Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting)

Debate between Alex Barros-Curtis and Sarah Bool

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Barros-Curtis]

I am grateful for that intervention. I point the hon. Member to proposed new subsection (4), which reiterates that the Secretary of State “must consult” before any such regulations can be made. I am sure that will assuage his concerns about whoever the future Secretary of State may be, whether they are from this side of the House or, God forbid, the other side in a few decades’ time.

I will point out a couple of issues about the drafting of the amendments. Although I understand the position of Opposition Members, I think the proposals inadvertently cause issues and risk causing more confusion than may have been intended. For example, does

“an NHS property or hospital building”

include private healthcare providers that are undertaking NHS work either on NHS premises or off-site? What about subcontractors? When the amendment mentions

“a nursery, school, college or higher education premises”,

are we talking about where premises have had to be vacated because of the RAAC—reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete—crisis and where children are being taught in portacabins in a council car park, one or two miles away from the original site? These definitions are lacking and may inadvertently cause gaps in the application of the measures, if the amendments were successful. What about premises used for youth prisons? Should that be captured or not, given what was said about protecting children from the dangers of smoking?

Notwithstanding the fact that I understand the intention behind the amendments and what Opposition Members have said, I think the drafting may inadvertently cause issues and undermine what the Minister has said, both here and at the Dispatch Box, about the parameters in which this set of regulations would be brought in. Those would be underscored by consultation and the commitments that have been made at the Dispatch Box. Although I appreciate and understand hon. Members’ comments, I suggest that the amendments are not necessary, for the reasons I have outlined, and I would encourage them, if the amendments are not withdrawn, perhaps to vote against them if they are pushed to a Division.

[Sarah Bool]

I respect the points made by the hon. Member for Cardiff West, because I understand that we do not want any unintended consequences. However, I would counter that by saying that although we perhaps need better definitions—that may be something we can consider—clause 136, as drafted, is incredibly wide, and any of the assurances that have been given to hospitality are merely words. There is absolutely no carve-out for the hospitality sector as this stands.

As much as I think the Minister is honourable in his intentions, unfortunately, we all know that we can go only on the law in front of us in black and white, and there is currently no security for the hospitality sector in this regard. We need to be incredibly clear about this with the hospitality sector, and we need the exclusion. One of the bigger concerns is that if people are not able to smoke—perhaps in a pub garden—it will force them into their homes, where they are actually more likely to drink and smoke more because they are not within that limited capacity of being out in public. We have to think about what the dangers are. Are we actually forcing people to take up worse habits in their private residence than if we allow them a little bit of flexibility in an open space?

I have a question about NHS properties generally. I appreciate that we want smoke-free places and that one wants to go into hospital and walk past people smoking, but I worry about those who have an addiction. Where do they go if they need to smoke, as they would if they are going through a process of cessation? What ends up happening as a result of all these provisions is that the smokers will just be forced down the road away from the property, but that has not really addressed the issue. We have just pushed the problem a few metres away.

We need to think in the round about how we best achieve our aim, how we deal with addiction, and how we clean up the hospital environment in a balanced and proportionate way. Perhaps the Minister has some other ideas, but I do not like the idea of just pushing some smokers down the road, rather than dealing with the issue at hand.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Alex Barros-Curtis and Sarah Bool

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Bool]

I want to build on the points my hon. Friends have made. As we have said, clause 92 relates to the flavouring of vapes. In the future, we will have to be incredibly agile in regulating in this area. It clearly needs further investigation, because different bodies are all disagreeing on whether we should limit the number of vapes, the flavours or the range and on what is going on. In the written evidence provided to Members, Cancer Research UK, which the shadow Minister mentioned, made some interesting observations, which I will put on record. It says that:

“Current evidence seems to suggest that e-cigarette flavours influence vaping initiation in both young people and adults who smoke. We know that the range of flavours of e-cigarettes are a large part of the appeal for both young people and adults. When taking action on e-cigarette flavours, a balance needs to be struck between dissuading uptake in young people and maintaining an appeal to those who use vapes to quit smoking, so they are not deterred from transitioning away from tobacco”.

I think we all agree with that. It further goes on to say:

“Although we believe there is currently insufficient evidence to justify banning specific e-liquid flavours, as the evidence base related to the role of flavours in youth and adult vaping increases, powers to regulate flavours will be an important lever for Government to use to reduce youth vaping.”

It then says:

“It is important that there is a holistic approach to flavours. If the UK Government is changing the packaging and display of vapes…this will go a long way to reduce the appeal of vapes. Therefore, the Government may not need to go as far when restricting flavours. We believe that restricting the way flavours are described”—

which is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon made—

“rather than banning actual flavours could help reduce the appeal to young people with limited negative impact on adults who smoke. At the very least, CRUK believes that mint, menthol and fruit should remain available as there is evidence that these help adults quit smoking.”

If we go on the basis that, actually, we should limit the way the flavours are described, perhaps one day we will know what unicorn milk actually tastes like.

[Mr Alex Barros-Curtis (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

It is interesting that the hon. Lady points to that evidence, because I have actually been considering it myself, although I am not sure that I entirely agree with some of the ways that Cancer Research UK phrased it. On the point that the hon. Lady has just read out—which, for the record, is paragraph 40 of written evidence TVB18 —does she agree that it does not have to be an either/or and that it could be both?

Ultimately, what I think we are particularly focused on here—setting aside the cessation point with respect to adults—is the attractiveness and the clear advertisement from tobacco companies to children, with these flavours that have absolutely no relevance to adults. Although mint, menthol and fruit may be helpful cessation tools, flavours such as bubble gum are clearly aimed at children, and that is absolutely what we need to stamp out.

[Sarah Bool]

I agree. I think the hon. Member makes a valid point. It is part of the bigger discussion that we have to have, with the ability to be a bit more agile in how we actually decide, because I do not want us to take the wrong approach and have unintended consequences.

Again, that goes to another point that the shadow Minister raised, about what flavours are potentially harmful in themselves. The hon. Member for Cardiff West is right and I take his point about flavours such as bubble gum entirely, but apparently even cinnamon, vanilla and butter are toxic. They are fine for us to eat —butter in moderation, of course—but inhaling them is a different matter. I think it will be very interesting to see what combinations are used and what the impact is, because, apparently, if certain flavours and chemicals are combined, that can actually be even more toxic than before. That is something that the regulations, and some of the research, will have to look into for us.

Interestingly, the Royal College of Physicians also gave its view on this topic in the written evidence. That was along similar lines but slightly different. It says:

“While we know flavours can attract young people to vaping, the use of flavours by adults trying to quit smoking is an integral part of the effectiveness of vaping as a quit aid. We know that many adult smokers report wanting to move away from the taste of tobacco. Other nicotine replacement therapy…products, such as gums and lozenges, also have fruit flavours. The RCP supports limiting the number of flavours available and recommends restricting flavour descriptors. Bland descriptors, alongside limiting the number of flavours and removing those most popular with young people non-smokers from vaping without the unintended consequences of perpetuating smoking for adults.”

I agree with the points that have been made, but I think that we have to be careful about how we decide which flavours are used and their range. I take the point that we often want to move people away from tobacco, because a tobacco-flavoured vape is not pleasant, or so I am told, but my concern is that, if someone do not necessarily have a tobacco-flavoured vape, then with something as nice as peach and mango—which a vaper I know really likes—people will actually vape more than they ever smoked because it is tastier for them. I think we will really have to look into that as well.

I would also like some further clarity from the Minister on clause 92(3) and the clause what regulations the Department is currently thinking about, particularly when it comes to the imports of any of these vaping products.

Finally, subsection (4) that that there will be

“provision for a determination to be made by a person authorised for the purpose by the Secretary of State”

to make the decision on the flavours. Who is in mind to be given those powers? A bit more clarity on that would be much appreciated.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Alex Barros-Curtis and Sarah Bool

Committee stage
Thursday 16th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Bool]

My hon. Friend raises the points that I was going to raise. I did question why clause 28(2)(c) in particular was necessary, because if we ban vending machines there should not be any machines going forward. I want to understand what machines we envisage if they are not going to be vending machines.

[Mr Alex Barros-Curtis (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I thank the Minister for explaining these clauses and I fully support them, but I have two questions pertaining to clause 28.

The first question has already been asked by the hon. Members for Sleaford and North Hykeham and for South Northamptonshire and relates to clause 28(2)(c). Could the Minister explain the interaction between that paragraph and the offences created under clauses 3 and 12? Perhaps this is a catch-all provision, or some hangover from the section that the clause is based on and seeks to replace, which is section 12B of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933.

The other point that I would like the Minister to explain, which has crossover with similar phraseology in earlier clauses, relates to clause 28(4) about a person who is convicted of a relevant offence becoming a persistent offender. In order to determine that they are a persistent offender, it will be important to have accurate record keeping to keep track of any persistent offences. I know this is not a new concept, but I wonder whether he could say more about that in his response. Record keeping will be critical to tackle repeat offenders. Will he ensure, whether by regulations or any other means, that different local authorities share that information? What we do not want is a persistent offender in one local authority moving to another one, setting up shop and repeating those same offences.

[Sarah Bool]

I want to echo that point. The hon. Gentleman is right: if a tenant is a company and that company changes its name, and then moves around, it may be necessary to go back up the structure to see who the ultimate beneficial owner is and to make sure that people are not just using it as a cover. I heartily agree.