Criminal Justice Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Debate between Alex Norris and Vicky Ford

Committee stage
Thursday 25th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

I just want to say how incredibly grateful and pleased I am to see this language before us in the Bill. As the hon. Member for Bootle just said, I am one of the Members who has campaigned on the issue of spiking for a number of years, alongside the great leadership of my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester.

Chelmsford has some fantastic nightclubs, with a great reputation for being safe. I do not want to put people off going out and having a great time, but when spiking occurs it can have a horrific impact on the victim. We have said for a long time that the language needs to be modernised to make it crystal clear that spiking is a criminal offence, and new clause 45 does that. That helps not only to protect victims but, almost more importantly, to deter perpetrators. We want to stop the crime, so that people do not have to become victims. There are too many victims—mostly women, but it can impact men—of this crime.

Will the Minister clarify that, when it comes to how the substance is administered, the provision will cover not only a drink or a jab, but spiking through vapes, which we are hearing more about? I thank the Government for the number of measures that they have announced to go alongside the provision, such as trialling new ways to test drinks so that people can see whether something has been put in them. That would also help to eradicate this crime. We also need more public awareness so that victims know, if they have been spiked—often they are not in a condition to do anything about it immediately, as it can have such an awful impact—that something as simple as collecting a urine sample can make so much difference to getting the evidence to hold people to account.

[Alex Norris]

I rise to add our support to new clause 45, which is important. Spiking is a coward’s crime, as is potting, but we know that it is a stock in trade for a very small number of people who can have a devastating impact on people’s lives. It is an exceptionally harmful and dangerous practice. I congratulate colleagues on both the Opposition Benches and the Government Benches, as well as the Government themselves, on bringing the measure forward.

Legislation is clearly only part of the process. We need cultural change and strong messages. People need to hold each other to account and tell each other how important it is not to do things like this, because they are so dangerous. The right hon. Member for Chelmsford made the important point—we will hear the Minister’s response—that, to the extent that it can be, the law should be agnostic on the method of transmission. As technology changes, those who choose to do such things for their own ends will use whatever methods they can. That spiking could be done by vaping was new to me, but it seems obvious that that would be possible. I am keen to know how the legislation can keep pace with that.

Criminal Justice Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Alex Norris and Vicky Ford

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Norris]

“Proportionality” is the exact word here. It is about finding balance, as I say, between individual liberty and our collective safety. If we are saying that, in all instances where the police have a photo of a possible offender, we have complete comfort about their searching the entire DVLA database to try and identify that person—well, that is a very significant change. I would argue strongly that that is different from saying, “Well, we think we might know who it is; let’s apply for the driving licence of an individual.” I think that the public would see a big difference.

The issue becomes even more important given the pace of technological change; we have been talking about retrospective facial recognition technologies here, but live facial recognition technologies are developing at breakneck speed: cameras can scan huge crowds of people, check who they are and flag persons of concern. The Minister, I think, has a degree of enthusiasm for that technology; it is a plank of his plans around violence against retail workers, and shop theft more widely.

I recently visited South Wales police because I wanted to understand the use of this technology. With your indulgence, Ms Bardell, I will take this opportunity to put on the record my thanks to the police and crime commissioner for South Wales, Alun Michael, for his work. He is stepping down from public office at May’s elections after more than half a century in different posts. He has sat in the chair that I occupy; he has sat in the chair that the Minister occupies; he has sat in Cabinet, and he is one of the few PCCs to have served the entire 12 years of that post’s existence. His is a life of extraordinary public service to the UK and Wales, and to Cardiff, and we have been very lucky to have him.

As I was saying, South Wales police is very much in the vanguard of facial recognition technology. In a recent oral questions, the Minister graciously made reference to the work of South Wales police in this area, particularly the oversight that it is doing through the PCC’s office, which may well be a good model—in fact, it very much is. However, it is not without controversy, partly because it is in the vanguard and that sort of disruption is generating significant public interest.

There was quite a bit of public debate around one of the events in question: a Beyoncé concert at the Principality Stadium. That was a huge event. It had incredible hype; people really did everything to try to get tickets. Live facial recognition technology was used at that concert. The police advertised it, defined a public watch list, and said, “We are looking for anyone who is a known terrorist, in light of the Manchester bombing, and for paedophiles, in view of the likely attendees of the concert.” That probably finds the right balance: the public are informed and there is a defined watch list. There is a degree of common sense there.

As I said, what South Wales police have put in place, and what I think we are going to see across the country, is a model where we have civilian balance to the operational independence of the police and where the public’s representative, as we have in England and Wales in the form of police and crime commissioners, is able to know what is happening and to have public oversight. However, there is a real risk around how that sort of technology could be combined with the powers in this clause. The use of live facial recognition technologies could be combined with the entire DVLA photo database for the purposes of live blanket surveillance. I do not think that is what the Government want, but I do think that we have to hear that they do not. Relying on Henry VIII powers makes it even worse.

It is welcome that, according to proposed new section 71A of the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000, a code of practice will be issued. That is really important, and speaks to my amendment 60, which is a pretty basic attempt to put some degree of parliamentary guardrail on to this new technology and its use in law enforcement. It states that once the Bill has received Royal Assent, a report on its usage must be published by the Secretary of State on an annual basis. I will be honest: I am not precious about the form that that should take, but I am precious about technology that has moved at great pace and with which there has been very little parliamentary engagement at all.

Stronger guardrails should be set. We have to be really cautious about other changes we might make, such as those in clause 21, that would mean that a significant database could be used for proactive surveillance of people who have never done anything other than apply for a provisional licence. That point could be held, but we would have to argue with the public and build public confidence around it. We would have to be shown the evidence for the effectiveness and the operational cases. I do not think the Government have done that.

My hope is that I am taking the issue far beyond what the Government intend. I will be very glad if that is the case. Part of the problem is that we are relying on regulations when we have no idea what their form will be. I stop at this point. I hope the Minister will be able to give the Committee some comfort.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

I have listened extremely carefully to the shadow Minister and the Minister. I take issues of data protection and privacy very seriously, but I also believe that members of the public expect us to try to keep them safe, and expect the police to be able to use technology to try to keep them safe.

I listened to what the hon. Member for Nottingham North said about the facial recognition technology used in south Wales. Those same south Wales cameras were used last half-term in my constituency of Chelmsford and in Southend in Essex. As a result, a number of individuals were arrested, including somebody who had come into Chelmsford from outside and was wanted for a very high-profile sexual offence. What the Minister has been saying about being able to use this technology to arrest rapists is not hypothetical; it has happened, and it happened in my constituency in Chelmsford.

[Alex Norris]

I am sorry to ask the right hon. Member to give way, because I have said so much—but I guess the point I was making about the Beyoncé concert was about having a defined watch list of people known and suspected of having done significant crimes. Such measures feel like a proportionate tactic to apprehend them, but is that enough for us to say that therefore everybody’s faces ought to be in play, even though the vast majority have never done anything wrong?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alex Norris and Vicky Ford

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Vicky Ford]

This is a terrible tragedy. So far this year, we have provided more than £72 million of additional support to countries in the region, which is helping about 8 million people. We played a vital role in convening a roundtable in Geneva that raised about $400 million. Last week, I wrote to the president of the World Bank to urge it to mobilise further funding urgently. I will meet representatives of the Disasters Emergency Committee later this week to discuss further steps.

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

My constituent Godwin Suh from Bafut in Cameroon, who now lives in Nottingham, came to see me. He described the political violence that, as anglophones, he and his family have suffered. His brother is missing, his nieces and nephews have been hospitalised, and lately his house there has been badly damaged by Government forces. Will the Minister for Africa meet me and Godwin to hear more about the human rights challenges that many face in north-west and south-west Cameroon?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alex Norris and Vicky Ford

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What recent assessment she has made of the human rights situation in Cameroon.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Vicky Ford)]

The human rights situation in the north-west and south-west regions of Cameroon is deeply concerning. Around 2.3 million people need humanitarian support and my Department has planned £5 million of humanitarian aid this year, which will help those affected by the crisis. We are urging all actors, including the Cameroonian Government, to remain engaged in efforts to find a peaceful resolution to the crisis.

[Alex Norris]

The Biya Government’s hard-handed approach to calls for reform from those living in the Anglophone region has led to violence, 765,000 persons being displaced from their homes, and 800,000 children out of school. We have a long-standing connection to Cameroon and I am glad to hear from the Minister about efforts so far, but will she make a full-throated commitment today to a peaceful resolution to the crisis, and say what diplomatic efforts will be made by her and her colleagues over the next few months to bring it about?