that should not end with the tragedies that the commission has had to document.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I appreciate the Minister’s responses and his overall tone. Does he agree that although the report rightly points in some cases to the disproportionate use of force, it does not look at the whole picture, which is what we would want from a fully independent and transparent process? Although there are some issues that clearly require a criminal investigation, just as for difficult issues in our own past, any inquiry must consider all factors that took place.

[Alistair Burt]

As my hon. Friend and other Members know well from their own experience, the tragedy of the area is that the sheer practicalities prevent the sort of inquiry process we would expect, and it is very difficult to gain evidence of what might have inspired those who went to the fence, propelled by Hamas. That there were legitimate protests is not in doubt. The organising committee and those legitimate protests have no connection with those of violence. That we know, but we cannot know too much about what Hamas did, the exploitation of people and the results, because it will never be possible to get that sort of investigation. That is why I seek to set this in the context of needing to end the situation overall, because until there is a comprehensive peace agreement—a two-state solution, with justice for the Palestinians and a secure and safe Israel—we will not see an end of this. That is why the United Kingdom, and I suspect this House, must want us to continue to press for that above all.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

8. What recent assessment she has made of the humanitarian situation in Yemen.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Alistair Burt)]

Yemen remains the world’s largest humanitarian crisis, with nearly 80% of the population requiring humanitarian assistance. The UN is set to launch a new $4 billion appeal for 2019 later this month, at a pledging conference at which I hope to represent the UK. The UK is providing £170 million this financial year, including enough food for the equivalent of 4 million Yemenis for a month.

[Alistair Burt]

The situation in relation to the conflict has moved on a degree with the fragile peace agreed in the Stockholm agreement. That fragile ceasefire and redeployment of forces continues, as a result of which the humanitarian situation is improving. The latest figures I have show that in January commercial and humanitarian imports via sea, over land and via container met 94% of monthly food requirements and 83% of monthly fuel requirements. The situation in Yemen was caused not by the Saudi coalition but by a Houthi-led insurgency.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Before Christmas, there was much discussion about the ceasefire around the port of Hodeidah and the prospects that it would bring for improving the humanitarian situation in Yemen. What further progress does the Minister expect to be made in helping those who have suffered for so long in Yemen?

[Alistair Burt]

The ports of Hodeidah and Salif are open and they are taking in more ships. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the test of whether the political agreement in Stockholm is having an impact will be measured by success on the humanitarian front. We will continue to do all we can to support the UN efforts to find peace in Yemen.

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Monday 7th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

On and off, I have been dealing with consular cases in the middle east region since 2010. I have met a number of families in very difficult situations following a variety of crises, as well as those who have been held. In each particular case, we have tried to engage the consular service, which tries to look at each case individually and to apply its sense of what is in the best interests of each individual being held abroad. The contact has to be very good between them and the families, but I know that there is not always agreement about what might be in the person’s best interest. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) is the Minister with responsibility for consular matters within the Department—[Interruption.] One of my ministerial colleagues has principal responsibility for all consular matters, and I will certainly ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s request is passed on—[Interruption.] The Minister responsible is my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin). We have heard the hon. Gentleman’s request, and I am sure that a colleague will attend that APPG meeting if a request comes through.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I wish to make a brief point of order about the progress of business, if possible.

Ukraine-Russia Relations

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

As my hon. Friend will know, I do not ignore anything related to Europe—either the European Union or the Council of Europe. I welcome the collective action that we take through our friends, and will continue to do so. I value the Council of Europe, and my hon. Friend’s expression of support for it is well made.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

rose—

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[Kevin Foster]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. There was the usual contest for last!

The Minister will be aware of the many parallels with past situations. Vladimir Putin’s approach seems similar to the process of heating a frog in water: if he keeps pushing up the heat, it will not produce an instant reaction. Can the Minister reassure me that he is talking to other nations about what will happen if Putin continues to push down this power? We obviously do not want to see an escalation, but let us be clear that it is Russia that keeps escalating these situations.

[Alistair Burt]

I know from my experience in other parts of the international field that what my hon. Friend has said is correct. There is always concern if a state seeks to demonstrate its power through means that are questionable, or sometimes downright illegal. States will sometimes push the envelope. The risk is that at some stage there will be a miscalculation and a confrontation. The United Kingdom will do all in its power to prevent such a thing, but the risk is taken by others, and my hon. Friend’s point is well made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Wednesday 10th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

The consensus in the Security Council is that the best thing we can do is support the envoy, because a new resolution would either not get through or not be relevant. We do not want to waste any time on efforts away from the special envoy. While we were in New York, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary had a meeting with the relevant parties, and separately I met those in the coalition, as well as people representing those who have influence with the Houthis, because this is not a one-sided issue.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

The biggest tragedy of Yemen is that ultimately it is a man-made disaster that is having this appalling impact on the local population. Will the Minister confirm how the UK Government will support efforts towards a political solution, which is the only solution to these issues?

[Alistair Burt]

We were very supportive of the efforts of special envoy Martin Griffiths to bring the parties together in Geneva recently, and we were very disappointed and concerned that the Houthi component did not attend those negotiations. Until the negotiations are fully engaged with by all sides, we cannot proceed. All efforts must be made to support the special envoy and get the negotiations back on track.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Wednesday 18th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I am conscious of both aspects on the hon. Gentleman’s question. Just the other week, on 3 April, I was in Geneva, where I co-hosted a discussion on cholera with Sir Mark Lowcock, the UN Under-Secretary-General for humanitarian affairs. We had a roundtable of all the major agencies involved in dealing with the cholera outbreak, including the World Health Organisation and others. We are doing as much as we can to encourage preparation for dealing with that outbreak. Of course, we continue to work on ensuring that there is as much access as possible through any of the ports, although the hon. Gentleman is right that the lack of commercial shipping now coming into Hodeidah by choice is an extra burden.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Given the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Yemen, I welcome the role that the UK is playing in funding the global relief effort. Will the Minister confirm what more work his Department plans to do to ensure that we can get the aid to where it is needed within Yemen?

[Alistair Burt]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. On 3 April, DFID announced an additional £170 million for the new financial year in response to the humanitarian crisis in Yemen. We work with all partners to ensure that there is greater access and a greater prospect of resolution of the conflict through the new UN special envoy Martin Griffiths.

Protection of Civilians in Afrin

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Monday 12th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I am not sure that I know the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s very good question based on his knowledge of the area. As I said a moment ago, the different aspects of this conflict, and the different reasons that some states are taking action, go back many years and are intended to sort out many difficulties and issues brought to light by the conflict against Daesh and the break-up of Syria. It is not possible for the United Kingdom to say to other states what the end lines drawn on the map will be. Countries have concerns about terrorist activity. Turkey has been clear about that in relation to the PKK—a proscribed organisation both there and here—and we respect that in a NATO ally. However, as I have said in relation to what is happening in Afrin, we have been clear with our determination that there should be a de-escalation. And yes, we do call for a resumption of the negotiations between Turkey and the PKK—they only ended in 2015—to see whether there is a chance to bring that together. Perhaps the situation is not quite as hopeless as we sometimes feel when we look at the map.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I welcome the tone and content of the Minister’s statement, but it is depressing to be back in the House talking about yet more horrors in a country that has seen more than its fair share of them over the past seven years of this conflict. Can he reassure me on what efforts the UK will take to protect civilians if there is a protracted Turkish siege of Afrin?

[Alistair Burt]

We have consistently raised the need to protect civilians and to de-escalate the operation. We want to see the safe, unimpeded and sustained delivery of humanitarian aid and services that are urgently needed across the region and in Syria as a whole. We will continue to press for that. My hon. Friend can be assured that, although we cannot predict the outcome, he can be absolutely certain of the efforts we will make to try to de-escalate the situation and to have a humanitarian situation that protects civilians and hopefully sees them safer.

UK Relations: Saudi Arabia

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I agree with my hon. Friend. That is indeed the point of the engagement, which, I can again assure the House, covers the very positive parts of what is happening in Saudi Arabia, such as reforms and modernisation, but does not shy away from the difficult things that I know are on the minds both of Members and their constituents.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

It is right that we engage with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and it would be unrealistic to suggest that we do not. A number of us have a concern around the attitude to freedom of religion—people’s right to practise their own faith in the Kingdom. Can he reassure me that such issues will be raised during the visit to the UK?

[Alistair Burt]

Freedom of religion is a particularly difficult issue because of Saudi Arabia’s position as the custodian of the two holy mosques. We are absolutely clear: greater tolerance throughout the region, one faith for another, is crucial if the region is to move away from the path of confrontation on which it appears set. There will always be a voice here for tolerance of other faiths, and for progressive moves towards freedom of faith throughout the region.

Israel: US Embassy

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Thursday 7th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

The first thing we can do is to make clear our disagreement with the policy of the United States. The second thing is to work with partners to provide an assurance that the peace process will go on and to give people hope. The third thing is to say that the process must be continued with renewed urgency to get the result that we all want. That is the UK’s position.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I know the Minister will recognise that our relationship with the United States is far deeper than the question of whoever happens to be the current occupant of the White House, and the same is true of our commitment to the peace process in the middle east. Will he reassure me that we will stick to the original vision in the Balfour declaration of two democratic, prosperous states living side by side, and that we will continue to seek such a solution?

Yemen

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Monday 20th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement and comments so far in recognition of the humanitarian disaster, which is almost of biblical proportions. Can he say a bit more about the work we will be doing as a member of the Security Council to help the UN get the aid that is so desperately needed into Yemen?

[Alistair Burt]

The UK holds the pen at the UN, which means we have the primary responsibility among Security Council members for efforts to secure support for a negotiated peace, and the UK sponsored a presidential statement agreed on 15 June. That was an important signal of international concern, particularly about the deteriorating humanitarian situation. Our focus at the UN remains on encouraging all parties to convert the words of the text into action, and that work is going on in the UN all the time.

Iran

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Monday 16th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

The hon. Gentleman illustrates that no question is ever wasted here, and that was a good question. As always, the Government have to prepare for all eventualities. It is our belief that the JCPOA should be adhered to and all parties should stick with it, but of course should there be any change in that, we are always prepared. At the moment, we believe the agreement should stay in place and we have the agreement of many parties on all sides for that view.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Given wider concerns about the Iranian regime’s appalling human rights record, particularly on LGBT— lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender—issues and with the persecution of Christians, we can understand why people have some scepticism about accepting its word. Will the Minister reassure me as to just how thorough the monitoring of this deal is, so that everyone can have confidence that we are getting exactly what it intended to deliver?

[Alistair Burt]

As I said, we know enough about the International Atomic Energy Agency’s activity to be confident that the deal is being verified. There are elements of the deal that are confidential between the IAEA and Iran—we do not need to go into that—but we are confident about the verification and the matters that have already delivered certain very visible changes with respect to Iran’s nuclear stockpile.

Saudi Arabia: Anticipated Executions

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Monday 17th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the hon. Lady for her remarks; I have got the gist of the points that she was making. Saudi Arabia remains a Foreign and Commonwealth Office human rights priority country, particularly because of its use of the death penalty, its record on women’s rights and its restrictions on freedom of expression, assembly, religion and belief. No aspect of our commercial relationship with Saudi Arabia prevents us from speaking frankly and openly to it about human rights. We will not pursue trade to the exclusion of human rights; they can be, and they are, complementary. The United Kingdom will continue to adhere to that.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

The Minister will agree that it is depressing how regularly the death penalty is carried out not just in Saudi Arabia, but in its neighbour Iran, which has already carried out dozens of executions this year. Given the small likelihood of persuading the Saudis to abolish the death penalty completely, does he agree that it is best to focus on getting them to adopt the most basic of standards, such as not executing people for crimes they committed when they were juveniles?

[Alistair Burt]

Absolutely. I concur with all my hon. Friend’s points and, for brevity, I will leave it at that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

Absolutely, and a number of the pilots and pioneer programmes are doing just that. Early results from the living well programme in Penwith in Cornwall show a 49% reduction in non-elective admissions to hospital and a 36% reduction in emergency admissions to hospital. So the hon. Gentleman is right: better social care and better integration may have, and should have, an impact on hospital admissions and make sure people are receiving the most appropriate care in the most appropriate place.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I was pleased to hear the Minister’s reference to the integrated care organisation that is being created in my constituency. Given the increasing challenge of providing social care to those in the later stages of life, does he agree that this is a model that needs to be looked at, and will he give it as much support as he can?

[Alistair Burt]

Indeed; the ability to see how these pilot projects respond to the different demographics in different areas enables one area to learn from another. Torbay has come up frequently in this context, and I am pleased to be able to praise it again. While I am on my feet, I should also like to point out that many of those involved in adult social care were greatly affected by the recent flooding in the north of England and that they were looking after vulnerable people and working beyond the front line. That work was very important, and I am grateful to Ray James of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and to all those working in local authorities in the affected areas who contributed so well to looking after vulnerable people during that period.

NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc.) Bill

Debate between Alistair Burt and Kevin Foster

Friday 6th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster]

I could not have put it better myself. My hon. Friend is right that although the Secretary of State might appoint someone independent with skills and abilities such that they become a trustee by another route, the fact that they are appointed by the Secretary of State makes it appear that they are the Government’s person, even if they are diametrically politically opposed to the Government of the day. I am sure that the Minister will be able to think of examples of Government appointments who are not the most supportive of the current Administration.

[Alistair Burt]

Sometimes they are Ministers.

[Kevin Foster]

Indeed. This is a bit like the reforms to school governors, where we have reduced the number of local authority appointments. Although some were very independent minded and focused solely on the school and its interests, in other areas it was almost a tradition to have a certain number from Labour, a certain number from the Conservatives and a certain number from the Lib Dems.

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[The Minister for Community and Social Care (Alistair Burt)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) on securing her place in the ballot and on her speech. This is the NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc) Bill, but it will forever be known as the “Peter Pan and Wendy Bill”, and we shall all do our best to refer to it in that way as we proceed.

I thank colleagues for what they have said during the course of the debate. I welcome the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) to his place and thank him for his brief support for the Bill, which is appreciated.

Those of us who have known my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills for some years—I think we first knew each other when we were working in Rwanda together—will appreciate that there is a lot of her personality in this Bill: a determination to support the right causes, a fierce and deep commitment to the charitable objectives represented by the NHS, and her usual diligence in introducing the Bill and working very hard to secure support for it and to discuss the issues involved. I thank her very much for the way in which she has done this.

A number of J. M. Barrie quotes are appropriate, and we may hear them during the debates in Committee, if the House wishes to progress the Bill. The one that caught my eye was,

“one girl is worth more than twenty boys.”

I am not sure whether it is currently acceptable to make such a comment from the Dispatch Box, but I use it in its historical context as a sentence from the book, “Peter Pan”. I think that my hon. Friend has well demonstrated her worth in relation to what she has brought forward today.

The hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), in whose constituency lies Great Ormond Street hospital, made a very decent and correct response to the Bill in which he proudly supported his hospital, as of course he, and we, would wish to do.

[Kevin Foster]

The Minister says “his hospital”. He is obviously right that it is based in the constituency of the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), who sadly is not in his place, but it is actually the whole UK’s hospital given the services it provides.

[Alistair Burt]

My hon. Friend makes a point that I would have gone on to make and was emphasised by him and several others. Of course, Great Ormond Street hospital covers not only the areas of London but the rest of the country and, indeed, the world. That is one of the reasons we are so proud to support what my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills proposes.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), in supporting the Bill, commented on the history of Barrie, not least making the link with the childhood tragedy of the death of his brother leading to the chain of thought about a young boy living forever, which was certainly in his mother’s mind. My hon. Friend brought us that little bit of tragedy to remind us of the origin of the story.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mary Robinson) concentrated on the technical aspects of the Bill, to which I will turn later in my remarks.

My hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) raised some of the work done by the local charitable trusts in her area. She spoke of the Friends of the Princess Royal Hospital, Telford and the substantial sums that that charity has contributed to the work of the hospital.

My hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup) spoke of the League of Friends of Ilkeston Community Hospital and Treetops Hospice Care. She reiterated the point that although we have an almost uniquely taxation-based system of support for the health service in this country, that does not completely absolve people from the desire to make their own contribution to hospitals in a charitable manner, as they do in extraordinary ways.

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[Kevin Foster]

The Minister is making an excellent speech, as predicted during my own speech. Does he agree that the core issue is that charitable funds are not just giving extra to patients in the NHS, but going beyond what would be funded by the NHS? This is not about replacing taxpayers’ money; it is about giving that extra boost and extra bonus.

[Alistair Burt]

It is about exactly that. In a world of never-ending resources, there would be no need to look for charitable funding. As I have said, charitable funding covers not just finance but the instinct to give and support. Even if it was not about finance, plenty of people are able to support their local communities and local hospitals, not because they contribute financially, but because they give their time. Leagues of friends and others are perfect examples of that instinct.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) spoke characteristically succinctly about charities making a real difference in his hospital and health community. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) made a vigorous defence of the private Member’s Bill as an example of Conservative principles and values. I am not sure whether he wanted to convey that a vigorous defence of fundamental Conservative principles is best and appropriately summed up in a Bill about Peter Pan and Neverland. Perhaps he recognised that those principles are reflected in the fact that the most successful example of the genre is everlastingly popular. I am sure that is exactly what my hon. Friend meant to convey.

Members can imagine my shock at my hon. Friend’s suggestion that an anonymised, bureaucratic element in the NHS might be pursuing a seemingly puzzling and unnecessary course of action to add to bureaucratic difficulties. Although I do not necessarily recognise the exact unit of which he speaks, I will look into his concerns, just in case it can be identified.

My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) spoke of the contribution of Alder Hey hospital, which was also welcomed and supported by the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). My hon. Friend spoke of the new hospital and the charity work being done there. I am sure that most Members present would wish to recognise her contribution to a debate earlier this week in very different circumstances. She was immensely brave and her remarks will no doubt lead to much good. In today’s debate, she pointed out that charities can make a contribution to the running of even the best known hospitals.

Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), who had a personal reason for her particular interest in the Bill, referred to this country’s extraordinary pioneering work in medicine. That was exemplified by the news just this morning of genetic editing and the happy outcome for one little girl in particular. That reminds us of this country’s extraordinary reputation in medicine and medical research, and of the work of medical academics and all other health professionals. Every day we are appreciative of everything they have done for and contributed to this country’s reputation.

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[Alistair Burt]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point about the community’s engagement and the way in which it can work with existing health services. The renewed attention paid to mental health will provide many further such opportunities.

[Kevin Foster]

The Minister is being exceptionally generous in giving way to colleagues. Given the rapidly ageing population, which means that there are likely to be more demands on services because of age-related illnesses, does he agree that the Bill is very timely? That is particularly true in a ward in my constituency where 9% of the entire population is aged over 85.

[Alistair Burt]

My hon. Friend makes a significant point about the use of the health service and the relationship of charities to its work. I am sure that many of us have similar contributions in mind. I appreciate how the Bill brings those two things very closely together.

I think it would help the House if I made some progress on the technicalities of the Bill. As I have mentioned, the Bill delivers commitments announced by the Government in response to the consultation on the “Review of the regulation and governance of NHS charities”, published in March 2014. Charities were given the opportunity to seek greater independence under the sole regulation of the Charity Commission, so removing themselves from dual regulation under NHS legislation and charity law. Six NHS charities have converted to become independent and others are progressing towards independence.

The Government response to the consultation made it clear that, given the new freedom for NHS charities to become independent, the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees were no longer necessary and that they would be revoked as soon as possible once a legislative vehicle became available. This Bill is that legislative vehicle. It completes the reform of the regulation and governance of NHS charities, and it delivers the Government’s commitment to repeal the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees to NHS bodies that hold charitable property.

The Department of Health has stated that it will not appoint trustees to any further bodies that are not already named in existing trustee appointment orders. It will, however, continue to enable the replacement of trustees for NHS bodies that currently have Secretary of State-appointed trustees until the appointment powers are repealed. The Department has said that the provisions removing the Secretary of State’s powers, if the Bill passes into law, would be brought into force in April 2018. That will allow charities with trustees appointed by the Secretary of State a generous period of grace in which to decide whether to become independent or to revert to corporate trustee status with the board of the NHS trust or NHS foundation trust as the trustee.

The Bill confers powers on the Secretary of State to make regulations to transfer charitable property from the trustees of an NHS trust or NHS foundation trust to the trust itself. This power will enable the Secretary of State to ensure that, prior to the repeal of his powers to appoint trustees, any trust property held by trustees can be transferred back to the trust to which the trustees were appointed. It is hoped that all charities with trustees will have resolved their future status, either by becoming independent or by reverting to corporate trustee status, before the Secretary of State’s powers are revoked so that the powers will not be needed.

The Bill amends the provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, which conferred in perpetuity the rights to royalties, and other remuneration as agreed, from the play “Peter Pan” on the special trustees appointed by the Secretary of State for Great Ormond Street hospital. J. M. Barrie’s gift of the rights to “Peter Pan” has provided a significant source of income for the charity. I do not want to linger for too long on “Peter Pan” because we have said quite a bit about it, but in deference to my granddaughter, who may be watching this debate, I wanted to mention that I am proud to be able to take this Bill through its initial stages and, hopefully, beyond.

The quality of the gift provided by J. M. Barrie has been mentioned by others. It was an almost unique charitable gift. I hope that through our talking about it, others will be encouraged to do the same. There are many generous benefactors from show business and the business and economic community, but to provide an endowment to a hospital in the manner that J. M. Barrie did was remarkable. He was a remarkable individual. I think that colleagues in the House know a little more about him now than they did before the debate. One of the quotations that is worth leaving with colleagues is:

“When a new baby laughs for the first time a new fairy is born”.

I suspect many of us have had the pleasure of saying that to our own children and grandchildren. This is an appropriate opportunity to discuss such issues.

Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity was eager to take the opportunity to become independent. It became partially independent on 1 April 2015. It is, however, unable to complete its conversion to an independent charity because the original NHS charity has to be kept in existence until the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 is amended, so as to avoid its statutory rights to the “Peter Pan” royalties being lost. The Bill will confer those rights on the new independent charity for Great Ormond Street hospital.

Retaining the original NHS charity causes a number of complications for Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity. Most significantly, running the two charities side by side creates a risk that legacies to the charities may fail. It also duplicates the governance arrangements, requires the production of separate accounts and may require the submission of duplicate returns to the Charity Commission.

Transferring the rights to “Peter Pan” also clears the way for removing the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees to NHS charities. The Government will not remove those powers until such time as Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity no longer needs its Secretary of State-appointed trustees to receive royalties from “Peter Pan”.

In considering this Bill, the House needs to reflect briefly on the evolution of NHS charity legislation. Charities played a key role in the provision of healthcare before the NHS was created. In the years before 1948, people relied on a mixture of charitable provision and some limited national and voluntary insurance schemes. Prior to the NHS, many hospitals and other healthcare services were organised on a charitable basis, with their property and assets held in charitable trusts.

On the appointed day, 5 July 1948, the NHS took control of 480,000 hospital beds in England and Wales. The National Health Service Act 1946 transferred virtually all existing voluntary hospitals to the Minister of Health. The effect was that property previously held in clear charitable trusts for a hospital ceased to be charitable property. The 1946 Act also gave hospital boards the power to accept on trust further charitable property, such as donations. It gave the Minister of Health the power to appoint a hospital board as the trustee to hold charitable property for charitable purposes. The structure of the NHS has changed many times since the 1946 Act, but NHS legislation has always ensured that NHS bodies have the power to receive, hold and deal with charitable property.

NHS charities are characterised by the fact that they are bound both by charity law and their statutory objectives set out in NHS legislation, as well as by the fact that the Secretary of State has the power to appoint and remove trustees. NHS charities are linked directly to NHS bodies. In addition to raising funds, they have a special role as the charities that automatically receive money donated by members of the public to the NHS or to their linked NHS bodies. The NHS bodies that can hold charitable property are NHS trusts, special health authorities, foundation trusts, clinical commissioning groups and NHS England.

The statutory objectives of NHS bodies are derived from NHS legislation. They can hold property on trust both for the purposes of their linked NHS body or for any purposes relating to the health service. In reality, the vast majority of funds are held by charities linked to an NHS trust or foundation trust. They therefore hold property both for the purpose of their linked trust and for the purposes of the health service more generally.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills said, as at March 2015, there were about 260 NHS charities with a combined income of about £320 million and assets with a value of £2 billion. There is considerable disparity in size across the sector, with income heavily skewed towards charities linked to large, high-profile hospital trusts. At the time of the consultation in 2012, the top five NHS charities accounted for a third of the total income and the top 30 for over two thirds. That is why a concentration on smaller charities, such as those that have been mentioned by colleagues today, is so important.

The default position for an NHS charity is the corporate trustee model, whereby property held on trust is held by the NHS body itself, acting as a corporate trustee. The directors of the NHS body act collectively as a trustee for charitable property. The members of the board of the NHS body are not, individually, the trustees of the charity. NHS bodies acting as a corporate trustee are required, under charity law, to act exactly as an independent trustee would—that is, solely in the interests of the charity and its beneficiaries. The vast majority of NHS charities use the corporate trustee model. As at March 2015, of around 260 NHS charities, more than 90% had corporate trustees.

NHS legislation makes provision for the Secretary of State to appoint trustees for NHS bodies, and those appointed trustees carry out the trustee function in respect of that body’s charitable property. Trustees appointed by the Secretary of State have powers to hold trust property on the same terms as NHS bodies. Once in post, the trustees are answerable to the Charity Commission and not their linked NHS body.

The right hon. Member for Knowsley raised a potential issue in respect of the independence of charities and asked whether this provision would in any way deflect them from their other responsibilities. I assure him that that is not the case. Charitable law will still apply. They will still be regulated, but solely under charity law by the Charity Commission. That reduces the administrative burden and cost, and the calls on the time of the charity’s staff, but it does not weaken the essential controls. I hope that I have reassured him.

NHS legislation does not stipulate the circumstances in which such trustees should be appointed. The Department’s policy has been to establish bodies of trustees only where the charity holds such significant assets that it justifies the engagement of people with relevant expertise. The most recent Department of Health guidance, which was issued in 2011, said that assets of more than £10 million and an annual income or expenditure of £l million would provide a clear case for the appointment of separate trustees.

As hon. Members have mentioned, issues of charitable control are very much in the minds of the House at the moment and, I suspect, will continue to be so as we look into the background of Kids Company. It is important that when trustees are appointed, the importance of their role and the duties they have to perform is recognised. There should be extreme caution about appointing people to boards just for the sake of it, now more than ever.

[Kevin Foster]

There has been a National Audit Office report on Kids Company and I believe that the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee is looking into it. This Bill is about ensuring that the charities affected have the freedoms and benefits that all other charities have. There is a wider discussion to be had, perhaps at another time, about how charities should be structured to ensure that they operate appropriately and have good corporate governance.

[Alistair Burt]

That is absolutely right. The House will be pleased to know that I do not intend to go further down that road. In the context of recent discussions, it is important to ensure that the misuse of charitable funds is the exception to the rule. It is important that people retain confidence and faith in what charities do. That is why it is important to have a rigorous examination whenever allegations are made about things being wrong. In the NHS, such confidence is vital.

In practice, the Secretary of State has delegated his responsibility for making trustee appointments to NHS bodies to the Trust Development Authority, which is a special health authority. In addition to having powers to appoint trustees to an NHS body, the Secretary of State retains powers under NHS legislation to appoint special trustees for certain university hospitals or teaching hospitals. Those special trustees have narrower objectives than other NHS trustees. The special trustees’ objectives are limited to holding property on trust mainly or wholly for the hospital for which they are appointed, or for any other part of the NHS associated with hospitals. In contrast, all other NHS trustees may hold property for any purposes relating to the health service, as well as for the purposes of their linked NHS body.

As the House has heard, following the Government’s response to the consultation, there is now a process for NHS charities to convert to independent status. NHS charity trustees need to assess how they see the NHS charity’s future in order to decide whether or not to convert. There are a number of advantages to conversion. An independent charity’s liability can be limited. One main issue with the current position is that trustees appointed by the Secretary of State risk unlimited personal liability, and that can impact negatively on moves to attract new trustees with the relevant experience and expertise. Moving to independence allows trustees to form structures, such as limited liability companies that provide them with limited liability, thereby enabling them to tackle more significant and innovative projects.

Furthermore, in the eyes of a potential donor, an NHS charity can be seen as too close to Government. Experience has shown that donors—especially major donors—can be reluctant to give if they think the charity is simply seeking money that could or should be provided by the Exchequer. Some grant-giving charitable foundations will not entertain applications from NHS charities simply because of their connection to Government. An independent charity is able to adopt wider charitable purposes in respect of funds raised after it has become independent, and enter into more innovative fundraising initiatives, collaborations and mergers.

Independence removes the need for the charity to comply with NHS legislation, and enables it to be regulated solely under charity law by the Charity Commission. That reduces the administrative burden, costs and calls on charity staff time. It also removes the need to be tied to the “Agenda for Change” pay structure. “Agenda for Change” was not designed for charities and for some it hampers their recruitment of suitable staff at an appropriate salary.

There are, however, some drawbacks to converting to independence and some costs to conversion. There may be additional costs to being an independent entity, some minor VAT disadvantages, and the NHS body may fear a loss of influence over its charity. Each set of trustees has to decide what is best—whether to convert to independence or have corporate trustee model arrangements. Conversion involves the creation of an independent charity outside the NHS. As my hon. Friend said, conversion to independent status involves the creation of a new charity, usually in corporate form, either as a company limited by guarantee or a charitable incorporated organisation in relation to which Secretary of State has no powers. Alternatively it could involve the transfer to the new charity of all the charitable property of the NHS charity, or the winding up of the NHS charity.

The relationship between the NHS body and the independent charity is important. The conversion process requires a formal agreement, or memorandum of understanding, to be in place. The content of that is to be decided between the parties, but there must be a binding obligation on the NHS body to transfer all charitable donations it receives to the independent charity. The Department is also of the view that the NHS body should have some involvement in the new charity’s governance arrangements, for example by having a specific place on the board. That is because of the commitment for all future donations to be transferred to the independent charity, and because the independent charity’s objectives will continue to relate to the NHS.

The independent charity’s governing instrument—such as articles of association or its constitution—must ensure that the existing objects of the independent NHS charity are the same as those applying to the funds transferred from the former NHS charity. It will, however, be possible for the independent charity to have wider objects for new funds raised after independence. Prior to completion of the conversion, the Department must be satisfied with the final memorandum of understanding, and see evidence that the NHS body’s board has considered and approved the conversion.

As the House has already heard, five NHS charities with appointed trustees have converted to independent status: Barts Charity, Alder Hey Children’s Charity, Guy’s and St Thomas’ Charity, Birmingham Children’s Hospital Charity and Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity. Of the 16 remaining charities with appointed trustees, six have formally notified the Department that they are converting to become independent, one has formally decided to revert to corporate trustee status, and the other nine are at various stages of deciding the best way forward. One NHS charity with corporate trustee arrangements, Royal Brompton & Harefield Hospitals Charity, has already converted to independence, and Yeovil District Hospital NHS Foundation Trust charitable fund has notified the Department that it has decided to convert to independence—my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil will know it well. The Department is aware of other charities with corporate trustees that are actively considering conversion to independence.

In summary, the Government have listened to the NHS charities and given them what they asked for. NHS charities can, if they so choose, do away with dual regulation, and gain greater independence under the sole regulation of the Charity Commission. Alternatively, they can have corporate trustee arrangements that provide a tried and tested means of managing charitable funds. This Bill makes good on the Government’s decision to repeal the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees to NHS bodies. They are no longer needed. It also provides powers for the Secretary of State to transfer, by regulations, property from the appointed trustees to their linked trust, if any Secretary of State-appointed trustees are still in place when those powers are repealed.

The Department of Health has told the NHS that the powers to appoint trustees would not be revoked before April 2018, to provide a period of grace for trustees appointed by the Secretary of State to decide the most appropriate legal form for their charity in future. As we have extensively discussed, the Bill amends the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 to provide for the right in perpetuity for royalties from the play “Peter Pan” to be conferred on Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity. This Bill will enable the charity to complete its conversion to full independence.

I appreciate the points that have been made today and the way that the House has handled the Bill, and many colleagues have contributed. The Government are supportive of the Bill’s intentions, not because it delivers what we want, but because it helps to deliver the model and freedom that charities themselves have asked for.

I will conclude with one final quote from J. M. Barrie—[Interruption.] It is a final quote:

“Those who bring sunshine into the lives of others cannot keep it from themselves”.

Those of us who know my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, will know that that is certainly true about her, and I commend her Bill to the House.