Equalities Legislation: Guide Dogs

Debate between Alex Chalk and Stephen Lloyd

Wednesday 5th September 2018 Westminster Hall

[Alex Chalk]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that full intervention. I agree with everything she says. To pick up that point, which was also made by the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), training and awareness are critical, but there is a disconnect with the enforcement regime in respect of taxi drivers, where the police and local authority can intervene to bring a prosecution and a conviction can lead to a fine of up to £1,000. If the breach relates to a bricks-and-mortar premises rather than a vehicular premises, the enforcement regime is completely different. It seems to me, and indeed to those people with disabilities whom I have spoken to, that that is a distinction without a difference. It is just as humiliating and dehumanising to be refused access to a restaurant or a café, and yet it is far more difficult to seek redress. An individual who has been wronged in that way must be supported to seek redress that is proportionate and streamlined. It should not require an individual potentially to get legal advice or issue proceedings, at considerable personal cost, or to get witness statements, an allocation to the fast-track, defences and all that sort of thing, which is a stressful and time-consuming process. The system needs to be more victim-centred and streamlined.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this important debate. I have been involved in these issues for over 20 years. Equality legislation is crystal clear that disabled people and guide dog owners cannot be discriminated against in a range of areas; unfortunately, it is also clear that since the 2012 changes about applying for an adjudication against discrimination came into force, the number of cases has dropped by 60%. I am keen to hear from the hon. Gentleman and the Minister how they think that should be addressed, so that the clear rules on discrimination, which would stop discrimination against owners of guide dogs and assistance dogs, can be properly enforced and those discriminating against them can be properly charged.

[Alex Chalk]

The hon. Gentleman is right. There is a wider point here about access to justice—a point made by Lord Reed in a recent Supreme Court case in the context of employment tribunals. He said that unless there is proper access to justice, the whole process of election of MPs to pass laws risks becoming “a meaningless charade”.

There is an issue about whether people can get before courts, but my point is slightly different: should that be the only credible remedy and recourse for the wronged party? I do not think it should. The system as it relates to taxi drivers recognises the fact that it is wrong to place the entire burden on the individual. With taxi drivers, the police can get involved; they can go along and say to an individual, “Did you realise that it is a breach of the Equality Act not to allow that person into your taxi with a guide dog? I may or may not decide to press this and bring proceedings for a £1,000 fine.” However, the police and, indeed, councils do not have that discretion when it comes to bricks-and-mortar premises. That strikes me as inconsistent, and it means that the individual is faced with the dilemma of whether they want to spend a considerable amount of time, effort and stress, and head off to the county court to issues proceedings, when ultimately the remedy may be relatively modest from a financial point of view.

In my experience, individuals want to seek justice—that is to say, the breach being marked, a record being made and advice or training being given as required. Crucially, if the premises becomes a repeat offender, it must be possible to make that clear and for consequences to follow for the business’s livelihood. That is what justice is.