Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Bolton) Regulations 2020

Alex Norris Excerpts

Tuesday 29th September 2020 General Committees

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister and her colleague, the Minister for Health, the hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), together with my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) and I are in a sort of Monday-Tuesday rotation for these statutory instruments. The SIs are broadly similar, but each one is exceptionally important to the local communities that they affect. There may therefore be some repetition in my speech, as I dare say there was in the Minister’s. Nevertheless, it is important that we discuss these matters fully, and that is what I will seek to do.

I always start these debates with a homily about the nature of opposition in coronavirus times; we are always a bit in the Goldilocks hot seat. I think it was last Wednesday night that I was on Talk Radio getting beaten up because we were too supportive of the Government and the lockdown regulations. On Sunday, I was then on Sky News being beaten up for playing party politics with our opposition to some elements of the restrictive measures. Such is life.

I say that to show that we genuinely treat these things on their merits. We want the Government to succeed; we want to get out of this coronavirus era, however long it lasts. We want to get back to the football—frankly, it is not a night out if it finishes at 10 pm. We do want the Government to succeed, but there are times when our good will and support are stretched, especially when it seems that the Government are losing control of the virus.

Over the weekend, there was another foreseeable but not particularly well-managed situation around universities in policy terms, but there was also chaotic communication, with successive Ministers unable to say the same thing in succession. Similarly, even this morning Ministers on national media were unable to stand up the messages given out yesterday in the Chamber. That makes things really hard, as do the regulations before us.

I will say a lot of the things that I have said before. Debating regulations 19 days after they came into force is a fool’s errand and a waste of all our time, other than the fact that it is really important that we do debate them. We cannot change anything; we will not divide over them. Of course we cannot—the horse is multiple fields down by now.

We appreciate the need for efficient action, particularly at the beginning of a crisis, but it is absurd that this far into the crisis we have still not managed to debate one of these statutory instruments prior to its coming into force. When we do reach an opportunity to debate them, it is not even days but weeks or months later— 19 days in this case. That is a regular pattern that has been raised many times by Members of all parties and many times in the other place.

The rubber will perhaps hit the road on this discussion tomorrow, because Parliament is not here to rubber-stamp Government decisions. Executive decisions are not meant to be rubber-stamped by the legislature many weeks later, but, as I say, we are here and there is not much choice. We have a responsibility to make sure that the Government do the best by the country and that our constituents have maximum confidence in what is done. We must be able to demonstrate that we properly scrutinise the decisions that are being taken, but we cannot say that at the moment.

When I raised the matter last week, the Minister asked whether I would be willing to work seven days a week in order to scrutinise legislation. That made me think of an American revolutionary, Nathan Hale, who, just before he was executed for spying, said,

“I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.”

I can probably bastardise that to say, “My only regret is that I have only seven days to give for my community.” Whatever the day, whatever the hour, if it is important enough for us to discuss and it means we can get upstream, I would be willing to meet—even on a Sunday. We are discussing regulations from 19 days ago and new ones were announced yesterday. If meeting on a Sunday is what it takes to discuss yesterday’s new regulations in a timely manner, I absolutely would be willing to do that.

Nevertheless, I recognise that last week we were talking about statutory instruments that were nine and a half weeks old, and the instrument we are discussing today is only two and a half weeks old. Perhaps the Minister can give us her thoughts on that, but I hope it demonstrates that we are catching up, in which case I recognise that and am grateful to the Minister and her team for it.

Similarly last week, the Minister mentioned that the statutory instruments were in accordance with the Coronavirus Act 2020. I do not dispute that that is the case with today’s instrument, but I gently say that that is not a particularly high bar. When the instruments are so badly out of date, the Act is weakened. Ahead of tomorrow’s discussions we will all have received emails. There is a lot of bad information out there about coronavirus. Some of the emails we get are perhaps less based in fact, but the emails we are getting at the moment about the Act are very well meant. They are evidence based, with serious discussions about civil liberties in the UK. Concern is growing because there is a sense that Parliament has not got a grip, which is very much the point that I am making this morning. Again, we will support the renewal of the Act tomorrow—what else could we do?—but we will seek to amend it to give a greater sense of transparency.

I know that there are other high profile suggestions centred on giving Parliament an automatic proactive say. I am attracted to that, but I have no confidence that it will be delivered, even if the Government are bounced into it. Yesterday the Secretary of State said,

“I strongly agree with the need for us in this House to have the appropriate level of scrutiny… The aim is to provide the House with the opportunity to scrutinise in advance through regular statements and debates, questioning the Government’s scientific advisers more regularly—that has already started—gaining access to local data”.—[Official Report, 28 September 2020; Vol. 681, c. 22.]

Even for the Secretary of State, that is a classic of the genre: suggesting agreement, but not actually agreeing; suggesting something new, but offering the status quo. I do not know if that will wash with Government Back Benchers—I would be amazed if it did—because that is what we have at the moment.

What we are talking about is significant restrictions on people’s liberties that are discussed in the past tense. I recognise that the Government have frequently made themselves available through statements, and Mr Speaker has facilitated urgent questions or general debates such as the one we had yesterday. However, it is not the chance to talk about coronavirus that has colleagues concerned, but the chance to discuss significant and important restrictions on people’s liberties, which we do not have at the moment.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. As my hon. Friend said, we have debated the points in hindsight over many weeks now.

What is frustrating for the public and those of us representing the public is the fact that this legislation is being debated retrospectively. There is so much inconsistency and incoherence in so much of the Government policy, and that is the frustrating thing. That is why we need to get on the front foot and lay such legislation in advance.

[Alex Norris]

I agree with that. It is good for all of us—good for parliamentary democracy, but good for the Government too—to have the regulations and inconsistencies aired. We would hope that that is the way in which things will be improved. My hon. Friend’s point also reflects on the consistent and regular use of the negative procedure for these statutory instruments. Obviously, that is now very pertinent in the light of what we will discuss tomorrow—renewing the Act or not—but it is hard not to notice that the whole suite of Brexit-related legislation is wired in exactly the same way. The Government rely on these powers, and on secondary legislation approved via the negative procedure. Many of those who are opposing this method today and tomorrow have championed it for four years, so it is a little late to take it slowly. That is not Nathan Hale; it is Girls Aloud. We should have real concern that this is the nature of government in Britain for at least the next 12 to 18 months; decisions by the Executive are subsequently looked at by Parliament when it is a bit late. That should discomfort all of us.

Again, I would be interested in the Minister’s reflections on this situation. As I say, it would be hard to get in front of every single decision, but we should be trying to get in front of as many as possible. We would not want to bog down the process so that effective interventions happened in a less timely manner, but we could at least get away from introducing them 15 minutes before they are implemented. Again, that reflects a sense of chaos rather than order and organisation. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on that.

It goes without saying that the situation is now becoming more challenging. The regulations work, and our approach to tackling the virus works, for as long as people are willing to comply with them. In the beginning phases, people did incredible work and made personal sacrifices during lockdown. I fundamentally believe that that is a mark of the character of British people. That is the way in which people will continue to attack these challenging circumstances for as long as they have confidence in the measures that are being taken and they have a sense that other people—both their neighbours and at a national level—are complying too. Things like grouse shooting or Barnard Castle chip away at public opinion and make people think, “You know what? Forget about this. I’m just going to do it and see what happens.” That we cannot have, because our approach will fall apart.

Like the Government, the Opposition have said before that when infection rates rise, restrictions should increase. That is particularly pertinent in this case. We have all seen the significant and rapid rise in infection rates in Bolton, which is a concern for everybody, so of course these restrictions were necessary. There is an interesting nugget at regulation 3.1 that might be helpful for us: the closure of bars and restaurants at 10 o’clock. Of course, that is now our national reality. Again, we did not dispute this last week. We know that this is not something that has been built on SAGE advice or guidance; it is something that is not really based on evidence. I know the Government have relied on evidence from Antwerp in Belgium—that was certainly the line last Wednesday—which stretches credulity a bit, but Bolton might actually be a better example. I would be keen to know, because regulation 2.2 says that the reviews must be fortnightly and start on 24 September, which was last week. The Minister said that a review had already taken place, so it would be interesting to know what the impact of the closure at 10 o’clock was. Again, the picture that was painted by the Minister was one of younger people from diverse geographical parts of the borough, so it is probably fair to say that it is linked to the night-time economy. What has been the impact of the 10 o’clock closure? It might actually be the best evidence that we have for the national curfew.

Finally, I am really pleased hear that the local consultation was good in the case of Bolton, particularly given how rapidly things changed there. In relation to the new regulations announced for the north-east from the Dispatch Box last night—that is the right way to do it—given that we seem to have this conversation every time, it is hard not to be struck that the leader of Newcastle City Council,  Councillor Nick Forbes, said, “We have been having conversations, but this is the first we have heard of it.” I know him well and he is a very sensible, practical and not particularly dogmatic or partisan individual. I am glad to hear it is not the case in Bolton, but such a lack of consultation will not do for public confidence. Perhaps the Minister could reiterate that there is a genuine commitment to working in partnership and that local authorities will not find out about new regulations in the news rather than through conversations, even if the Government, of course, need the final say. Again, the Opposition do not intend to divide the Committee, but there are many elements that could be done better.