Security in the Western Balkans

Debate between Alicia Kearns and Bob Stewart

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Alicia Kearns]

Dodik absolutely did do that. Once again my right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Over the next few days, there will be a great Easter coming together of Dodik, Vučić and others around a Greater Serbia, which I will touch on briefly.

I ask the Government to work with our allies to consider an alternative peacekeeping framework to EUFOR, led by NATO. The Dayton agreement gives NATO explicit permission to legally establish a force in Bosnia for peacekeeping without time limit or UN approval. There is widespread support from the Bosnian Government, and its legality under the Dayton agreement means that neither Dodik nor Putin could block it, unlike the current arrangement with EUFOR. As a minimum, the UK should send a NATO peacekeeping force to the strategic Brčko district, which I am sure my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) will speak about shortly. Even one battalion of NATO troops in Brčko would make a secession militarily impossible and have a stabilising effect on all of Bosnia’s politics.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Ind)]

I entirely endorse that point. A British battalion positioned in Bosnia would give a very strong signal. Frankly, a British battalion is probably the best battalion to send into such a peacekeeping situation.

[Alicia Kearns]

My right hon. and gallant Friend is absolutely right. To that point, I know that the Foreign Secretary, in answering questions from Members in the other place yesterday, said that he would prefer to emphasise and focus on Kosovo, but we saw that when British troops went into Kosovo last September, there was a resurgence in the delivery of the mandate. My right hon. and gallant Friend is right that British troops would make a fundamental difference. The fact that the Dayton agreement gives us explicit permission to create a new security force means that we should actively be debating it.

Finally, the UK should look at extending the sanctions levied against Dodik and other senior figures in his circle, which I was relieved to secure a few years ago. The joint sanctions with the UK and the US have begun to take serious effect, with Bosnian banks closing the accounts of those targeted. I urge the Government to consider sanctioning other figures from Republika Srpska who support laws designed to undermine the high representative and the constitutional court, promote genocide denial and glorification, and attempt to transfer Bosnian state assets to their personal control.

Bosnia, with its multi-ethnic character and constitution, is a barometer for the entirety of the western Balkans. When threatening the break-up of Bosnia, Dodik said:

“If anybody tries to stop us, we have friends who will defend us.”

I say, let us show him that Bosnia, too, has friends, and none more steadfast than the United Kingdom. Now is the time for deterrence, diplomacy and a rejuvenated NATO to take the initiative and ensure that Bosnia’s sovereignty and security are protected.

While the situation in Bosnia is tense, Kosovo is the only country in the western Balkans to have faced an attack on its soil since our last debate on the western Balkans. The Banjska attack carried out last September saw 30 heavily armed Serb militants murder a Kosovan police officer, Afrim Bunjaku, before engaging in a firefight from the Banjska monastery. The amount of weaponry seized from the militants was truly extraordinary. I have seen it myself, and I refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Ind)]

Some present will recall that I was the British battalion commander under UN command in Bosnia in 1992 and 1993. Since then, I have given evidence in four war crimes trials. I have visited Bosnia frequently over the last 31 years, and what happens there and to the people who live there matters to me and to all those people who have served there—whether in the military, for a charity or whatever. Somehow that country grips us, and it matters to people in our country.

I was last in Sarajevo just over two weeks ago, principally to attend the remembrance service for the Ahmići massacre, which took place on 16 April 1993 and where 116 people like us were killed. Those people may well have been Muslim, but they thought like us; they just had a different religion. Like us, they wanted to bring their children up, they wanted schools and they wanted things to work. That is why Bosnia matters—we are very much akin to the people who live there.

Today, Bosnia remains a very fraught place, with tensions between the three main communities: Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims. I could say there are tensions between the Christian community and the Muslim community, but I would like to point out that there are other people there, such as members of the Jewish community, particularly in Sarajevo. Tensions remain just below the surface, and sometimes they break through.

Bosnian society today is still like a lemonade bottle that someone has picked up and shaken. They put it down and think all is calm; they can see through it, and there are no bubbles. When they take the top off, there is an explosion—boom! Tensions in Bosnia remain ready to explode. These tensions are, of course, exacerbated by Russian support for Republika Srpska, which Russia already treats as an independent state. Recently, at a conference in St Petersburg, it was treated as a sovereign entity with its own flag. There have been strong indications, and maybe more than that, over the last few years that Russian weapons are going to Republika Srpska. With Russian encouragement, Dodik, Republika Srpska’s leader, whom my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) has already mentioned, is blocking all moves by the Muslim-Croat Federation and Republika Srpska—those two entities together are the country of Bosnia and Herzegovina—towards EU membership.

Just last week, Dodik stated that things will change after 2 May, which is today. Many people interpret that to mean that he will push for the secession of Republika Srpska from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If that were to happen, such a change would be a disaster for the western Balkans and would very likely result in yet another civil war. Our excellent ambassador to Sarajevo, Julian Reilly, is really worried about that.

Equally, our ambassador is terribly concerned about the number of qualified young people who are leaving Bosnia. Youth unemployment in Bosnia is at nearly 40%. No other country in Europe has such an appalling statistic. Bosnia is bleeding its youth, and the youth are the future of any country. The reason for that statistic is mainly the political situation and the unstable base on which the country sits.

[Alicia Kearns]

Is my right hon. Friend concerned that there is going to be an Easter Assembly, where Dodik and Vučić plan to sign a declaration around Greater Serbia? What does he think that means? What message does it send about Vučić’s plans and support for the tacit secession of Republika Srpska?

[Bob Stewart]

I thank my good and hon. Friend for saying that. I totally agree with the implication. The real problem is that Russia is encouraging this to happen. Republika Srpska, under Dodik, is pushing for it, and the Serbs will play both sides. If it were to happen, we could have an appalling situation like we had in the early 1990s.

In fairness, the British are doing all we can to help, particularly economically. We are trying to pump-prime Bosnia’s industry to support the setting up of new companies. Bosnia is still governed by the short-term rules—they were meant to be short-term rules—agreed at the Dayton peace conference in 1996. The rules were supposed to last a couple of years at most, but they have never been replaced. They really need to be sorted out to make a workable system for everyone who lives in Bosnia—Serbs, Muslims, Croats, whoever.

Sir David Amess Summer Adjournment

Debate between Alicia Kearns and Bob Stewart

Thursday 20th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I am increasingly concerned about developments in Bosnia, a country for which I have a great affection. Watching what happens there has understandably gone off the international boil, which is unsurprising considering what is happening in Ukraine, but we should not forget what has happened there in the past and could easily happen there again. In my view, the situation in Bosnia is rather like picking up a lemonade bottle and shaking it around. When we put it down, we think it is still clear and there has been no change, but try taking the top off. Bosnia could easily be like that.

Bosnia has a population of about 3.2 million people. On fundamental religious grounds, the population splits three main ways, though everyone is racially south Slav. Muslims make up about 51%, and they are often called Bosniaks. Eastern Orthodox Christians represent 31%, and are often called Bosnian Serbs. The Roman Catholic population, often called Bosnian Croats, is about 15%. The House will recall that the Bosnian Serbs attacked their neighbours in 1992, seizing large tracts of ground, which they—horrid words—ethnically cleansed of non-Serbs. As the war went on, the Croats and Muslims also carried out their own versions of ethnic cleansing. An estimated 2 million people were driven from their homes by the end of the war.

In September 1992, the United Nations authorised a deployment to Bosnia of a military force called the United Nations protection force. The UN troops were dubbed peacekeepers, but actually they were hardly that. There was no peace to keep in Bosnia and the UNPROFOR did not have the mandate to enforce it either. Although several British Army observers, medics and liaison staff were already on the ground in Sarajevo and elsewhere, Britain’s main contribution to the UNPROFOR was a battlegroup based on the 1st Battalion, the Cheshire Regiment and a reconnaissance squadron of the 9th/12th Lancers. Actually, about 2,400 troops deployed under what was called Operation Grapple in November 1992. Some might recall that I was the unfortunate British battlegroup commander.

Since then, British military personnel have been involved in Bosnia one way or another, and 59 service personnel have lost their lives. Among those deaths was my escort driver, Lance Corporal Wayne Edwards, and my interpreter, Dobrila Kalaba. Both were shot in the head by snipers, and their loss still haunts me as I was responsible for them, or responsible for where they were.

The war, which started in 1991, shortly before I was first there, continued until the massacre of Srebrenica in July 1995 and ended with the Dayton peace accords in 1996. That stopped the fighting and established a triumvirate of uneasy power sharing between the three major sides: Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks. Dayton was supposed to last only a few years until politics could be adjusted to make Bosnia a somewhat democratic and viable state, but the Dayton arrangements have become the status quo, and they are cracking at the seams.

For several years now, the Bosnian Serbs in so-called Republika Srpska have been seriously threatening to break away, and periodically the Bosnian Croats are making similar growling noises. Almost all authorities on the region believe that if that happens, we could easily see the renewal of civil war. Between 1992 and 1996, approximately 200,000 people were killed in the Bosnian civil war and, as I have mentioned, 2 million people were displaced from their homes. Please, God, that tragedy must not be repeated.

[Alicia Kearns]

A number of us in the House speak regularly on this issue, and I fear that sometimes colleagues feel that it is a repeated mantra and we are just fearful for no reason or there is not an escalation. My right hon. Friend mentioned Dodik’s secessionist policies; Dodik has now introduced a new law that disapplies to Republika Srpska the Constitutional Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina’s rulings. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is the most acute threat to the Dayton agreement that we have ever seen? When we raise our voices in the House and say we are concerned, it is because of meaningful changes that put at risk peace on the ground.

[Bob Stewart]

I thank my hon. Friend, who is a very good friend, for intervening on an extremely pertinent point to which I will return in a little while.

I believe that we, the British, are in a good position to influence what happens in Bosnia. Our reputation is high as a result of the actions of our diplomats, soldiers and politicians over the years. In that respect, I should mention my very good friend, the late Lord Paddy Ashdown, who was the High Representative. He was outstanding, and his reputation for dealing with very tricky situations remains untouched by anyone else since. When I visit Bosnia, people always say to me that they wish Paddy was still there. In my experience, the one thing that Bosnians respect is well-motivated and professional people who are not corrupt, who are on the ground, know what they are doing and are prepared to act. Paddy Ashdown was certainly that.

I do not suppose it will come as a surprise to colleagues that our armed forces fit the bill quite well too. Currently, we have very few military forces on the ground in Bosnia and we do not contribute to the so-called EUFOR, the European Union Force in Bosnia, which is utterly and completely useless and does nothing but wander around the country flag-waving, sitting in vehicles and sending back irrelevant reports. I gather we have a few staff officers at the nascent NATO headquarters recently established there, although for some extraordinary reason I was not allowed to visit the place when I was there recently.

I have been to Bosnia three times in the past 12 months. For several years I have argued that it would send a significant signal were we to send a British battlegroup to Bosnia, perhaps under NATO command. I suggest this again, and it should happen soon—especially as there is growing evidence of the increasing malign influence of Russia among Bosnian Serbs.

As I care about Bosnia, I find it a particular tragedy that around 100,000 people normally leave the country every year, out of a population of 3.4 million. They are predominantly young, well-trained people. Imagine if a similar proportion—about 3%—of our young in the UK were to leave each year: it would be a disaster for our country and for our future. Bosnia is heavily bleeding the very people who should be the future of the country. Those people would not be leaving if they believed they could have a decent job and raise their families in a society that was fair and not corrupt; I am afraid that corruption remains endemic in Bosnia.

I know that our ambassador and Ministers, especially the Prime Minister’s trade envoy for the region, my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers)—who was here but has disappeared; I did not warn him that I was going to refer to him—are fully aware of the situation, and my hon. Friend works really hard on it. On that point, let me pay credit to my very good friend, the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, who sets aside quite a lot of her time for caring about what happens in the Balkans, but for that reason she has been pilloried and threatened. I point out to the House that we have a brave lady here, who stands up and speaks for people and tries to help them.

Obviously, Bosnia remains personal to me. Our armed forces paid a blood price to help the people there. I remember one of my soldiers saying, when I told him that we might have to withdraw because those were the orders I was getting, “We can’t leave this place, sir—these people, these women and children, these men. They would be massacred if we weren’t here. We’ve got to help them; we’re not leaving.” I thought, “My God, I’m going to have a mutiny.”

I think the people of Bosnia are superb, in all three so-called ethnic-religious groups. The decent people of Bosnia just want to be given the chance to live their lives in safety, to have their children educated and their politics work, and for corruption not be endemic. We lost 57 British personnel trying to help them do that. They must not have died in vain. We should do all we can to help the people of Bosnia.

UK-Taiwan Friendship and Co-operation

Debate between Alicia Kearns and Bob Stewart

Thursday 10th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart]

My very good and hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have said in the Chamber before that if China was to develop a model much like Taiwan, it would be to the benefit of China. Taiwan is the beacon. It is a hugely successful economy. It is good news that there are some 13,000 Taiwanese students in British universities, with 4,000 at postgraduate level. By way of return, which I think is very interesting, there are an increasing number of British students studying in Taiwan. They are mainly learning Mandarin, of course.

[Alicia Kearns]

Earlier, the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee rightly raised Confucius Institutes. Members may not know that the country with the highest number of Confucius Institutes per head of population is Scotland. That should be of grave concern. Does my right hon. Friend think that, given that Taiwanese people speak Mandarin and write a higher level of more ancient Chinese, we could perhaps look to them to provide more education in Mandarin in this country? Let me make one other quick point on drawing comparisons. Does he find it interesting that the Chinese Government have felt the need to sanction both Taiwanese and British parliamentarians? How shameful it is that they continue to attack our democracies.

[Bob Stewart]

The answer to both of my hon. Friend’s questions is yes and yes. I totally agree. I note that President Tsai Ing-wen has committed Taiwan to having Mandarin and English as dual official languages within eight years, which is tremendous.

I am conscious of time, and I have banged on for longer than I thought I would. [Hon. Members: “Never!”] I always do, for far too long. In summary, we and all people in the world who think like us should do everything we can to defend the democracy and values of Taiwan. Its security challenges and survival as a thriving, successful model mean a great deal to us and to the world.

Christmas Adjournment

Debate between Alicia Kearns and Bob Stewart

Thursday 16th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart]

My right hon. Friend is so right; we can make a really big difference here. In my time in Bosnia two years before Srebrenica, we managed to get to Srebrenica in eastern Bosnia. It took us four days. The only reason I went there was because I heard people pleading on commercial radio for someone to come and help them and stop them being killed. The Bosnian Serb army had just about surrounded Srebrenica and Konjević Polje. We got there. I recall about 20 people killed around us. A couple of my soldiers were wounded, but no one was killed. After a few weeks, when we got about 2,000 people out, mainly women and children, we were ordered to withdraw. I did not want to withdraw, but we were ordered to withdraw. Now, is it not weird that if Republika Srpska splits away, Srebrenica will be in that part of Republika Srpska?

[Alicia Kearns]

I thank my right hon. and gallant Friend for the point he is making. Does he agree that one of the most important reasons why Republika Srpska cannot break away, and why we must maintain the territorial integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is that if it does, that would be officially to mandate ethnic cleansing? It would be to say that if someone ethnically cleanses and commits genocide, they can wait 20 years and we will allow them to break away and celebrate their ethnic cleansing, because they will have succeeded in their goal. That would be utterly wrong, and we must stand firm against that.

[Bob Stewart]

I entirely agree with my very good friend; she is so right.

Paddy Ashdown once saw President Tuđman draw a map on a menu and divide it in half, saying “That half is Serb and that half is Croat.” Paddy Ashdown asked, “Where do the Muslims go?” I will come to that.

It would be a bit rich if Srebrenica were in a breakaway section of Bosnia. What happened at Srebrenica was the catalyst that caused the international community, led by the United Sates, to take Bosnia seriously, and the Dayton peace accords were the result. They were signed in November 1995 and they achieved their immediate objective—they stopped the killing and they preserved the territorial integrity of the state—but the political arrangements for Bosnia were diabolical.

Dayton bequeathed an unworkable constitution and a hugely complex, multi-layered system of government presided over by, would you believe, a triumvirate of Presidents—Bosnian, Croat and Muslim—who adopted the primary role of lead President once every eight months in rotation. That system was meant to last for only a few years, but it has now stumbled on for 26 years.

All this is unravelling at an exceedingly fast pace. The President of Republika Srpska, Milorad Dodik, has put plans in place through the Parliament of Republika Srpska to quit the federation and thus reduce Bosnia and Herzegovina in area by 49%. On Friday 10 December, after our debate the previous day, Republika Srpska formally adopted a set of resolutions to initiate the process of withdrawing from Bosnia and Herzegovina’s state institutions, including the armed forces, the taxation authorities and even the intelligence agencies.

It is for that reason that I come back to the Chamber once again to talk about Bosnia. I hope I am not being too much of a pain in the bottom, but we have to know what is happening and we have to stop what might happen. I am sorry if I keep banging on, but someone has to, and many hon. Members agree with me.

Dodik’s move represents the first step towards formal secession, and it establishes a timeline of six months. We are talking about June next year, which is very soon, and a Greater Serbia could result. I get that a lot of Serbs would like that, but it would be a disaster for the area. I firmly believe that such a move would have a domino effect on the remaining Bosnian territory. It would certainly embolden Croat nationalists such as the leader of the main nationalist HDZ party, Dragan Čović, who would very much like to see Bosnian Croat independence, too.

It seems there is some sort of close collaboration between Čović and Dodik, who have been pressing very hard for changes to electoral laws that would favour the Croats and the Serbs and would give them disproportionate representation in Bosnia. Everyone in Bosnia is South Slav, but by religion 30% are Serb, 15% are Croat and more than 50% are Bosnian Muslims. That is 1.8 million Bosnian Muslims. Bosnia matters to us because, if the Croats and the Serbs were to divide the country in half, I suspect we would find thousands of Bosnian Muslims seeking an alternative home in Europe, and I am pretty sure which direction they might well take. It matters to us in a practical way. We might find we had a heck of a lot more refugees—and they would be refugees; they are not displaced persons if they are fleeing their homeland because of persecution.

In the early 1990s, the international community, including our country, suffered from a paralysis about the Bosnian situation, underpinned perhaps by the fact that people just could not or did not want to get to grips with it. We cannot allow that to happen again. For me, there are two lessons from the 1990s that are directly applicable to what is happening now. First, dividing Bosnia will not work, and secondly—this is where we come in, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) have said—the only way to get a solution is for the international community to be involved.

What can we do? I will largely repeat what I said in last week’s debate, with a few changes. First, we have to sustain Dayton at least until we get something to replace it. It is not great, but it has stopped people dying, and we need to keep it limping on until we get a better arrangement. Secondly, Mr Christian Schmidt, the High Representative, requires our absolute and unequivocal support. He must be given all the power we can allow to help him to stop the country going backwards—that means from everyone in the international community.

Thirdly, we need another Dayton. Maybe we can call it Dayton II. I would not mind it being in Lancaster House, because that is a good place to sort out the international community. It requires the involvement of the United Nations, yes, and that would be a problem on the Security Council, since Russia is not being particularly helpful and China is mixing it a bit too. It requires the United States, it requires the European Union and of course it requires Serbia and Russia. We must also have the presence of the Bosnian Serbs. Representatives from Republika Srpska have to be there. They were not there at Dayton I, as I recall.

Fourthly, a point I totally agree with, we should lead. The European Union is at sixes and sevens over Bosnia. Some of its members openly support Republika Srpska, and it has given Republika Srpska quite a massive subsidy. That has encouraged the Bosnian Serbs to believe they will have support from the European Union, or elements of it. On the subject of Bosnia, the European Union certainly does not speak with one voice and it is largely hamstrung—it can do nothing. Take the United States, which as far as I can ascertain has largely gone back to its traditional, isolationist-type approach: “Europe, sort yourself out,” might be the maxim. So we must lead. This country must and can lead.

Fifth and finally—I have a right to say this—we must be prepared to send our soldiers to stop people dying in Bosnia; to support any political initiative, of course. Politics comes first, but sometimes peacekeeping requires someone on horseback. We have a great man to help us in the Balkans now. Air Chief Marshall Sir Stuart Peach was appointed as the Prime Minister’s special envoy to the western Balkans last week. He has recently finished as chairman of the military committee in NATO headquarters, and as such was the highest ranking officer in the alliance, even above Supreme Allied Commander Europe. I cannot think of anyone more suited to help Bosnia than Stuart Peach. We also have a very distinguished ambassador in Sarajevo. Matthew Field has been there since August 2018. He is hugely respected. People in Bosnia have told me how much they respect our ambassador. I know Matt well, and his experience and wise counsel should be used. Messrs Peach and Field are extremely well qualified to help Bosnia, and I urge the Government as well as this House to totally support them in their de facto and most crucial mission, which is to save Bosnia from another disastrous war.

[Alicia Kearns]

As my right hon. Friend mentions what the Government could do, is he aware that Republika Srpska has raised £30 million on the London stock exchange to fund their debt since April? That is something that the Government can look at. That is something that the Treasury is doing. We know that Serbia is funding guns and arms to go into Republika Srpska. We know that Serbia gets those arms from Russia. So clearly there is something going wrong when we are enabling Republika Srpska to fund itself from within London.

[Bob Stewart]

I did not know that. It is very important. I am finishing very shortly, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Holocaust Memorial Day

Debate between Alicia Kearns and Bob Stewart

Thursday 23rd January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Alicia Kearns]

I agree. It was a privilege to see the work of the UN.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I led the first troops to go into Srebenica in April 1993. My men were surrounded. About 20 people were killed and a couple of my soldiers were wounded. We established Srebrenica, and as a result of that it was declared a safe zone. I am sorry that this intervention is going on a bit, but I want to put the record straight. I pleaded to keep British soldiers in Srebrenica because I felt that we could protect the people, but we were ordered out and two years later—after we had left—the massacre occurred. I am sure that if we had been present, the massacre of 8,400 men and boys might not have occurred. But let us get the record straight; the people who went in took huge risks and we did not want to leave, because we felt that our duty was to protect people.

[Alicia Kearns]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, which expresses far more eloquently than I ever could the exact sentiment that I share with him.

When I went to Bosnia, I saw the work that the UN is still doing to bring together the remnants of those who were massacred—piecing together small bones to work out who had been buried. Bodies were purposely moved from place to place to make it harder to prove that these people had been murdered. I attended a funeral for those whose bodies had been brought back together, and I met the widows of Srebrenica. I encourage everyone in this House to go to Bosnia in order to experience what it is like there and to learn as much as they can.

There is so much more that we all need to do to eviscerate hatred and division in our communities. We must refuse to see history repeat itself. We each have a duty to change the level of debate at our dinner tables, in the shops, on WhatsApp, on the tube and within our own families. That is how we change things. None of us can stand idly by; we have a duty to do more. It is only by talking to each other, and by creating the understanding and empathy that comes through that dialogue, that we build stronger communities who refuse to accept hatred and division.

Violent extremism feeds on the everyday indifference and hatred that we refuse to challenge—that we hear and dismiss or, worse, laugh away. During my career I have seen what that hatred breeds: the demonisation, violence, torture, rape and murder. No more. We must all say, “Never again”. We must all commit to building empathy and understanding, and to saying no to hatred. That is the commitment that I make today, and that I hope all my colleagues and everyone in the country will make. This country deserves better, the world deserves better and we need to raise our voices because we have the privilege and ability to do so.